Sorry I've been dark. I've been doing a lot of thinking and other things. Took D away this weekend as W was moving stuff out of house. Tough weekend, but great with D!
I have been taking everything you guys have said to heart. I am trying to focus on me, leave my W alone, and not bring up M discussion.
However, I need your guys help. My W since she left has been Journaling about her feelings, both current and before she left. She says it helps her to process her feelings. She has said that she wants to sit down and share her thinking on how she was hurt, and why she left in more detail when she is ready. When she left she did say some things like completely unhappy, hurtful words said when aruging and felt like i didnt like her at times, or help enough after her sickness. She has shared/opened up to me on her own a couple of times while writing the journal... They have all been instances where I lost my cool in an argument, which I fully understands hurts. However, she is only looking at what I said or did in those instances, and not her role - human nature of course.
Here is my thing, she wants to come over tomorrow night to talk about this. I asked her if this was a doom and gloom conversation. She asked why, and I said, well, I'm worried this will be 15 years of everything I've ever said or done wrong, and while I'll take responsibility for my actions, I don't know if my mental state can deal with that. She said, no, it's not everything you've done wrong, like a list, but it will be a very difficult and hurtful conversation for you that you will have to listen.
I have to be completely honest here. My W has already made me(or at least i feel) feel that everything wrong in this is my fault, and from her side that maybe it is, and that's natural. But, I don't know if I can mentally and emotionally take this conversation...I'm already carrying HUGE guilt from everything she has said that it has cost me my family. Im so conflicted, I know she needs to do this, and if there is any chance for us down the road, I need to let her voice her feelings and hurt and sit there and just listen, not defend myself.
What do I do here? I'm worried that it's going to be an hour or two of how bad a person I am, how I've ruined our lives together, etc.
That would be very tough to listen to and I know it would hurt. It will make you look inward. If it was me I would love if my wife was willing to do something like this. It is very hard for me to get her exact thoughts and feelings. I still feel like we are constantly playing games. As much as it would hurt me to hear all those things about me, I would welcome the chance to hear things she thinks I need to work whether they are true or not. I guess what I am saying is I would have the talk with your W. I would listen and validate where you think its true, stuff that you dont believe to be true dont validate and dont react at all. I know that its going to be really tough to do, but I think the positves definitely out weigh the negatives in what you could take from this conversation with your W
M 37 W 30 S 7 Together 10 years Married 9 years BD: 12/12/12(W filed same day) I moved to apartment 1/11/13 W and S moved to MIL 1/11/13 Peicing: 6/3/13 Reconciled: 7/2013 BD2: 4/20/16 still working on it
M46,W41 D16,D18 M22,T25 BD 11/12 W moved out 01/13 Piecing 10/13 Divorced 01/15 "Whether you worry or not has no affect on the outcome. But, moving forward, letting go, and making changes can." UrWorthy
Here is my thing, she wants to come over tomorrow night to talk about this. I asked her if this was a doom and gloom conversation. She asked why, and I said, well, I'm worried this will be 15 years of everything I've ever said or done wrong, and while I'll take responsibility for my actions, I don't know if my mental state can deal with that. She said, no, it's not everything you've done wrong, like a list, but it will be a very difficult and hurtful conversation for you that you will have to listen.
I have to be completely honest here. My W has already made me(or at least i feel) feel that everything wrong in this is my fault, and from her side that maybe it is, and that's natural. But, I don't know if I can mentally and emotionally take this conversation...I'm already carrying HUGE guilt from everything she has said that it has cost me my family. Im so conflicted, I know she needs to do this, and if there is any chance for us down the road, I need to let her voice her feelings and hurt and sit there and just listen, not defend myself.
What do I do here? I'm worried that it's going to be an hour or two of how bad a person I am, how I've ruined our lives together, etc.
I would start by asking what your end goal is...???
Additionally....
You know how YOU feel about all of those things, and you know what your vantage point was during all of those "bad" times..
And it goes back to what we discussed when you first started posting. You THINK that you understood her, and what she wanted and needed....
How confident are you now ? With this talk looming ??
I would say that the percentages have gone down a bit huh ???
You say that you have guilt now. I would say that whatever it is that you feel guilty about, you don't even know the truth in how she saw certain actions from you. So while you have the right to feel guilty, this is a chance to really understand the depths of that.
And I will say...there is a good chance that things aren't the same as they have been running through your head....
Chris..
IF....IF this is ever gonna work out, all of that anger HAS to come out of her, and she HAS to feel like her complaints were valid, and heard.
Have you always done that ???
Whether or not what she says is true...
It is very true for her, and it is very real for her. And if she is willing to share that, then I would advise you to sit down where you can really LISTEN to her. Grab a nice big cup of STFU, and really listen to her....
Listen to her side of things, how she feels, how she thinks...
Seek to understand her before you need to be understood...
Some of the best advice I ever read here, was ....
Listen without defending, and speak without offending....
So can you do this ?
Doesn't really matter does it ???
How many years did she give to the marriage, with minimal effort from you ???
100% agree with Mach1. The fact that she's willing to do this is a gift. Most WAS are on the crazy train and their thoughts are disjointed and constantly shifting. The fact that she has journaled and organized it is huge because it indicates she's actually doing the work to understand herself! It usually takes a long time for the WAS to get there, my W still has not.
This is a journey, they start out with "all your fault, you are the villain and I am the victim". If you fight and argue against that, it solidifies their position. If you listen and validate, it allows them to move on and eventually get to "this was NOT all your fault." That's a journey they need to take on their own.
This will be very cathartic for your wife. Here's how to handle it: pretend she's talking about the actions of a third party and focus on how she feels. You can't argue about how she feels, it's non-negotiable. Ask follow on questions to clarify, and repeat or reword to confirm understanding but focus on how she felt and not on what happened.
You don't have to agree with her interpretation of events -- avoid those arguments. You can say "I might not remember it that way, but lets focus on how it made you feel".
Do not argue or debate, don't judge or editorialize. Tell her you'd like some time to think about it and plan a follow up discussion after your emotions have time to flush out.
I did this with my W. In the first meeting I just recorded, validated and clarified feelings. In the second meeting, I played back what I heard. You know what happened then? When she heard it played back she realized that some of it was over the top and started to take it back, soften and change her attitudes, but the most valuable part by far is that she felt heard.
Go into it like a researcher studying the situation and be grateful for the opportunity, it's a good thing, it means she cares. Refer back to Mach1's post about Judo.
NO comments allowed like "if I fix that can we get back together" and don't feel the need to overly apologize -- just listen listen listen.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
"The fact that she's willing to do this is a gift. Most WAS are on the crazy train and their thoughts are disjointed and constantly shifting. The fact that she has journaled and organized it is huge because it indicates she's actually doing the work to understand herself! It usually takes a long time for the WAS to get there, my W still has not."
That's what I was trying to verbalize earlier! I would be grateful if my wife did this. Definitely take this as a gift and learn from it
M 37 W 30 S 7 Together 10 years Married 9 years BD: 12/12/12(W filed same day) I moved to apartment 1/11/13 W and S moved to MIL 1/11/13 Peicing: 6/3/13 Reconciled: 7/2013 BD2: 4/20/16 still working on it
IF....IF this is ever gonna work out, all of that anger HAS to come out of her, and she HAS to feel like her complaints were valid, and heard.
Quote:
It is very true for her, and it is very real for her. And if she is willing to share that, then I would advise you to sit down where you can really LISTEN to her. Grab a nice big cup of STFU, and really listen to her....
Listen to her side of things, how she feels, how she thinks...
Seek to understand her before you need to be understood...
Quote:
Listen without defending, and speak without offending....
^^^And these!
Just remember Chris, this isn't the time to reason/ explain/ agree/ disagree/ justify/ etc. Just validate. Listen to her, really listen. Make eye contact. Remove all distractions (no TV, kids, etc.) Take her seriously. Nod. Ask questions, like "how did that make you feel?" Try to get her to explore her feelings. Tell her you understand why she feels the way she does. Don't let your ego get bruised. You're going into this expecting to get beat up, you're already deflated and you don't even know what she's going to talk about yet!! But what you see as a beat-down many of us see as a golden opportunity, one that few of us get. Most of us, we beg our wives to tell us what went wrong and they say "it's too late for that". So we have to guess at what our 180's should be. Your W has offered to hand them to you on a golden platter! Seize the opportunity! This isn't a negative experience, it's a positive one! Respond properly to it and it could be the bridge to healing your W's wounds!
I didn't see Accuray's post before I posted mine (I let the window sit a while before replying) and I ended up repeating his thoughts, so I'll just say "ditto"
