First, it reminded me how NOT detached I truly am.
Exactly, glad you're finally seeing that
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My problem is this, I do not know how to show her my changes. That is not to say that I am wishing to "SHOW" her, it is simply that we do not interact in anyway shape or form.
That text exchange was a HUGE interaction and great opportunity to show her 180's. Sympathy, respect and validation would have been great 180's. This one didn't go well, but learn from it and hopefully the next convo will be better.
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Of course she isn't seeing any changes. She is wrapped up in the "opposite teams" idea so much, that she isn't even open to simple conversations.
Be honest with yourself here, ask yourself if perhaps you have not exactly been open to simple conversations either and if maybe you too have been caught up in the "opposite teams" idea.
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I just don't know how to handle her anymore. Regardless of how I engage her, she just seems to grow angrier or use our interaction to remind me how "DONE" she is.
Here is the irony, when I read her comments they don't sound like someone that is done, they sound like someone that is frustrated and desperately seeking a solution. The only solution she sees right now is D, because you haven't shown her a better solution. But I don't think that is the one she wants, at least it doesn't sound like it in her words.
It's coming through loud and clear that she feels like it's her against the world, regardless of what you think, her perception (and her perception is frankly all that counts here) is that YOU have gathered everyone against her, that YOU have turned them all against her. Ask yourself if that is even 1% true, and ask yourself what you can do right now to change that dynamic. If you really want to reconcile, then first swallow your pride and go to EVERY friend, family member and customer and tell them you had a talk with your W and that she is really hurting from the way she's being treated. Apologize to them for giving them the wrong impression of your W, tell them what a warm, caring person she is and that if you told them anything that made them think otherwise that you were wrong. Confess your sins to them! Tell them you weren't the best husband, that she is doing what she feels is best for her because of the pain she's been through and that you SUPPORT her decision. GET ON HER SIDE. If you can do this, you're well on your way to healing and becoming an even better you. You may think it'll be embarrassing, but I think you'll gain respect from these people, and from your W as well. This actually isn't as difficult as it sounds. I did it, and you actually start feeling pretty good about yourself and your W when you talk her up to others.
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I do wish to reconcile. I would take my wife back in a second. However, she doesn't want to come back.
Why do you think it's called "walkaway wife syndrome"? Of course she doesn't want to come back. None of them do. At first. That's the script. Why are you letting THAT effect you? You KNOW that's the script. You KNOW they all say that. Let's talk about your DB'ing instead. You can do this. It's NEVER too late.
The more I go through this process, the more I think I may be a person who just doesn't know how to communicate. While I do admit that I wasn't "trying" to DB during our conversation, I had no idea that I was so belittling or disrespectful of her feelings. I honestly thought I was more or less nuetral. From listening to you both, I clearly was not.
Here is one issue that I am realizing I definitely have. I don't think I know how to validate without reciting it from a script. I don't think that makes me a bad person. I honestly don't feel that I am. It does however make me a bad communicator, especially where wife is concerned. Take this for example:
W:I guess we both wish we could have changed each other. I wanted you to treat me like you loved and cared for me while we were together and you want me to try now that we are apart. Maybe we just we not meant to be.
W:I know you dont accept my choice but for once in our marriage please respect my wishes to move on. I am sorry (husband) but that is what I want. I havent waivered on that at all.
How would I respond to that, validate her feelings and make her feel that I am truly supportive? I didn't realize that my actual repsonse was that bad. Obviously it was.
I am also having a really tough time making small talk, just like AS suggested. I feel a little closed off myself, because deep down I feel that she just wants us to hate each other. That makes it tough for me to try to engage her in a fun loving, light hearted way. I just end up being short and to the point.
Today, W was out in the property visiting. She had daughter, but we were supposed to do a swap for the evening. I really focused when I went out there and engaged her friend in fun small talk. I also played with the kids and acted very upbeat. W addressed me in a nice cordial way. It was a decent interaction. No doubt in my mind in a healthy marriage, when I left both women would have said, "what a great guy". However, later in the afteroon W was driving out of the driveway. I waived at her and although she did waive back, she did it with a scowl. That is just hard for me. I understand why she feels this way. I understand why it is happening, but that doesn't make it any easier for me (being a bad comminucator and not truly knowing how to validate) To address her in a way that will spark interest. I mean every time I open my mouth is seems I am making the situaton worse and not even realizing it. I simply don't know how to respond.
When W says something like "I don't love you and I want to be divirced as soon as possible", How do I even start to turn that around? Do I just smile and be happy go lucky? What would I even say? How would I even respond?
I am just lost....completely lost. I don't even know how to act anymore.
When W says something like "I don't love you and I want to be divirced as soon as possible", How do I even start to turn that around? Do I just smile and be happy go lucky? What would I even say? How would I even respond?
How about... "I have come to understand how you feel that way. It makes me sad to think my words and actions have fostered those feelings in you.".
Certain words do not reflect validation of opinions and/or feelings, IMO... Could, might... eg... "I understand how you might feel that way" or "I understand how you could feel that way".
"because deep down I feel that she just wants us to hate each other..."
Quit assuming this... Stop. Desist. Seriously.
Thoughts become words which become actions which become habits... Negative thoughts become part of your aura. People can sense it.
“Things turn out best for the people who make the best out of the way things turn out” ― Art Linkletter
Sp, I have been a very poor communicator in the past. I'm still a work in progress. Many things I said had a double meaning, there was what was on the surface and then the subtext, the lesson I was trying to get across. It was very subtle and I didn't even realize it much of the time because I hadn't faced all the fear, hurt and resentment inside me.
It took listening to people here on the boards, lots of reading and studying and facing myself, digging for my motives, slowing down and thinking. Asking myself, what is it I really want to convey?
You're probably trying to change things you learned without really knowing you were learning it. Listen to those close to you, do you hear the words they're speaking but know there's a hidden meaning?
Learning to communicate honestly, without a hidden agenda is like learning to speak a foreign language.
Change doesn't happen overnight, it takes work, lots of work and for me the help of a very good IC.
But every painful step has been worth it.
You've said many times how much you love your D and would do anything for her. I can't think of a better, more life changing gift than her learning from you how to communicate honestly and with compassion.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Here is one issue that I am realizing I definitely have. I don't think I know how to validate without reciting it from a script. I don't think that makes me a bad person. I honestly don't feel that I am. It does however make me a bad communicator, especially where wife is concerned. Take this for example:
W:"I guess we both wish we could have changed each other. I wanted you to treat me like you loved and cared for me while we were together and you want me to try now that we are apart. Maybe we just we not meant to be.
W:I know you dont accept my choice but for once in our marriage please respect my wishes to move on. I am sorry (husband) but that is what I want. I havent waivered on that at all."
How would I respond to that, validate her feelings and make her feel that I am truly supportive? I didn't realize that my actual repsonse was that bad. Obviously it was. The "BOLD" letters are what I BELIEVE are her main messages. It's not about her moving on. It's about how you made her feel.
I wish you'd said "I'm so sorry for that w, and you're right. I should have treated you better and showed you how much I cared for and loved you. I didn't know how & I made hurtful mistakes. If I had it to do over again, there are a lot of things I would do differently."
You are NEVER to bring up HER deficiencies. Why?
Because you're not in piecing and not even then, you MODEL growth and self improvement for her. If she's really into a reconciliation, her own motivation will reveal itself and she will work on herself.
Sure, there may be things you two actually do not know about yourselves that the spouse finds annoying, and those will at some point need to be shared in as loving a way as possible.
But the dealbreakers are, or ought to be, obvious. Certainly obvious before any reconciliation.
It frustrates me no end to see LBS talk about what THEY want their WASs to change or "work on" to better THEMSELVES, the minute there is interest from the WAS. It's like the LBS forgot that there were reasons the WAS walked away...
in some cases (and I think you do this score keeping SP) It's like you put it away for awhile, but you kept the score card hidden
and you are READY to pull it out fast, even when she's just talking to you about life in general, b/c you don't want to look OR be the one who "does all the work." I say, "why not be that one?"
Newsflash...the spouse who wants to reconcile the most, needs to take the first step, and the next step, and the next thousand steps...
and not worry about what the other is doing.
As for communication...a lot of men lately, have told me that. It's weird to me b/c I'm very direct. I would just ask my spouse a question, I THINK...(would I? Gosh I like to think so)
But at least two men have told me that they "never talked about why" their wives refused sex for several months or years. I'm baffled by that. How could you NOT ask what was going on for that? What was their fear, since they were not getting affection anyhow?
So you are not alone in poor communication skills, vis a vis your w.
On one hand, I totally get the fear of rocking the boat. To an extent we ALL have that.
If things are rocky between you, you don't want to make them worse
AND OR
if things are going well, you don't want to wreck the good time you were having.
What then? A "state of the union" check in, every month? I happen to like that idea.
It takes the initial "buy in" for both parties to trust that it won't turn into a b1tc3 session.
But don't let it. And then when you learn to keep it to less than 30 minutes a month, and you do it in a way that is not accusatory, you will learn a lot about each other.
What about doing that with your wife as it relates to your d? Nothing formalized at first.
Meaning, you will have numerous chances to engage in conflict resolution or problem solving about your daughter, in the coming years.
HOW you resolve conflict and problem solve, is far more important than the number of conficts or problems. Face it, life throws more at some couples.
"Check in" with each other.
Let's take a HYPOTHETICAL in which you both agreed that you had a tendency to scare your daughter with your fast (but arguably safe) driving or the truck has a loud back fire, OR you have a loud laugh that startles her. (Do not try to 'even this out' by finding a fault for your wife to work on...OMG do not. Just MODEL this and realize you lose nothing by modelling improvements without her doing the same. You gain...)
Besides, It's Not a big bad evil trait. But it's something you'd like to modify for your daughter's sake, and maybe only til she's older...
So, instead of fighting about it, or arguing or denying it,
what if you were to ask your wife now and then, "hey, I've been working on not being so loud when I laugh around d. How am I doing on that?"
Or ask your d, in front of your wife, what SHE your daughter thinks...
this reveals the gift/ability to face up and repair a trait simply b/c it matters to her.
AND it shows a lighthearted self acceptance.
No self loathing man could do this.
Only a man who loves himself in a healthy way can openly admit he's working on a trait he wants to change in himself. (THEN perfection!! )
I saw a great man do this (the conductor of the EE workshop actually).
He asked his then 8 year old son something like "Christopher, remember our talk last month? Well I've really been working hard not to snap around you when I'm working. So, can you tell me, how am I doing with that?"
The son took the question very seriously, and reflected.
In that moment, I could see that the son felt valued by his hero father, asking HIM, a mere boy of 8, how he, the HERO DAD was doing...and all this for his son.
The boy beamed afterwards and "congratulated" his dad on his progress by shaking his hand or patting his back. I can't recall exactly, but they both seemed like best friends at that moment. It was a small but heartwarming moment
and bittersweet too. My dad could have made some small adjustments that would have meant the world to me, but I had no tools for telling him that.
I was a kid. He was used to pontificating (a lawyer and public speaker by profession)
so, see if there's anything in that story that helps you
envision what healthy constructive LOVING feedback would look like and how you could RECEIVE it, b/c I think you do enough giving it. Don't "react", just process it.
Learn to see and Consider feedback of any kind, of value.
It's "intel", like in a reconnaissance mission, you need the intelligence data to make an informed choice.
Finding out there's a trait your spouse hates or fears in you, is valuable. Learn from it. Maybe someday, bond from it b/c of your willingness to change it.
When you and your wife deal with your d's school plans and play dates and bully kids and mean teachers and hobbies of hers, not to mention her heartbreaks and real school issues,
be on her team. Like AS said, get on her side.
If you live in the type of place or have the type of family that banishes people like your wife, and models UNforgiveness
it's going to cripple any relationship you have. It's up to you to stop that from happening. And you know you or someone in your family is tearing your wife down. If you told them that you wish they would not do that BECAUSE IT HURTS YOU and your d
b/c even if you divorce, your w will always have been the love of your life and you've loved her for a long part of your life. At some level you always will.
How can it be good to hear her put down? It does not make you "right" or better, to have her "wrong" or inferior.
Hope you really think about this SP. You're a smart guy and you seem willing to listen...
it's the implementation of your new ways that trips you up. Practice. Seriously, you have to practice.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Lastnight, daughter and I went on a motorcycle ride. She has been on the back several times, but she is really getting comfortable at this point, looks all around, waives at other motorists. She loves it. We went for a 2 hour ride for dinner. We met up with another biker friend of mine along the way. We met up with a group of people at a fun resturaunt with some other kids. It was a great day in the sun. We ended up running late. I was supposed to have D back to her mom by 7:00. We ended up home closer to 9:00. I kept an update via text going with W and she was okay with me keeping D longer than expected. On the ride home, D put her head againt my back and really relaxed, almost fell asleep I think, just like her mom used to do when we were first together. W and I used to spend a LOT of time on the motorcycle.
When I brought D home to mom, W could see how much fun we had been having. We chatted lightly about how good D did and how much fun we had. I expressed to W how much d was like her on the back of the motorcycle, gathered my things, hugged D and off I went. It was as very good end to a rough day.
A little more about my lack of communication skills, and this one seems fairly obvious to everyone but me.
What I got from wifes texts were, that she is DONE, moving on and not even thinking about looking back. I feel her words had incredible conviction to end this chapter of her life. I didn't hear any insight to make me feel otherwise. I haven't for a while thought there was the slightest bit of hope.
However, some of you felt that wasn't the full message. Perhaps she isn't as done as I might think. Perhaps she is, but now I don't know. From her words and actions, I have felt she is COMPLETELY 100% done for some time. Is there a chance I am just not hearing what she is saying in the undertones, or I am not hearing the full message?.....it makes me sick to think I have had countless opertunities to put a twist in our current dynamic, but I have failed almost every single time.
Holy crap! I just came away with another new insight. Those were some amazing replies... labug and 25years offer a perspective a man could never have.
I couldn't agree more. Thank you ALL, for your perspecitve and insight.
I took a moment and tried something that I thought I would appreciate from someone else, a simple gesture that didn't require any response. I sent W a text picture of some flowers we picked and put in a vase a while ago. Along with it I sent a text saying....
"April showers bring May flowers. I hope you enjoy your day, W. The weather is going to be beautiful".
I hope to have some more opertunities to practice my validation and communication a little more. The part 25 said about the LBS needing to take the first step, and the next step, really rang true. I think I don't fully realize how much I HAVE TO WORK to accomplish this. It's not a two way street at the moment. I have to do the driving......I'm going to start practicing right now!
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