Hit hard still taking another step forward.

[T1000]

I was going to respond to AS last post on here but decided to just do an update instead.

Things aren't as rosy as I was led to believe. It's not all bad but it's not full advance to R.

I was hesitant about posting about recent things as I'm quite embarrassed. You guys have been my biggest supporters. If I can't talk to you guys where does that leave me.

This last week has been a confusing week. For me and for W.
I started off feeling really good about recent events. The longer the week went on the more that feeling faded. If I contacted W it felt like I was pushing too hard, if I didn't contact it felt like I didn't care.


We have emailed early on in the week about taking kids on vacation next week because I'm off work. I thought it was too much too soon and she agreed. Now I'm going there for 3 days and then coming back. It should give us some decent time to connect.

Lots of things going on in my head. What if W keeps flowers from OM? What does that mean?
If they go to the same gym how can she have no contact?

I was looking forward to seeing her on the Friday when I picked the kids up. Got there on and the flowers were in the window. Hmm.
W wasn't anyway in particular not warm not cold. No physical contact.

Over weekend we chatted on and off.
If I was asked on tuesday if I was staying over Sunday night I would have said yes. When Sunday came around I didn't have a clue, I have a bag packed in my car all the time anyway.
She messaged me Sunday afternoon.
W: Are you going to stay for a bit when you drop the kids off.
Me: Yes if I'm welcome.
W: Of course!!
Me: Of course I will then.
W: :-)

We chatted a little bit when I got there, ordered food and I picked it up.
I had been advised on the piecing forum to not mention flowers or anything like that.
I couldn't grasp any PMA at all.
The whole thing just felt so messed up and confusing I decided to bring it all up and talk. I had been wanting to all night.

Me: How do you feel about what happened on Monday?
W: I have felt weird all week. Had a knot in my stomach. Very confused about where we stand.
Me: Me too. It feels all over the place.
W: It does.
Me: Have you had any contact with OM this week?
W: Yes, I have spoke to him.
Me: On Monday you asked me where I stood. I told you I could get past OM. I told you I had 3 conditions and I had the feeling all week that you were not honouring them.

She looked confused

Me: Can you remember them at all?
W: No sorry I can't, we had a bit to drink.
Me: I had a little but I remember it as clear as day.
W: Sorry I don't.
Me: I said The first one was I would need to you to have no contact with OM.
W: I haven't contacted him at all, he asked to speak to me while I was in the gym.
Me: What did you tell him?
W: I told him I wasn't in a place where I could see anyone.
W: Tbh I don't think that would be something I would agree to. We go to the same gym, I have nothing to do with him but he is part of a circle of friends that I know at the gym. He has some classes with my sister.
Me: I had wondered how you would manage it being part of the same gym.
Me: The second one was I asked that anything you bought to wear when you were with him or anything he bought you I would need it to be gone. When I turned up on Friday the flowers he bought you had moved from the dining room to your front room window. When I saw them it really confused me.
W: OK, I can't remember you saying that either. I wondered why you had been so quiet tonight like something was really bothering you. I wish you would open up a bit sooner and talk to me. You need to talk when things are on your mind, not bottle it all up. I drunk a fair bit on Monday, I remember us having an amazing day and some highlights. I have found this week hard because after such an amazing day down I came crashing back down to earth because you still live 1.5 hours away and we are here without you.

I want you to move here so you can we can give this a good shot. I cant see it working with you living there.

I then had to bring up the 3rd one which was her getting an STI check. Same answer, she is clean. She was disappointed in me asking. I told her considering what happened to the first 2 stipulations I was well within my rights to ask again.

We chatted more about things.
Said her M mentioned that I should have told her about the counseling. It might have been different If she knew I was getting professional help. (don't quite believe this one)
She had asked her M if she thinks people can change, her M said she didn't used to believe they could until her H (W's SF) had heart attack and it's plain to see that he as changed dramatically for the better.
She is worried we will go down the same route we did in September, I said I understand. In September I was a different person but my changes hadn't stuck, my plan is to make them stick this time.
She said she would love me to stay over but she doesn't want us getting into habits just because we can. She wants it to happen naturally. Doesn't want to force anything. She asked what is the rush? If we take our time and something great happens between us then great.

Chatted more about next week.

I left at about 21:00. I was I was leaving she walked up to me. She made a light hearted joke about me taking a long time to open up.
I said jokingly "How do you want to do this" she said "I would like a hug and I will let you peck me on the cheek" I said you can have a hug and I will raise you a 1.5 second kiss on the lips" She said I'm going to count. We hugged for ages, she was well into it. I broke it off, kissed for quite a while then I left.

5 mins later:
W: I like it when we talk.
Me: Me too, I feel like we could talk for hours.
W: You just take a while to warm up.
Me: Something to work on.
W: :-) thumbs up

45 mins later, sends me a pic of her legs in the bath, then another one and another one. I actually pulled the car over to initiate a little. Sent me even more mind blowing pics. They weren't dirty, but very 'Maxim'.

This morning, I asked her something and we got chatting, told me about a squat challenge she is doing, I made a few light hearted jokes about her ass and I got another nice pic.

Chatted a bit later about random stuff.



So do I stand my ground about OM stuff or not there yet?
If I don't then it's fine? If I do I could push her away because she's not quite there yet?

I want something more concrete before I go moving house.

Even though she is adamant I need to live there I'm hoping over the next few weeks/months I will have more of an idea on where things are.

Hope this post makes sense. Theres only so many times I can read it through before non of it makes sense anymore.

[stilllookingup]

I know you are having a hard time but I like how your w is opening so honestly about her feelings though. I know truth hurts more than lies sometimes but you have to appreciate that she's completely open with you. She didn’t lie about flowers or seeing OM at the gym.

In my own sitch my H just came over yesterday to tell me about OW, which I wrote about on my own thread. I kinda knew about it but I was surprised he came over to tell me. When he was telling me I thought about your sitch. “Man this is how he must have felt when his W first told him about seeing someone” A part of me definitely took it as a betrayal and a part of me took it rather okay.

I left at about 21:00. I was I was leaving she walked up to me. She made a light hearted joke about me taking a long time to open up.
I said jokingly "How do you want to do this" she said "I would like a hug and I will let you peck me on the cheek" I said you can have a hug and I will raise you a 1.5 second kiss on the lips" She said I'm going to count. We hugged for ages, she was well into it. I broke it off, kissed for quite a while then I left.

5 mins later:
W: I like it when we talk.
Me: Me too, I feel like we could talk for hours.
W: You just take a while to warm up.
Me: Something to work on.
W: :-) thumbs up

45 mins later, sends me a pic of her legs in the bath, then another one and another one. I actually pulled the car over to initiate a little. Sent me even more mind blowing pics. They weren't dirty, but very 'Maxim'.

This morning, I asked her something and we got chatting, told me about a squat challenge she is doing, I made a few light hearted jokes about her ass and I got another nice pic.

^^ It made me totally smile. It's so cute about hug and kiss trade.
I gotta be honest though. When I was reading the beginning part of your post it made me nervous that you were pushing too hard. It almost seemed like you were blaming her for not listening to you the other day about the conditions.
Good that you opened up about what was bothering you and she took it well in the end.

[T1000]

I'm sorry your going through it to SLU. I like that part of you took it OK. Head off in that direction and see what you find.

I am very glad that she is honest with me.

I was maybe pushing too hard. I felt it was getting ugly at one point so I backed off.
It's hard to make a point about something like that, I felt my feelings were being completely ignored so I was angry. I didn't think for a second that she wouldn't remember some of it.
Tbh I think it's a mixture of the drinking/memory and she is also backing off a little like AnotherStander said she might.

We weren't on the same page. Hopefully we are somewhere nearer now.

[lovethehub]

T,
I am by no means an expert on DB or relationships so take this for what it is worth - and I am basing it on my feelings and actions during/after my A.

She has mentioned several times that you don't open up and it is hard to get you to talk - she is afraid to trust that things are going to be different. I was afraid to trust my H to stick around (long before my A)& because of these fears, I did not want to let OM go even after the A ended (he was a backup plan in my mind}. Even though there was no physical contact, my mind made up stories of how things would be if H left. It kept my emotional connection to him alive for a long time. She needs to know she can trust you but without pushing or pressure..like walking a tightrope, very difficult.

Refusing to quit the gym raises a flag in my mind. Is she in a small town and that is the only gym? If so, different story. If not, there is a reason she will not switch gyms because no matter how much she loves it, she should be willing to go to a different one to make you feel safe and to save the marriage. I may be wrong but I say this because H wanted me to quit my job when he found out abt A (OM would be there regularly). I did not feel I could because I didn't trust him to stay and I could support my children on it, however, even if I could have, I know that I would not have been ready to give that up because I didn't trust my H (Ironic, I know, since I was the one who had the A). I wanted our M to work but I didn't believe it would so I wasn't willing to let go 100%.

Just be careful. She may need some time to see/feel you opening up to her but if it becomes a sticking point and she refuses to quit, there may be a reason.

I am not trying to be a downer because it really sounds like things are going great and she wants to work things out, I just heard myself in her half of that conversation.

[T1000]

The logical part of me understands her not wanting to completely severe the connection with OM. After all if I don't work out why wouldn't she look into a possible future with him.
Something I don't understand. If she has dumped him and he is telling her he loves her, sending her flowers and trying to converse with her. What does staying at the gym achieve? I can't see that by itself keeping him in a holding pattern.
(How the hell do I compete with Mr Bouquet with no pursuing?)

She likes the gym, it's near and it's cheap.

Am I wanting to lay down this rule because I can or because I need to? I'm not sure.
It's annoying but I don't feel threatened by it. I would rather he fell off the edge of a cliff somewhere but that's not going to happen.

I think if she was 100% lets rebuild the relationship and be married again then I think it is something I should pursue for some piece of mind. Am I being controlling? I feel like it's something I can put my foot down on and she would have to respect my need for it. Am I wrong in wanting to put her out because I feel put out?

Until we are at that stage I'm setting boundaries that I can't sufficiently support.
I say you can't go to the gym or I will what....?? Not be part of a relationship that isn't really there yet.

I only brought them up last week because I understood the situation differently.

When she said she wants our R to happen naturally, not be forced, not get into habits of staying over every Sunday night just because we can. 10 months ago I would have tried to reason with her, explain why it's makes sense to do it a certain way. I have come to the conclusion that no amazing explanation of why it would work is going to do any convincing. She has to feel it.
When she left in June, nothing would have convinced her that we could work again. After months of this and that by October she was trying to convince me to move to where she lived so we could carry on with our marriage.

It's easy to over look the changes already. In the last 2-3 weeks my sitch has changed loads.
In another 2-3 weeks it could be anywhere. Up or down. Aiming for up.

Next week should be interesting.

[lovethehub]

Sounds like you have a great perspective and when she knows you are changing for good, she will trust you and OM will not be an issue even if he is around the gym. I know mine isn't now and we run into each other every so often, I just wanted to share where I was mentally/emotionally when we were first trying to reconcile but your post makes sense - and yes, I have been following your thread for weeks and things have changed a lot. You are giving a lot of us hope

[T1000]

I appreciate the input LTH. It's good to hear it from a similar side to my W's.

"when she knows you are changing for good, she will trust you"
"I was afraid to trust my H to stick around (long before my A)& because of these fears, I did not want to let OM go"


What are your thoughts on her wanting me to move to her town?
I suggested it to her in March that I would sell the house and move to her town and rent a place in the hope that we would reconcile. At the time she said I should to it for our kids. I shouldn't do it for her. I told her it would be for the kids but it would also be for her. She said nothing could happen between us while I lived where I am now.
I think at that time she must have just met OM.

I spoke to two of my close friends. My brother who said do what you need to do and my friend of 30+ years who was obviously a bit confused by my decision but said do it if you feel you have to.

As time went by and I found out she was dating my mind changed. My counselor thought it was a bad idea. I would be commuting 2.5-3 hours a day. It would be very hard to have a life.
I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't move. I would remortgage to make payments easier and get on with my life. I never expressed this to my W because at the time I felt it was non of her business.

Now W wants me to move so we can have a chance at making it work. She feels it won't really happen until I do.
I did tell her last Monday that I wasn't sure it was the right thing to do. She thought I would do it for the kids anyway. She was disappointed with what I said. The conversation got cut short for reason or another and god knows what she remembers anyway.

My question is do you think she needs to experience the act of me moving there for her to trust I'm for real?
In March she said nothing could happen until I did live there. That has changed already and I'm fairly sure after some time if it keeps heading in the right direction it can change even more.

If we were dedicated to the R and the M I would move there and do all the driving to have our family back together.

Doing it on the chance that it might work or the chance that she could easily WAS it anytime she wants.
I suppose that could happen at any time to anyone anyway.

As I'm typing this the situation feels similar to what happened in November when she gave me the ultimatum that I either move there and we carry on with the M or it's over. I baulked at the ultimatum, had concern on moving there and I didn't trust her to change.
I have learned that seeing it as an ultimatum and acting accordingly didn't do me any favours. I wanted to be right. Whats the saying "Be happy or be right"
Having concerns on moving were something that I immediately got past when the whole thing fell through.
Not trusting her to change was a rookie move. It's up to the LBS to take the first step, and the next step, and the next thousand steps...

I'm hoping spending Sunday-Wednesday together next week will give me more of a feel.

[lovethehub]

You probably need the pros advice on this one, or your coach if you still have one. MWD says to take it slow and your wife has said the same thing yet wants you to move. She is looking for reassurance that you are committed and that has to be through actions, words alone will not reassure her. Does that mean moving there right away? Vets?

[T1000]

I want to see my kids every day.

I would say I could see them every day. Even if for a very limited amount of time on certain days.

I worry that even now I don't have much time for myself.
Maybe I just have to suck it up and make the best of what I would have if I did move. My kids and a possible future with W.

Decisions, decisions.

[T1000]

Not a good day.

Text:
10:09, 15 May - W: Just double checking you are able to still have the kids for a week at the end of June?
10:28, 15 May - T1000: Sorry no I can't, not unless someone cancels a holiday.
10:31, 15 May - W: Seriously??? I booked that time slot with you months in advance
10:38, 15 May - T1000: You asked me. I never said I could do it.
10:38, 15 May - W: Erm....yes you did!!
10:53, 15 May - T1000: I said possibly the end of June.
10:56, 15 May - W: Right well I can't have you stay over next week. Just checked my diary and I've got too much on. Feel free to pop down on Tuesday to see the kids on your birthday!
10:57, 15 May - W: Thanks for doing that to me....reminds me why how sneaky you are!

I rang her and left this message or something very similar.

Went to voicemail
"Hi,

I didn't want to send this via text.

When you asked me for the week off I was conflicted. I was confused over the whole valentines thing.
You told me you were moving on with your life and I should do the same.
As time went on and the more I found out about things that were happening in April the more angry and resentful I became.
I thought why should I move my life around to suit you?
You never followed up and confirmed any plans. I didn't even know if you were still going.

(she has a habit of planning things and never following through and/or expecting everything to fall into place for her.)

I am sorry if I have spoiled your plans.

April was a very hard month for me and how I felt at the time was how I felt.

I understand if you want to cancel next week. I hope you don't, I was looking forward to connecting with you more and spending time with the kids as a family."
End of voicemail.

Text:
12:56, 15 May - T1000: I have left you a voice mail.
13:01, 15 May - W: Just goes to prove that you went out of your way to be spiteful. I needed the break and it was the only time I could go away with my friends. It's fine. You give me a date that works around you and I'll find someone else to go on holiday with me. As far as next week is concerned I'm just too angry to let you stay here so you will just have to make your own plans. I'm done. You will NEVER change!!
13:06, 15 May - T1000: Cant you understand where I was 4 weeks ago!?!?
I have changed and I will continue to grow, it takes time.
13:08, 15 May - W: No. Things will never change.
End of text.

The annoying thing is that I'm dying to point out to her is that she is angry right now so she has cancelled next week. I was angry in April so I didn't want to do anything for her. She is doing the same thing that she is angry at me for!!

I haven't sent anything back. I could try to get the week off. I feel like I should to show that I would do it now. Pat of me wants to just to get it over with. The insecure side of me never liked the idea of her going on a girly holiday.

Her response and being totally unwilling to understand how I felt is very alarming. I know she is angry right now and she will calm somewhat.

Do I go dim and let it settle and see what happens?
Do I try to get the week off work maybe and expect nothing in return?