DBing European Style, part 2

[Papa4Life]

Thanks, labug. I'm working on it, and I have made progress, thankfully. But your right, I've still got plenty of work to do still.

Journalling:
Today is S11's b-day party for the friends and some family members. I'm not looking forward to it, to be honest. I'm pretty sure that everyone who is coming knows about our sitch and since W has turned to her friends for emotional support, she probably loaded 'em up with horror stories about how horrible I am. Luckily a good friend of mine will be here too so that should help neutralize some of the bad juju, lol.

I've been going out a lot lately to this little hole-in-the-wall cafe with a pool table around the corner. I try to make myself scarce in the evenings because otherwise it gets awkward tiptoeing around each other. The owner of the place has taken a shine to me and last night we shot some pool and the breeze for a few hours. Plus he gave me free beer all night, which was nice. He's pretty sympathetic about his sitch, having gone through it once himself. Either that or he's trying to turn me into an alcoholic and make him rich! lol, jk.

Wrarely if ever initiates convos with the excepion of children and logistical-type stuff. I'm feeling kinda neglected. I'm almost looking forward to getting my own place -- or, I should say 'a second place' because W's idea is to find something small where we can switch off every three nights or so with the other person spending three days with the kids. We figure it would be best to try and let the kids stay in their own home and not uproot them every few days. Give them a bit of stability.

So, back to party prepping. Have a great Sunday, everyone.

[Papa4Life]

Y'know, I'm starting to realize that at least part of the reason my sitch has been so difficult (perhaps others feel this way as well) is the speed with which it has all been proceeding. While I see other people separating and living about for a year or more, in our case, we went from BD to mediator in four months. Is that typical?

Today was tough, I'll be honest. Thank goodness my good friend was here. We ducked out a couple of times for some fresh air and commisseration. It was awkward being around all these people who know of the sitch and to try to act naturally. Still, it was a nice day for my S. We ended the day playing a board game before the eldest two went up to bed. Just the three of us.

I'm feeling sad. Mother's Day used to be such a sweet day with the kids. I didn't really do much, because acting any other way just feels phony. Plus I really got burned by overdoing it on Valentines Day, so this time I kind of downplayed it. W went around the table giving everybody a kiss and to my surprise I even got one. I know she just did it for the kids' benefit because I've brought up in the past how she's done that before, go around kissing everybody good-bye and then just giving me a little wave. This was probably just for show.

I'm going to give my mom a call and wish her a happy mothers day.

[bustingout]

Hi P4L I hope the Birthday goes better than you anticipate... Enjoy the moment with S11. Don't worry about other people today...Enjoy the party with S11! :-)

[Papa4Life]

I could use some help from you kind folks.

W wants to go ahead with telling the kids as early as next week. Does anybody have some experiences to share on how to make this as painless as possible?

I'm hurting a bit today, not because of feelings for W -- I'd say I'm very well detached now and I feel confident about the future -- but more about the breakup of our family. I love these kids so much it hurts and I hate having to do this to them.

W talked briefly about D-related stuff and confirmed that she wants to tell the kids. I listened and validated and agreed to what she's asking for. The only thing I added was that it all seems to be happening so quickly. W said that it probably seems that way to me, but she's had her mind made up for some time. I guess MWD was right about WAW's.

She expressed surprise rhat I was being so calm and asked if it was for the kids. I told her yes I want to make this easy for the kids but Also for myself. I don't know, am I missing an opportunity to let her know that I don't feel the need to proceed so quickly with D? My heart tells me don't keep reminding here. There's really nothing left to say. Still, her noticing my detachment is something new. Not that it's significant, but still she's noticing.

Anyway, Happy Mothers Day to all you magnificent women out there. Make it a great one and let those kids of yours show you how much you mean to them!

[T1000]

I do think there is some significance to her noticing.
She most likely had expectations on how you were going to act and you didn't.

Maybe theres more to Papa4Life than she thought...

[mrtwopointfour]

I'm hurting a bit today, not because of feelings for W -- I'd say I'm very well detached now and I feel confident about the future -- but more about the breakup of our family. I love these kids so much it hurts and I hate having to do this to them.

I'm sorry to hear this, and I feel the same myself. The day we have to tell the kids is going to be the hardest part of this. I have decided though that there will be no blame, no 'your mother has decided ...', to the kids its got to appear like we are both happy in life and what is happening, hopefully this will make them accept it as normal life, rather than a major event for them.

Do you think its just talk from W? My W accused me of not sorting D papers a few weeks ago and not doing anything, to my knowledge she has still not done anything herself. I often wonder if its not something they want to do themselves and by us taking the first step makes it easier for them?

As for time. My W has said the same. I said that time is flying by, she claims every minute is slow and painful.

Keep calm and she will see you as the strong one. That's going to be a whole lot more attractive than somebody that throws blame and tears about in front of the kids.

[25yearsmlc]

I could use some help from you kind folks.

W wants to go ahead with telling the kids as early as next week. Does anybody have some experiences to share on how to make this as painless as possible?

you cannot make it "painless" but you can make it less painful...and for sure you can make it worse.

My MC and IC (And DB coach for that matter, for I consulted them all) told me not to say that we were divorcing until if and when it was "certain".

SEEMS as if yours is...correct? I'm asking...

Second, do not tell them too far in advance --b/c it's the sword of Damacles hanging over their head. Too painful and too fearful for too long..

If the divorce or their life changes are not going to happen for months, then wait...just say you're having problems right now so they know they're not insane to have noticed,

and then when it's only a few weeks away from changing their lives, THEN tell them the whole deal...
Sorry I don't recall your childrens ages...

but if they are very young, like under 7, tell them a week or so in advance. Otherwise it's a scary monster that is just looming, instead of a negative experience that was worked thru in a matter of days, as far as they are concerned...

okay so here's the deal I got from the people I consulted with, and they all seemed to agree on the main points, btw. (Rare).

Whatever happens with the divorce that directly affects them WILL be their biggest most immediate fear.

In fact, I out and out asked my kids what their biggest fears were, IF a divorce were to happen and I ONLY said that in response to their questions. I never brought up divorce first and I never said we were getting one, which is good b/c we didn't.

Both girls said "moving again" was their biggest fear, and "not seeing dad much" was their second fear. That was, I admit, a distant second, which is painful to admit.

D1 was in high school and had been promised a 3 year stay in high school, as our son got and which was not easy b/c H was military for many years.

Since I knew we could handle staying in the same house for 2 more years (worst case we'd downsize but stay in the neighborhood)

I was able to tell them what my IC/DB coach said to tell them, ie

what's NOT changing in their lives...

Since they'd be in the same school, they'd have the same friends, same neighborhood to play in, and same places to hang, playing on same team...the ONLY difference would be time with their father. (If that's not your situation then tell them you WILL DRIVE them to their friend's place and have their friends over and make it happen at least for some months until they make new friends. Maintain as many of their former friendships as you can assist them in making...so important...

As for seeing the "missing spouse", They would arrange with details that he'd make with them AND KEEP and that was the plan.

I also told my youngest that I would make the choices I truly felt were going to lead HER to the most happiness. I meant that.

This seemed to allay their fears a lot, and helped my youngest fall asleep better.

when they asked IF we were going to divorce, since I did not know for certain (I thought it was an 80-90% chance we'd split)

I'd say "I sure hope not, b/c we've loved each other a long time", or "hope not b/c he was the love of my life", etc...

"our marriage is being very challenged right now, but we are trying to figure this out..." and
T s
"If I knew we were going to divorce, I'd tell you..." I did NOay it with fear.

If the time comes to tell them, they say it's best to do it together, (not mandatory but preferred so no one gives THEIR version to divide the kids)

and to say it briefly BUT listen for their questions and reactions. Don't rush it but be brief and make time for THEM to process and ask.

Answer questions they have then, but expect them to have more questions later too. Tell them "it's okay if you think of something to ask, later on - b/c we'll both be available to answer anything you ask or help you work out any fears you have, etc."

If one parent does not want the divorce, they do not have to make the WAS the bad guy BUT nor must they pretend it's "mutual."

You can say "it's not what I wanted. But I'm not blameless in this situation, and I accept that your mother/father believes this is what is best and we don't seem able to work things out.

I DO know we both love you so very much and that's what makes this hardest...luckily, there are some things in your lives that will NOT change, such as....x y and z..(then remind them of some things they enjoy that will remain stable in their lives).

Don't drag it out. They will need details about THEIR LIVES then and when they ask later on,
otherwise, give them time to process it so they can assess their own fears. Call or chat with them often...and keep that up.

If they ask if there is ANY chance you'll reconcile, agree you'll never say "NO WAY", at this stage.... THis is going to be a shock to them, right?

So for now, say "not likely" or 'doesn't seem that way right now"...which are true statements but for NOW, they can have hope that gets them thru the transition from being the family they thought they were, to a new form they are not familiar with...

And don't let them believe or say "there is no family now".

There IS still a family left, just as families that survive the death of a parent, or child, families DO survive divorce. A lot.

They modify terms and things are a bit wacky for awhile, but they are still in a family...

Make sense?

I'm hurting a bit today, not because of feelings for W -- I'd say I'm very well detached now and I feel confident about the future -- but more about the breakup of our family. I love these kids so much it hurts and I hate having to do this to them.

I understand. IT's an adaptation process.

W talked briefly about D-related stuff and confirmed that she wants to tell the kids. I listened and validated and agreed to what she's asking for. The only thing I added was that it all seems to be happening so quickly. W said that it probably seems that way to me, but she's had her mind made up for some time. I guess MWD was right about WAW's.

It is irrelevant how long SHE has made up her mind. You were discussing telling the children, and if YOU think it's happening fast, THEY will too.

What do YOU mean when you say you "validated" her comments. That you "get it" or that you "agree with it" or "surrender to it" or what?

I'm curious.

She expressed surprise rhat I was being so calm and asked if it was for the kids. I told her yes I want to make this easy for the kids but Also for myself. I don't know, am I missing an opportunity to let her know that I don't feel the need to proceed so quickly with D? My heart tells me don't keep reminding here. There's really nothing left to say. Still, her noticing my detachment is something new. Not that it's significant, but still she's noticing.

Anyway, Happy Mothers Day to all you magnificent women out there. Make it a great one and let those kids of yours show you how much you mean to them!

On that note, I hope YOU will plan a fun day for Father's Day for them. At times like these, everyone can use the "hugs" good times can give. I also suggest you rent or go see a comedy, or live comedian if your child is old enough.

Laughing together will be a fast reminder that life does NOT sukk for all and that there will be more good times ahead...around the corner.

for you too....

GOOD LUCK and remember, truly, your life WILL get better...I'm positive.

[Fartiltre]

25
All though this was not for me I have to let you know that I value your words very highly. I asked a similar question some days ago but didn’t receive an answer. Reading your answer to P4L gave me a lot of clearance regarding this dreadful moment.

P4L
When times come I hope the best! I would share (not the writings) some of 25s thoughts with W before talking to children. You and W need to adult-up to this and do it together.

[mrtwopointfour]

25yrs - What a great post, and P4L has a huge amount to work with here and absorb - as have I.

I have no experience yet of how to handle this, but agree that leaving telling the kids until as late as possible is the best idea. People keep telling me the kids will be fine, they will adapt etc. I agree with that a certain amount, but don't agree in dragging them along for the ride. Kids should have a worry free life in my opinion (plenty to worry about later in life!), so they don't need to know anything, until something definite happens

[Papa4Life]

Wow thanks for all the great feedback, everybody.

T100:
I do think there is some significance to her noticing.
She most likely had expectations on how you were going to act and you didn't.

Deatchment is a wonderful thing

Hi Mr2.4,
Keep calm and she will see you as the strong one. That's going to be a whole lot more attractive than somebody that throws blame and tears about in front of the kids.
That's the plan -- and it's my attitude in this situation at the moment.

Fartlitre:
You and W need to adult-up to this and do it together.
That's part of the plan, too. W also wants to bring the oldest 2 to the mediator, but I feel that this is something we can't shop out to someone else. I don't know what qualifications the mediator has other than experience as a mediator, but she says she "can listen". Well, we can do that too, and we're their parents. W thinks it's a good idea, but I'd much rather deal with this ourselves.

Hi 25, glad to hear from you:

W wants to go ahead with telling the kids as early as next week. Does anybody have some experiences to share on how to make this as painless as possible?

you cannot make it "painless" but you can make it less painful...and for sure you can make it worse.

My MC and IC (And DB coach for that matter, for I consulted them all) told me not to say that we were divorcing until if and when it was "certain".

SEEMS as if yours is...correct? I'm asking...

Yes, everything W has said and done has made it perfectly clear that that is what she wants and what she plans to do. I have accepted it, detached, and am focussing on myself and on GAL.

Second, do not tell them too far in advance --b/c it's the sword of Damacles hanging over their head. Too painful and too fearful for too long..

If the divorce or their life changes are not going to happen for months, then wait...just say you're having problems right now so they know they're not insane to have noticed, and then when it's only a few weeks away from changing their lives, THEN tell them the whole deal...

This is what I said to my W, and she asked, "Do you want to wait for them, or for yourself? In fact, I was so taken aback by this statement, such seeming coldness to her children, that it was the wake up call that really sped up my detachment efforts.

okay so here's the deal I got from the people I consulted with, and they all seemed to agree on the main points, btw. (Rare).

Whatever happens with the divorce that directly affects them WILL be their biggest most immediate fear.
[...]
I was able to tell them [/b]what my IC/DB coach said to tell them, ie

what's NOT changing in their lives...

[color:#FF0000]We are hoping to keep the family home so the kids can stay in their own home. W wants to rent an apartment/house and switch off at the second house every three days or so between she and I so we can take turns being in the house with the kids.

when they asked IF we were going to divorce, since I did not know for certain (I thought it was an 80-90% chance we'd split)

I'd say "I sure hope not, b/c we've loved each other a long time", or "hope not b/c he was the love of my life", etc...

"our marriage is being very challenged right now, but we are trying to figure this out..." and
T s
"If I knew we were going to divorce, I'd tell you..." I did NOT say it with fear.

These are all great points and it echoes the thoughts that I've had about what I want to say to the kids.

If the time comes to tell them, they say it's best to do it together, (not mandatory but preferred so no one gives THEIR version to divide the kids)

and to say it briefly BUT listen for their questions and reactions. Don't rush it but be brief and make time for THEM to process and ask.

I have experienced this from the other side of the table (and more than once) so I have a little insight into what they're going to be feeling and the questions they'll have. I'm going to try to be the best listener and validator I can be.

If one parent does not want the divorce, they do not have to make the WAS the bad guy BUT nor must they pretend it's "mutual."

You can say "it's not what I wanted. But I'm not blameless in this situation, and I accept that your mother/father believes this is what is best and we don't seem able to work things out.

I DO know we both love you so very much and that's what makes this hardest...luckily, there are some things in your lives that will NOT change, such as....x y and z..(then remind them of some things they enjoy that will remain stable in their lives).

I don't think I'm going to approach it in this way. Even if I did still have hope (which I don't, but it's okay, I'm still positive about things), I think it puts me in a weak position in W's eyes and just makes it more confusing for the kids.

If they ask if there is ANY chance you'll reconcile, agree you'll never say "NO WAY", at this stage.... THis is going to be a shock to them, right?

So for now, say "not likely" or 'doesn't seem that way right now"...which are true statements but for NOW, they can have hope that gets them thru the transition from being the family they thought they were, to a new form they are not familiar with...[/color[

[color:#FF0000]I agree that, while I don't want to give them false hope, I also do not want to crush their hopes either.


And don't let them believe or say "there is no family now". There IS still a family left, just as families that survive the death of a parent, or child, families DO survive divorce. A lot.

They modify terms and things are a bit wacky for awhile, but they are still in a family...

And I'll always be their dad and I'll always be there for them.

The only thing I added was that it all seems to be happening so quickly. W said that it probably seems that way to me, but she's had her mind made up for some time.

It is irrelevant how long SHE has made up her mind. You were discussing telling the children, and if YOU think it's happening fast, THEY will too.

Again, I don't know that I am willing to bring this up to her again, because I don't want her to think that I'm dragging my feet. I KNOW that it would be better to wait, but I think that if this is what she needs to do, for whatever reason, I'm going to accept it.

What do YOU mean when you say you "validated" her comments. That you "get it" or that you "agree with it" or "surrender to it" or what? I'm curious.

Well, I really don't agree with it, and I'm not surrendering to anything -- I just want to move on. If anything, you could say I accept that this is what she wants or needs to do and I'm willing to work on the consequences.

I could say, look, I don't want to tell the kids, but I want her to really understand what I mean and realize that I am moving on with my life. I feel confident and positive and I don't want to go against these positive feelings -- and be dishonest with myself -- by giving her the opportunity to say that I'm only asking this for me.


On that note, I hope YOU will plan a fun day for Father's Day for them. At times like these, everyone can use the "hugs" good times can give. I also suggest you rent or go see a comedy, or live comedian if your child is old enough.

Laughing together will be a fast reminder that life does NOT sukk for all and that there will be more good times ahead...around the corner.

for you too....

GOOD LUCK and remember, truly, your life WILL get better...I'm positive.

Thanks so much for this encouragement 25, and thanks to the rest of the nice folks who posted some encouragement. I'm doing great right now. Even though I am not looking forward to talking to the kids about the big D, I am looking forward to my trip to the States at the end of the month, and I've got lots of activities planned with kids and with friends, and I like this guy P4L. I'm starting to remember how much I like him and how great a guy he was. And how humble! (lol). It's time to rise above and move beyond.