DM45 LBS 4

[Dm45]

I don't have all the answers. I have a few. I didn't read this before the meeting. Wish I had.

She came over earlier than expected. I tried to prepare by review materials on listening and validating. Started off good. I had no agenda, no plan of what I wanted to say. Trying not to seem manipulative.

Listened. Asked questions. Stated some things directly. Got accused of manipulation. Got defensive. I believe every time I state my opinions she tells me I am manipulating.

Frustrated. Then, because I felt like I wasn't being heard, I guess I did start to manipulate. More and more. She left in a huff. Now says we will not meet without 3rd party.

Admitted to knowing what's right but doesn't want to leave OM.

I am so ticked I am dizzy.

I'll try to post more later but I just can't think right now.

[Dm45]

More thoughts from my muddled mind. I am calmer now, and sleepy. I just spent an hour on the phone with my pastor. He was pulling positives out of my recount of this morning, amazingly.

He characterized my communication as far less manipulative and bullying than months ago, and said I should look forward to talk w/C present. If I'm not manipulating, but merely stating an opposing opinion, C will call her on it. If I am manipulating, C will call me on it. I expressed my fear of C with W, as I've read on here that MC without commitment to M from both parties is disastrous. He said its not MC, that regardless of R or not, we will always both be parents and need to be able to communicate about the kids. If that helps the R, so be it.

I asked bluntly does she want me to have any say in parenting S16. She said yes. I asked if we dont agree on a matter how should we proceed, she said she didnt know. I said I have clear and strong beliefs on what's best for him, but fear they will be construed as manipulative, or judging. I gradually got them out, gently.

We beat around the bush a while. I said I feel powerless in the situation w/S that I have no say in his parenting. She said not true, I asked what do I have the power to change, and she insisted she didn't know what, but that I still had a say.

Eventually W said coming home would be being "put in her place." I did not bring up coming home. I haven't since before Christmas, maybe thanksgiving. I reminded her of that, that all I want is for R to have a fair shot. If she came home now I would somehow make it work, but I agree w/my pastor, C, and her C that we are not ready to be together. My frustration is, how can we ever be ready if one of us is involved with another person?

W expressed fear that I will never trust her again, and that she will never be able to forgive herself. I reminded her that Christ died to redeem us from this sort of thing (and many more sorts of things) and that anything is possible, and there are countless stories about it happening, books written on how to make it happen.

W said (when i asked her) she wanted to give our family unit a fair shot at surviving. Then said she's not sure if she wants to leave this OM.

W admitted at one point that changing her living situation is actually something she considers from time to time. She said it would be hard (or wouldn't be easy). I said who says things should have to be easy. Pastor pointed out a better way of phrasing that would be more validating..."yes, your feelings are strong and that will be hard to do."

Pastor says she is conflicted and not hell bent on divorce, and that he sees positive changes in me.

As I was typing this my B called w/news about grandfather and procedures they will be doing on him. He has a long medical history that I won't go into, but things are always complicated there. Texted W (she is a very good RN) to see if she would explain better. She called. Nice conversation and she helped understand what drs are doing.

I apologized for how things turned out this morning. Said I was looking fwd to meet w/C so she can set me straight if I'm manipulating, set W straight if not.

She said she wasn't mad. Said that she had actually been missing our R before she came over.

I obviously don't understand anything.

[MrBond]

"I asked bluntly does she want me to have any say in parenting S16."

Why on earth would you EVER say something like that? You're his father. Of course you have a say. Stop asking for her permission.

"She said yes. I asked if we dont agree on a matter how should we proceed, she said she didnt know."

Don't ask her these things any more. When you start communicating better, you'll be able to agree.

"I said I have clear and strong beliefs on what's best for him, but fear they will be construed as manipulative, or judging. I gradually got them out, gently."

Now you're assuming that's what she thinks. This hasn't happened yet, so don't even talk to her about it.

"I said I feel powerless in the situation w/S that I have no say in his parenting."

Again ... don't ever say that. Take charge. He is YOUR son.

"I asked what do I have the power to change, and she insisted she didn't know what, but that I still had a say."

Don't ask. Read up on how to be a responsible father and just do it.

"My frustration is, how can we ever be ready if one of us is involved with another person?"

That is up to you to figure out.

"W expressed fear that I will never trust her again, and that she will never be able to forgive herself."

Tell her that you understand how she feels and that you understand if she doesn't know what she wants to do. But tell her also that deciding to trust her is YOUR choice and up to you.

"I reminded her that Christ died to redeem us from this sort of thing (and many more sorts of things) and that anything is possible, and there are countless stories about it happening, books written on how to make it happen."

Don't bring Christ or books into this discussion. It adds a ton of pressure. You can tell her that YOU have learned how to be forgiving through the things you've read/prayed about, but that's you and not her.

W said (when i asked her) she wanted to give our family unit a fair shot at surviving. Then said she's not sure if she wants to leave this OM.

"W admitted at one point that changing her living situation is actually something she considers from time to time. She said it would be hard (or wouldn't be easy). I said who says things should have to be easy."

Next time just listen and don't respond. When women talk like that it's basically them thinking out loud to themselves. They are not looking for you to offer a solution.

"I apologized for how things turned out this morning. Said I was looking fwd to meet w/C so she can set me straight if I'm manipulating, set W straight if not."

No no no. Your reasons for going to C are different than hers. Your stating the above just explained how YOU want to hear what YOU want to hear. She's not even ready at this point. AND stop focusing on the "manipulation" part of what your W has told you.

ALL WAS's say that the LBS "manipulated" them or "controlled them". It's their excuse for not having to admit that they did anything wrong. Blaming an outside source is their big thing. They don't realize that many problems that arise are from within them.

[Dm45]

"I asked bluntly does she want me to have any say in parenting S16."

Why on earth would you EVER say something like that? You're his father. Of course you have a say. Stop asking for her permission.

"She said yes. I asked if we dont agree on a matter how should we proceed, she said she didnt know."

Don't ask her these things any more. When you start communicating better, you'll be able to agree.

"I said I have clear and strong beliefs on what's best for him, but fear they will be construed as manipulative, or judging. I gradually got them out, gently."

Now you're assuming that's what she thinks. This hasn't happened yet, so don't even talk to her about it.

"I said I feel powerless in the situation w/S that I have no say in his parenting."

Again ... don't ever say that. Take charge. He is YOUR son.

"I asked what do I have the power to change, and she insisted she didn't know what, but that I still had a say."

Don't ask. Read up on how to be a responsible father and just do it.

I phrased it as a ? To avoid being accused of pressure or bullying. When I ask ?s though, then I am accused of manipulating. The gist of it is I have no say. He is with them. I don't approve. She knows that. Won't change.

stop focusing on the "manipulation" part of what your W has told you.

that will be hard, as I'm accused of it at every turn, every time we disagree. Its why she insists we cant talk now without C. Especially if shes seeming to see my point of view. Isn't that a definition of communication? To understand each others point of view...

[labug]

DM, I know this is difficult for you. People who want control often manipulate, we all manipulate at some time but people who are uncomfortable when they feel they aren't in control manipulate as a part of their daily existence. That's how they get back into control. You may not be manipulating as much as your W contends but apparently she's been there done that with you before and is afraid to go back to that.

Manipulative behaviors can be playing the victim, using blame and guilt, buttering people up, bullying. Do you see any of that in the conversation with your W?

I thought the conversation was going to be only about your S. How did it veer to your W and her coming home, etc? Do you think it might have been better to say, "I'm only prepared to talk about S today. I don't want to get sidetracked from this important issue."

[MrBond]

"I phrased it as a ? To avoid being accused of pressure or bullying. When I ask ?s though, then I am accused of manipulating. The gist of it is I have no say. He is with them. I don't approve. She knows that. Won't change."

Again, forget about what your W says right now. You just read up on being a good father if you don't have a role model and follow through.

"that will be hard, as I'm accused of it at every turn, every time we disagree."

Then tell her "no I am not manipulating or controlling you. I am stating my opinion. You have a right to your opinion as much as I do mine. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer and I respect your opinion. I ask that you respect mine."

" Its why she insists we cant talk now without C. Especially if shes seeming to see my point of view."

Forget about this for now and don't push C.

"Isn't that a definition of communication? To understand each others point of view..."

No. It is understanding that the other person HAS a point of view. You don't need to understand it. That's what validation is. Your W just wants to know that she is being heard.

Try this next time. When she brings something up, don't interrupt but just listen. When she's done, repeat what she says back to her "So you're saying that if we..." Then end it with "Is this correct?"

That starts the conversation and shows that you "heard" her. You can add in your own two cents, but that's all she wants to happen...is be heard.

[Dm45]

I thought the conversation was going to be only about your S. How did it veer to your W and her coming home, etc? Do you think it might have been better to say, "I'm only prepared to talk about S today. I don't want to get sidetracked from this important issue."

She veered it. She always does. One of the 1st things I was 2x4'd with here was don't take the conversation that way and I've been pretty good about that. My goal when she has visited has been to cook a nice meal, enjoy each others company, be a source of safety to her. Once she turns the conversation to R I start to mess up. It would have been good to say the words you suggested. Once I get off track it's hard to get back on.

MrBond I'm not pushing C, she's insisting on a 'referee'. I am interested in C's opinion on our interactions, though.

[labug]

So talk to her with a C, apparently that's what she needs.

If you start to mess up when she starts a R talk, tell her you're not ready for that, you need time.

Don't know how much you read other threads but his post might be helpful for you.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...857#Post2349857

[Dm45]

Thought id check in...
Thanks for that link. Read it. Several times. All I can say is I'm NOT there yet...

It's been a week since contact, other than I forward status of my grandpa to her. Is text. We're still on wait list for her C.

So I asked her to coffee tomorrow, we both have day off. It's been 30 minutes, whichever she's at least thinking about it. If she says no ill just say ok maybe another time.

In my thoughts about our convos, I have realized that though I don't switch to R talk, when she does I take the bait and try to use it.

I will take what I think your advice is and steer. Lear of that all together for a while?

[Dm45]

I will take what I think your advice is and steer. Lear of that all together for a while?

Wow...typed that on phone...meant to say "steer clear" if anyone didnt get that.

We are meeting for coffee in the morning. At Starbucks. We need to talk about S issues, but can't seem to do that right now, so MY goal will be to be a safe person for her to talk to.