What I mean by that is similar to the cycle T2 spoke of. He gets depressed or grumpy or whatever and starts manufacturing reasons that it is my fault somehow and grew a BIG FAT resentment that led to him cheating AT me.
Now he feels guilty, and that is uncomfortable so I worry that he will find yet more ways to make that "my fault", leading to more resentments...and back around the circle again.
That is my fear, but I think T2 did a better job of wording it.
I know, KAW had some really great observations and Shiny too.
I think this guilt thing is going to continue to be a big problem for him. I have seen the way he beats himself up over things he feels guilty about way back in his past. He tries to shove it all into a dark closet, but when it comes up, he's brutal to himself.
It is never so much of a real empathy for how he affected other people by his behavior, but more of a "I did a bad thing which means I am a bad person". It's about collecting evidence to justify low self-esteem.
Quote: It is never so much of a real empathy for how he affected other people by his behavior, but more of a "I did a bad thing which means I am a bad person". It's about collecting evidence to justify low self-esteem.
Yes, absolutely...excellent observation Tal. I think you're right on the money with that. T2
Quote: It is never so much of a real empathy for how he affected other people by his behavior, but more of a "I did a bad thing which means I am a bad person". It's about collecting evidence to justify low self-esteem.
What T2 said:excellent observation Tal. I think you're right on the money with that.
I never thought of it this way...I think my H may fit into this category as well. BUT, if people would think about it before hand wouldn't the "bad person syndrome" slowly fade away? It's like a pessimistic person trying to be the optimistic person..they don't quite get it and it's a struggle to GET it...but it can be done.
I'm thinking that it has something to do with what he said he learned in therapy. He said that he had major malfunctions of things he should have learned during the stage of early and late teenage years. Doesn't that have to do with empathy and forming of romantic relationships?
If you are convinced that you are "bad" and wrack yourself with guilt over the "bad" things you've done in the past that prove that....then you are at very high risk to continue to go off into episodes of doing "bad" things to punish yourself and keep that shame from fading away.
I don't know how many times I've told him that all the crap he talks about himself is so wrong. I tell him that if anyone else critisized him the way he does to himself--I'd be getting in someone's face to defend him.
I don't mean to sound like he's some kind of Narcisist--not at all. There is an element of self-centeredness to really low self-esteem though. Have you ever heard someone with really low self-esteem talk about always feeling like people are looking at them and judging them? As if everyone is focused on THEM all the time and they are the center of attention. The real truth is people probably spend less than 1/100000 of their time even thinking about that person, but you can't convince someone with low-self esteem that.
That kind of thing keeps people stuck inside themselves and have difficulty connecting or having real empathy for other people. THAT is what I think is the deal with Wolfie. He acts alot like an alcoholic sometimes--without the alcohol. That's probably why you and T2 see some similarities, lol!
Quote: While CAW may directly benefit from my compassion, she also may choose to reject it ... either way it really doesn't matter to me ... I'm doing it soothe my inner-self so that one day I can have some inner-peace.
I didn't quite phrase the last part correctly. For most days now, I do have more inner-peace. Of course, I have nearly two years of practice (including last night), to get to where I am today.
Quote: Now he feels guilty, and that is uncomfortable so I worry that he will find yet more ways to make that "my fault", leading to more resentments...and back around the circle again. ... I think this guilt thing is going to continue to be a big problem for him. I have seen the way he beats himself up over things he feels guilty about way back in his past. He tries to shove it all into a dark closet, but when it comes up, he's brutal to himself.
Tal, frankly it could take years for him to come to terms with his guilt ... and as long as it takes ... each time he wrestle with himself, you need to continue to do what works that keeps you steadfast from being a part of his problem, whether that be giving space, acting with compassion or just doing nothing ... or whatever else works for you to ride out one of his episodes, so that when the episode subsides he will be drawn back to you. Once you find out what works, trust me! ... you'll get plenty of practice. ... and less and less will he look for reasons for it to be "your" fault.
Well a bit of time lapsed before I sent that post, so is wasn't quite on the current topic.
Tal, I just want to say your posts are just as insightful and are helping me understand some of CAW's behaviors as well, plus CAW doesn't share with me her inner thoughts ... At times she will write them down and leave them laying around for me to "find" and read. She, too, suffers from very low-esteem, but I alway wonder why she's never willing to talk openly to me. For the first time here, I'm starting to see it as she could be just to ashamed of herself to want to talk to me. Will have to think on this some more...
Quote: I don't mean to sound like he's some kind of Narcisist--not at all. There is an element of self-centeredness to really low self-esteem though. Have you ever heard someone with really low self-esteem talk about always feeling like people are looking at them and judging them? As if everyone is focused on THEM all the time and they are the center of attention. The real truth is people probably spend less than 1/100000 of their time even thinking about that person, but you can't convince someone with low-self esteem that.
This is profound in that I, ME used to be just like this-- Have you ever heard someone with really low self-esteem talk about always feeling like people are looking at them and judging them? As if everyone is focused on THEM all the time and they are the center of attention.
Lightbulb! The funny thing is that once the "bomb" dropped I DIDN'T CARE what anybody thought of me! I now am out of THAT mode, with a lot of self-talk I could probably do anything!! I'm not afraid anymore..
I happened upon some very timely and informative stuff in another site...not saying where...just excerpts and no indication of authors.
Read "WS" as Wayward Spouse and "BS" as Betrayed Spouse
The Question was "What do WS's Fear?"
Fear of losing the BS, of course...fear of facing the fact that they could be capable of such hurtful behavior...fear of not being able to change, fear of being judged forever by anyone who happens to find out--family, friends, etc. Fear of having permanent regrets that interfere w/moving on with life.
Fear of facing the real "me". The real reasons that will answer the "why" questions. Fear of failure, fear of not being able to make things right.
On a personal level, I know my BS has forgiven me, but I don't think I'll (ever) be able to forgive myself for betraying myself. That is my biggest fear, now, almost a year later. I've hurt someone I love dearly, but I'm making things better and I know that it will never happen again. But I have **fundamentally** betrayed myself too... I can't stand being in my own skin, some days.
Right now my biggest fear is down the road, my spouse will wish he had just left me.
My biggest fear is that I caused too much pain and I won't be able to make him happy for the rest of his life.
I fear not being believed when I am telling the truth.
I fear showing anger at my BS because I don't feel "entitled" to the anger, b/c I'm the one that messed up. I am so angry with myself and the anger runs so deep I am afraid of showing it. I have a deep fear of facing myself and accept that I could have done this terrible thing.
Fear of the pain of breaking up with spouse/grieving their loss;
Fear of facing the world alone and starting anew;
Fear all relationships end up 'this way' so there is not point in leaving;
Fear of what everyone will think;
Fear of hurting the spouse, seeing the spouse grieve, causing psychological damage to spouse;
Fear of who you are as a person without the 'security' of the marriage;
Fear you will never meet anyone again that you connect with;
Fear that you are making a mistake/should try harder and that you will realise when it is too late because your spouse won't take you back;
Fear that you are just going temporarily crazy/are still in the fog;
Fear of losing the comfort and familiarity of a marriage;
If there are children, fear of losing them;
Fear of losing finances/married lifestyle/friends etc.
My biggest fear is that my wife won't be able to heal from the pain I have caused her.
I'm afraid that my triggers will never go away. I'm afraid to tell my spouse about the triggers because I am afraid she will take them on and they will become her triggers. I am afraid to tell my spouse that most of the triggers make me feel tremendous guilt, but some of them are actually good memories.
My biggest fear is that my husband will have a revenge affair, and I am afraid that I don't have the right to ask him not to. My horrid mistake would not make his being unfaithful any less devastating.
I don't know about you guys, but I really needed to read this stuff at this stage of the game. I'm gonna go home and give Wolfie a big hug.
... and less and less will he look for reasons for it to be "your" fault.