While I'm definitely stunned, I am not mad at you for expressing things you feel are important to me. I appreciate the fact that you took some time thinking about this and responding. Thanks.
I'm going to be thinking about a lot of this, so I won't address some of it here, okay?
First of all, I haven't made that casserole... so it's not a done deal.
I will say that the move had me upset to begin with but once I got the feedback here on why it might have happened, I was able to mull it over. So the truth is, by the time we had the conversation, I didn't feel mad at him for making a decision he felt was best for him.
I still felt confused, though. He had not offered me much information when he told me. And in my cell call back to him yesterday, I didn't ask him to censor what he tells me... I asked him if he would separate it out so that I didn't get lost in one message when being expected to know and remember the rest.
And he admitted clearly that he had set me up for it. He said, "Yes, I knew that I did that to you, and I'm sorry."
I accepted the apology.
I'm not the only person who gets stuck on something without being able to move on. We all do it. So while I reiterate that I was not asking him not to tell me things, I was asking him to break things up into chunks and spaces where he knew I understood.
Think about it from another angle: Let's say that Dr. K called you, happy and in a chipper mood, and you asked him if he wanted to come over Saturday and eat dinner. His happy mood turned to fear of something. He starts to mutter and something seems wrong. After all, you just asked him a question.
He tells you quickly that he's sold the condo, needs Gabe's jeep to move stuff and then reminds you that you have a nail appointment on Monday. Tell me honestly, what part of that entire sentence are you going to get stuck on?
I also ended the cell conversation because he was clearly becoming rattled and I was driving (and had headed to church instead of work by this time), and I didn't think it would serve much purpose to keep having him defend his position on the move... but I will think about how it seems from your perspective.
Hmmm. Would I have rather had him tell me in a self assured voice with conviction? Yes. Our M has been riddled with him telling me things off the cuff and just in time to set me up for crazymaking. I realize now, with your valuable help, that it undoubtedly stemmed in my reaction or perceived reaction to his news.
To be fair to myself, 99% of the time, I went into a planning and organizing mode when he told me big things that affected me: like how he bought a boat without my approval and then showed up at the house with it one day. His mother was the one who went off the literal deep end.
So while part of me understands where his fear lies, the other part of me knows that he's finishing things with his mother through me.
So yes, I really WOULD like for him to stand up and tell me something important with conviction. Actually, it would help me out a great deal if I knew he felt SOMETHING about ANYTHING.
I'm also mulling over your words about being vulnerable and showing my soft side. I know that is a weakness for me, Trish, so you really have hit a chord with that.
I guess I'm a little clueless on how to do that. If I show my sadness, he runs. If I show anger, he runs faster. If I show happiness, he seems indifferent. If I show frustration, he's quick to point out that he's not going to be around to help me work through it... at least talking about it to him.
And I'd like to say that his friends are feeling the same distance from him that I do. He will not discuss personal things with them. And they are clearly baffled by his unwillingness to work through whatever it is that he's feeling.
How do I show him that side of me if he's not willing to watch?
When I really need to discuss R things, I think I'm married to the finest actor in Denver. I can literally see him put on a mask. His blue eyes get a glazed over look and his posture visibly changes to rigid and very uncaring.
I'm sick of living with someone who shows absolutely NO affection! If I asked him for a hug, I honestly think he would say no.
When we were in MC last summer, he would be congenial and nice on the way, but that masked and costumed man would enter the room. I addressed it the very first appointment and he didn't say anything. Our MC told me to "lighten up".
K later told me that he was a little miffed that I had noticed it. But said he secretly knew that what I had said was the truth.
Controlling my anger? Yes, this is something I've really had to work on this year. It was his chief complaint when we were in MC in 1999 and again as he walked out the door.
Trish, he ABHORS any display of negative emotion. He can't stand to watch debates on the TV because they are riddled with conflict and it makes him uncomfortable. I can tell you that the fact that I've worked on it, and worked on my expression of it, has helped quite a bit.
But I guess I need some help here.
Remember, I'm in the forest and you have the helicopter. I'm confused... and you have a more clear picture on my sitch than I do.
What would you tell me to do? I see that you are upset with the way I handled myself lately, but I guess I need a play-by-play detail on how you feel things would have worked in my favor and in favor of my M?
Yes, I want to solve this. But forgive me if I'm feeling a little lost after your post.
Thanks for your honesty.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
I am not upset with the way you've handles yourself. I am very very proud of you. I just felt like things getting a little off track.
I am extremely proud of you and in awe of the way you have persevered. I am actually more concerned with well meaning friends who want to encourage and don't realize by doing so they mask issues that need to be addressed not dismissed as "fish food".
I know you are strong enough to handle just about anything and was hoping you would take what I said and give it the some serious consideration.
I thank gd1 for her insights as well because she also seemed to grasp what I was saying.
I am glad you didn't make the casserole!!
He most definitely mudddied the waters with multiple issues when faced with having to talk about an uncomfortable issue, the question was why.
I believe we both know this is a defense mechanism on his part to aviod a perceived reaction from you......
It worked for his immediate purposes but it also meant avoiding telling you any furthur info, which is what you are alluding to here...he didn't come out with all of it.
Of course you are not the only person who gets stuck on something and can't move on...in fact I don't see you doing that very much at all..You have an amazing ability to move forward in a positive way even thought things may be difficult. I think you just may be asking something of him that he cannot do....just yet.
And it was great that you wrapped up the convo because of the circumstances not because you wanted off the phone I apologoze if I musread that...it had seemed from the post like you were avoiding furthur conversation except about what ever YOU wanted to talk about.......however how it appeared to Mr. W is another thing....and I can only go on what was conveyed in the posts....in other words not as much detail about the end of the convo as you just put here.... Okay, so if you want to have him tell you something with conviction, in a self assured voice....and I do believe you do......then you must create an environment in which he can do this. This is VERY tricky, because of his family history and because of past interaction with you, so this will be a great challenge but I know you can and have done this on occassion. But he's really gonna need this alot more....he hasn't yet accepted that you are not going to be disaapointed(notice I did not say blast him) when he has something to tell you which he thinks you may not like....
Showing the soft side stuff is easy for me....but I realize it's not for everyone....it takes a little practice and nerve....it ain't easy! It can make you sick to your stomach because you are so vulnerable to rejection...but I know you are capable!! He's watching all the time!! Even if you don't realize it ....and don't let his bluff fool you...he's indifferent because he doesn't yet know what to trust and what to believe about what you are saying, doing, or meaning.....That's why honesty os sooooo important...even if it means you get hurt first...
A mojor dose of seeing you be honest about your feelings may encourage him to be honest about his...but I would expect him to test the waters quite a bit before being REAL with his feelings all that much....just watch it!! he may say something very revealing about his feelings and you are going to have to be super sensitive to that sharing!
About the affection ...that will come...he wants it too!!( all those bathroom conversations tell me and he does something as intimate as making your bed!!) He's just a little unsure of where that leaves him when he let's you know he needs or wants it....
.Hug him...don't wait for him.
I know you are trying, but he oops shoot I just lost the rest of my post!!!
Betsey, Your head must be spinning- lots to think about, isn't there, my friend? I just want to say this- I understand that our emotions get the best of us at times. I can totally understand that you were first upset with the big news, but then came to see it in a new light. There are times when H makes me crazy, but I come here and vent and by the time I get back to H about it, the big deal is now something quite small. Many times I feel stuck in the same place you're in. I have been told so many times that my reactions are not "right" ("I hate when you cry", "Why do you react so defensively?" "Why is this making you angry?") that I begin to spend time trying to find the "right" way to react in order to bring about the best type of conversation. I look at it as the necessary evil to get the ball rolling.
I respect Trish for saying what she needed to say. We are all here for the same reason. Trish, I guess we all come from different perspectives. It is essential that we all share what we have. We need to go over every angle in order to get the full picture. Your experience is going to help Betsey in a way that mine can't. I know it was scary and difficult to do what you did. I'm quite sure Betsey knows that a real friend isn't only there for the easy stuff. This is not about "right" and "wrong" as I am sure you all know. It is about what is right for Betsey, what's right for her H, what's right for Meredith, etc...
To me, your post is the best kind. Anything that gives me something to seriously think about is very well appreciated. I can't speak for Betsey, of course, but since her mind works at twice the speed of mine, well, I'm thinking she likes having something new to roll around in there. Maybe she'll find a hard truth, maybe she'll find something to disagree wtih. Either way, it will bring about some serious soul searching.
It's all yours, Bets. You give us so much of your time. Take all you need now to dig thru all of that. We're here for you!
Actually what I am saying is don't "control" your anger...... acknowledge it and let him know you are feeling it...He needs to get de-sensitized to it. I think maybe he just didn''t get enough of any OTHER feelings from you for awhile EXCEPT anger...but you have come a long way from that........
He needs to find out from you, that you can be mad and it has nothing to do with him.
and he doesn't have to come up with an answer for it each time..... Let him know this.
Each time you are angry he doesn't need to come up with a response all he has to do is listen....he can completely ignore it and that would be okay with you....let him have an out on the anger.....like you said he is not responsible for your feelings...anger,sad, mad, happy, sorry, sick, whatever.... that it's no big deal, we all have feeling and we all decide how important each one is at any given moment....Obviously something his mother never taught him!!
I'm sorry I might be muddying the waters for you too....
I just saw so many things about him that were being ignored I felt you were not seeing the forest through the trees...
You have some real good opportunities to show him your soft side....your real genuine side, go ahead and risk his reaction........let him squirm....let him try and hide or avoid...YOU are not the people on TV and he can avoid that all he wants but not YOU!! but don't you avoid letting him know your feelings especially. You will be doing your relationship a favor by sharing yourself with him...
You can share your feelings in a great way I see you do it here all the time....what if everything was great in your relationship? How would you be communicating to him then? now do it....
Love and hugs to you!!!! From a cheerleader who just imploded on the bb Trish
ps: I will come up with more ways for you to show your soft underbelly!!
Well, I'm sitting here in my bathrobe and sniffling on the sleeves because my cousin seems to have used up all my kleenex. Thanks for your posting afterward. I'll admit that I'm feeling pretty down now and a little paralyzed. There will be no church or grocery shopping for me today.
I have to vent here so I can move on, and this is not directed at you.
I'm just so sick of him! It's been okay for him to hole up in some damned dingy apartment and live in solitude and six packs while I tend to life that is still happening outside of his cloister!
Yes, I'm pissed!
He gets to come over and grace us with his presence, which do periodically include some tasks getting done that I can't do or don't know how to do. And then he tells me that he's done them so I can tell him how much I appreciate them.
But who the hell is thanking me? I haven't had one f*ing acknowledgment from him or anyone else in his blasted family! How about, "Bets, I know it's really hard to take care of the girls and yourself during the week without my support. And I respect you for sticking in there for me."
No, I get some lame ass P/A notification that he's moving to a bigger place but he's scared to death of what I'm thinking or going to say about his choices!
What about me? Huh? I raise the girls literally solo during the week and he still schedules bowling and golf tournaments on days where he has them. This forces me to rearrange any downtime or time with friends that I have scheduled for myself. Time that I don't get while he's playing mole in his cave.
Not that he gives a flying f*ck.
Just once, why couldn't he have started the emotional ball rolling by saying, "I know that this is going to disappoint you, but I need to tell you why I'm doing this."
Why can't he express himself honestly instead of waiting for me to pull it out of him?
He seems to hold my feelings against me, because demonstrating them is a big turnoff to him. On one hand he seems to tell me he needs to see my weaknesses, but then he walks away when I need comforting or validation.
In his mind, the way he has treated me, that job is for my friends. When I get upset, he walks away. When he comes back (this is before he moved out), I'd need to discuss them. Granted, my emotions were all over the place and really messy, but I had not figured out how to work through them until now.
He'd give me a moderately disgusted look and say, "Why don't you call Leslie? She's good about listening to you when you're like this."
Well, so was Joe! He was my childhood friend who I came perilously close to having an affair with (and I did have an EA). All it took for me to have feelings for him was the fact that he was breathing, listened to me and told me I was nice.
Well, if that's all it takes for me to have feelings for someone, I'm pathetic! How hard of a job is it for K to fill? He used to be that guy before he headed down a road of depression and alcohol indulgence.
So the question is, how do I show him I'm vulnerable without him walking out of the room? Trish, D9 has watched him do this to me multiple times and hates when he walks out on me in mid-sentence.
I need to put some laundry in and I'll be back.
Thanks!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Oh, Betsey... we should have bought stock in a kleenex company...
And aren't there maps to tell us where to go and what to do? With all the tears and salt water... I suppose they'd be worthless anyway.
Early after the bomb, my H told my my being strong was NOT a good thing. Although I had been to one to run the house, take care of the kids, etc. BY MYSELF all the time. As a matter of fact, my H trained me to be strong, by being completely, totally wrapped up in his career.
And the reality is, if I was not the strong woman that I am, I literally would be dead, as I thought about that MUCH after the multiple bombs were dropped ... I am sure you know that feeling...
So, do we show our soft underside? Do we dare? After being trained by DR to act as if we can handle anything, act as if everything is wonderful in our lives. Do we let our Hs see us be vulnerable? I have no clue. I want to know. And I am afraid showing my true feelings, which to be honest, are a raw, open weeping mess (yes, even a year after bomb #1) for fear that it will scare my H.
I don't know if he is afraid of hurting me more and therefore does not talk to me... or does he think I don't care because I am happy when I talk to him or see him?
I am completely confused. So, in times of confusion, I'm doing nothing.
When you find that map, or another mask with name and phone number, let me in on it, okay? Otherwise, I think the only thing we can do is... Keep Swimming.
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
I'm deathly afraid of his rejection one more time. I'd like to go back in time a bit and share some information that I've never posted. Actually, I've never shared this with another soul, and now I'm going to blab it to the world.
I'm fairly certain Mr. W. feels he "rescued" me when we began as friends so long ago. I had moved to CA by myself, with no friends or family and had begun a traumatic breakup with my guy of 2 years.
I know he enjoyed the fruits of his empathy: I moved closer to him when he validated me. But I think it is very important to understand that he did validate me, he did offer me words of encouragement as another man broke up with me (that I was attractive and nice) and provided physical comfort for my sorrow.
Once he started to court me, my sorrow was expected to go away. Why? I was supposed to understand that HE was my knight in shining armor. Well, life doesn't work that way. Why not? Because he was not responsible for my unhappiness, which makes him not the solution to my happiness either.
Let's flash forward to February 2000. We receive definitive word that D6 (who was then just about D3) clinched her diagnosis. I can honestly say that this was one of THE MOST agonizing moments in my personal history.
While I had known that things weren't right and that she was behind, until that moment I held out hope that she would one day speak (I will always long to hear the words I LOVE YOU, MOM from her mouth), go to college, hold a job, marry and have children.
In that single moment, my life tapestry was brutally ripped to shreds with a knife. I see things differently now because I have done a lot of work in healing.
But back then, it was tormenting and full of anguish. I was, in the span of a phone call from Texas, the mother to a little girl who was defined as mentally retarded, mute, epileptic and would be dependent on us financially, physically and emotionally for the rest of her days here on earth.
It was more than I could bear.
I woke up the following morning, literally paralyzed in grief and despair. I crawled into the shower, where I lay at the bottom in a heap, sobbing hysterically. I literally crawled out of it, wet, and slumped onto the step that led to the garden tub.
There was my husband, blinking back the tears while shaving. He looked down at me with empathy but fear. I realize now that he fears me being anything but happy.
He inquired why I seemed so distraught. All I could do was sob, my body shivering with despair and racking with guilt and dismay. He sat down next to me on the stoop and hugged me. He cried a bit and held me while I allowed my spasms to go full circle until they finally stopped.
He let go of me, stood up and said, "It feels better to get that crying done. But there is really nothing you can do about this, Bets. Quit feeling sorry for yourself and get yourself dressed. We have a lot going on today."
I see that he didn't know what to do with his own feelings about our new information. I understand that and I empathize with it. But that stance has been his M.O. all along.
He would then sing me the lines of that dumb song, "Don't worry, be happy."
Well, if you don't know what sadness is, how will you know what happiness is?
I've been there. And I would spare anyone else the experience.
How do I express my vulnerabilities to someone who has to have them packaged very neatly with a fairy tale ending?
I'm always expected to put on my cheery smile after I cry. Why can't I just be allowed to be sad until I feel it's okay to be happy again? Why am I then accused of leading a pity party?
I need him to show ME some emotions. To cry about the life that we share together (some of it is sad, but it makes me happy in the long run). To express frustration with our life. To express the things that bring him joy. To tell me that he's scared of taking care of our daughter. To tell me that he doesn't blame me for what happened.
Instead, I get blank space, occupied by a 6' man with a blank expression, arms of steel and a heart of stone.
What do I do about this?
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Thank you. I read your post on your thread and am plagued with the same dilemma.
Right now, I need to go out to the garage and find the kleenex and then take an advil before taking a nap.
You're right on about the part when you said you'd be dead if you weren't as strong. So if that is the other blade of our double edged sword, what do we do?
Yes, keep swimming for sure. I have made sure that all our communications are neat and tidy and without conflict. This is the only way I get the vanity chit chat and other peace offerings. But the minute I show something that is not clear cut and dried, he's so out of here.
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Ahh, Bets - Don't you know that's how a lot of men deal with their emotions? They are supposed to be the strong one, the provider, the protector, the fixer. They deal with things by looking for solutions, not by talking about how they feel. He must have been scared to death, wondering how he could "fix" this, and seeing you fall apart, and knowing he couldn't "fix" it.
Neither of you were "wrong" in your responses - just different.
You were both just two terrified young people trying to get through a crisis the best you knew how.
I know you're having a blue day, but don't choose this time to dwell on things, okay? How about going to a movie? I saw Calendar Girls with my mom - very cute. (Hey, maybe we should plan a nude "girls of divorcebusting" calendar? )
Ellie
(Disclaimer - yes, I know what I just said about men's responses is a gross generalization, and actually we are two overlapping bell curves - I know this because in my house, WOMEN are from MARS and MEN are from VENUS Still, it's a useful way to understandf some things.)
