If you think back to reading DB/DR, Michelle points out that therapists are trying to help you feel better, not restore your marriage.
Exactly. Most therapists are just professional validators. It's funny because once you know what validation is, when you sit in a therapy session you just shake your head when you realize that it's ALL that most therapists do. They just sit there listening, nodding, asking you how you feel about that, asking you to explore your feelings, etc. They mostly tell you what you want to hear by mirroring back what you're saying.
Chris, here's what your therapist told you:
"My therapist worries that it may be more of here's examples of you failing, and it won't be productive, just hurtful for me. She worries that my W has not stated any goal for her in having the conversation...."
And here is what you posted to us:
"I have to be completely honest here. My W has already made me(or at least i feel) feel that everything wrong in this is my fault, and from her side that maybe it is, and that's natural. But, I don't know if I can mentally and emotionally take this conversation...I'm already carrying HUGE guilt from everything she has said that it has cost me my family."
Don't you see, your therapist is just mirroring your thoughts back to you. That's all she's doing. You don't want to have the convo with W, so she's just telling you exactly what you want to hear. She's validating your feelings. Here's the problem, that MAY NOT be what's optimal for your W and your M. And that's where we come in, we will sling the 2x4's at you that your therapist never will.
Sorry I've been dark again, I went away for a few days...more on that in a minute.
My W told me on Wednesday that she had a horrible headache and wouldn't be coming over to talk. She didn't mention a new time to talk, and I didn't ask, so as not to pressure her.
I went away for the weekend, got back last night. Went to visit my sister and family. My brother was also there, which was great. The three of us hadn't been together since my wedding. It was a really nice weekend.
Another scenario that came up last Thursday. On Thursday night I was out at a sports thing. My phone rang and it was W. She said that D didn't want to stay with her that night, but, wanted to go to my house. I explained I wouldn't be home until later. W said if it was okay, shelf bring her to my house, get her read for bed and stay until I got home. I said sure thing.
When I got home D was just asleep. I was doig some things around the house and W came into the kitchen and asked how my day had been.. She also mentioned that I had changed the (our) bedroom around. I smiled and replied really good, how about yours? I then said, yes, I just felt like I needed to make it feel more like my own. She then told me it was okay she guessed...But had a weird look on her face and hesitated. I asked her if everything was okay. She told me she felt odd all day. I said that's not good, do you feel sick or what's going on? She the began to tell me how she has no idea who she is anymore or what will make her happy. That when she was in the house, she feels comfortable, and feels like its where she belongs. But she the tells herself she made the decision to leave and why. She then said she felt like she should feel more comfortable in her new place, and does at times, but doesn't other times. I asked her how it made her feel in her head and heart. She said it made her feel odd and confused. She the told me how it was the hardest decision of her life to "have to stop loving me" and did I think she had wanted to give up her life and be living in a small apartment? I told her I couldn't imagine how hard of a decision that was, and how painful. That I was sorry she felt she had to make it, but, I would help and support her anyway I could. I said that it has been nearly 2 months and if she wanted to we could start talking, I would listen to any/everything she has to say. That I was concerned for her, and why her heart and mind seemed conflicted. She then told me that we couldn't just start over again, that we'd be back in the same place in 6 months. I told her I wasn't asking/pressuring her to start over or commit. I reiterated that maybe we should just start with her talking and me listening, and us spending that time together over coffee, etc and we see how we do. She was crying and said she would start talking. But she said she couldn't commit to anything (meaning R) because she didn't know who she was anymore or what she wanted in life. That she wouldn't know if she would be the same person in 6 months. I told her I understood, because I know feel similar. That this has forced me into inner exploration and to become a better and happier person and I didn't know where the road would lead either. But, I thought we should both continue our IC, I told her I would be, and we could start talking to each other if and when she wanted to. It was up to her. She said she would, and said she had to go home to bed, she was too emotional and exhausted.
Over the weekend, she stayed with D at my house to take care of our dog. I spoke to her every day for D. She would ask how my trip was, and how i was doing. I would reply fantastic (it really was!) and i was doing well. She would say thats great. I would then ask her how she was dong, and her response was "You know, I'm okay..."
So, I do not know what to make of all of this. I'm not going to rush in or push. Is this a standard thing for a WAS? or is my W really "thinking"? I don't want to get caught up in mind reading though...
Hi Chris, I saw your post and thought I'd add my 2 cents. It does sound like she's rethinking things. It sounds like focussing on yourself and "acting as if" is doinng the trick and giving her the room she needs to really think about things. Good for you.
As an outsider whose not fully familiar with your sitch though, I would probably want to encourage you not to be overly enthusiastic right now. For one thing, it could be temporary, in which case you'd be setting yourself up for a letdown. On the other hand, if she's serious about it, rushing right in might make her feel as if you want to brush over all the changes that would still have to be made to have a healthier R in the future. Baby steps are what is called for right now. Keep listening and validating and most of all give yourself and your W time. Be patient. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you guys.
M41 W42 M 12 T 15 S10, D9, twin Ds 3 1/2 BD 1/2/2013 Living as roommates Working on D agreement w. mediator 5/13
The "I don't know who I am or what I want" thing is an inflection point. I believe that you are best served by not being too available through this phase, as hard as that is.
Why? She's trying to decide what she wants.
When she's by herself in her small apartment and don't have you for emotional support it will force her to think. If she's miserable she'll be apt to remember the good times with you and start to romanticize them.
When you are in her presence, however, she'll be apt to be reminded of why she left and focus on the pain and the negatives. Despite your 180's, your mere presence is going to work against you until she is more receptive to a new you.
From my perspective if she starts to talk about moving home or spending more time together, you need to play a bit hard to get. Make her question if you're just on the shelf waiting for her, or if maybe you're enjoying this new space you've found.
People value what they need to work for, and don't value that which is given freely. Let her pursue YOU if she wants to come back.
This is another part of DB that is completely non-intuitive and your head and heart are going to want to rush in and be her shoulder to cry on. Don't do it. That will land you in friend zone and you want a wife and a partner.
Time for you to lean out so she can lean in.
The stakes are super high right now so don't blow this off -- if you don't believe or disagree challenge us here. Your intuition will fool you and take you down the wrong path. Time to be Iron Chris
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Chris First off way to go brother. I think you handled yourself great on Thursday and in your talks this weekend.
With that, going forward...
I agree 100% with Acc. You just keep doing what you're doing, act like life is great, and make her come to you. This won't be easy because as guys we always want to save the damsel in distress. Hell it works in the movies right? Problem is it doesn't work in our sitches and Acc stated the reasons why.
Keep up the good work
Personality is who the world sees, character is who you are
Yes, Spartan reminds me that I forgot the celebrate the good -- rearranging your room was a genious move, it followed on nicely with giving her some of her things to take with her. The best thing about your room is that you didn't show it to her or tell her about it, she just discovered it. That's key because it doesn't feel like you did it to get her attention, you just did it because that's where you're headed -- perfect!
If you want to follow it up with another thing to do, go get yourself a "professional makeover", which is to say have someone help you with your look -- hair and wardrobe.
This is almost universally recommended for three reasons:
1) If you look better you will feel better, so it's for your own good.
2) Your W thinks she knows you like the back of her hand. When you do something unanticipated it leads her to question her assumptions and makes her wonder what else she doesn't know.
3) Your W will wonder what you're up to, and the mystery works to your advantage
It's not easy to make this happen, it's a pain in the ass, but if you commit to it it can help.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
A few more notes for you as I know you can't see these things when you're too close:
You pursuing:
Originally Posted By: ChrisN
I asked her how it made her feel in her head and heart.
That's a hopeful comment where you are leading her to say that her heart yearns for you or something similar. Just ask how it made her feel.
You pursuing:
Originally Posted By: ChrisN
That I was sorry she felt she had to make it, but, I would help and support her anyway I could. I said that it has been nearly 2 months and if she wanted to we could start talking, I would listen to any/everything she has to say. That I was concerned for her, and why her heart and mind seemed conflicted.
Her distancing in response:
Originally Posted By: Chris' Wife
She then told me that we couldn't just start over again, that we'd be back in the same place in 6 months.
More distancing:
Originally Posted By: Chris' Wife
But she said she couldn't commit to anything (meaning R) because she didn't know who she was anymore or what she wanted in life.
When she makes these statements, these are flags to you that you are pursuing. These are answers to questions you are implying if not directly asking. You are still telling her that you haven't heard that she needs space.
If you're less available, and LESS supportive, she won't need to constantly remind you that she needs space.
Ideally YOU should be the one saying that you're not sure where your paths are going to lead and you're just going to take it day by day.
I know it's hard, but give her space to work through this stuff. You can be supportive, you can validate how she feels, but don't push for more, and don't "lead the witness". "I'm sorry you feel that way, that must be difficult" is about where you want to stop.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Accuray/Chris ~ if I can hi-jack here... what do you say when they say that stuff? I heard it from my h too. TX
M:46 H:49 T:20yrs myD:22 H distant summer/12 H sleeping in b'ment: Nov/12 BD: Dec 2/12 asked me begin to move end of Jan/13 moved Jan 7/13 (left my stuff) "agreed" to "working on r" Mar 3/13(lipservice!)
Mach1 put a brilliant post on this thread earlier up about what to say using "relationship Judo". In short, you just agree with them. "Yes, we don't know what will happen" "Yes, I understand that you are done and are ready to move on". If they think you heard them they won't keep repeating it.
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Chris, job well done on the convo!! It sounds like you did a great job of shutting up and listening, and validating when she expressed emotions. The only small comment I would make is regarding this:
"I told her I understood, because I know I feel similar. "
Don't say things like this because her belief is you can't possibly be experiencing what she's going through, and if you say you do then she'll find it insensitive. But that is just a minor blip in an otherwise great job of validation
Originally Posted By: ChrisN
So, I do not know what to make of all of this. I'm not going to rush in or push. Is this a standard thing for a WAS? or is my W really "thinking"? I don't want to get caught up in mind reading though...
WAS's are confused and in turmoil inside even though they usually don't show it on the outside. Every now and then they might pour out their emotions like this. The proper thing to do is validate and then continue on like nothing ever happened. I know the first time it happened with my W I thought it was a huge turning point and that it was the first step towards piecing. It wasn't. It wasn't anything at all, just her talking out loud a little. Afterwards she went right back to the WAW script. So like the others said already, just stick to DB'ing. Remember the squirrel (or castle) analogy, let her come to you on her timeframe.
