Even though there still seems to be struggles along the way, you are on the right track. The lines of communications are open and you are honest with each other. Your C may not think you're trying but that's BS. Both of you are listening to the other and are making small but important adjustments.
The fact that he wants to be with you is a big thing.
You two will emerge from all of this more solid than you ever imagined. You'll keep making adjustments and eventually you will find the right formula. The important thing (no matter what your C says) is that you are keeping the most important aspect of your M at the forefront while all this is playing out, and that aspect is commitment.
Quote: You two will emerge from all of this more solid than you ever imagined.
You know, Hacker, sometimes I feel like certain little things are stronger. It's a nice change.
No big blowups since the last big blow up. There were some stressful moments over the yard sale. H handled my freaking out pretty well, I thought. I handled his freaking out pretty well. I've been following H's direction to ignore him whenever he orders me to do something or gets critical. This is a hard one, because I don't want him to feel like I don't listen to him at all. So I strive for balance... how often to ignore him... how often to listen. It's not easy.
We're still navigating the treacherous water of how to be partners. He recently told me that I wouldn't support him in a negotiation with a sales person. WTF? Well, he seems to have forgotten that I've sat through two major negotiations with him. The first one I listened to he and the entire sales staff argue for an hour before offering a single suggestion that got H everything that he wanted. In the second negotiation, the salesperson tried to get me to take a side against my H, and I told him point blank that he had to deal with my H, not me. Of course I reminded H of all of this and he said, "Oh."
I don't understand this "Oh" thing that he does so often. I found out that it doesn't mean, "I understand." It usually means, "I'm not going to talk about this anymore."
Back on the issue of partnership, H wants to do all kinds of things for me, but doesn't have time. He thinks I'm being mean when I insist on taking care of some things myself that I know he doesn't have time to do. Meanwhile he's struggling just to get his own world under control and won't accept my help. Well, this is productive. We muddle along, occassionally granting one another permission to help out, so I believe there is hope for us yet.
H is very worried about money right now, which isn't new, but lately he's begun talking about it in a tone similar to someone talking about a pending apocolypse. It was one thing when he was just building horrible worst case scenarios, but now he's researching them. He keeps forgetting that he has me (and other friends) who won't let dire things happen to him. When I point that out he tells me that he doesn't want to be dependent on anyone (duh? Who does?); and we don't know what's going to happen between us. Granted, I'd stop being his best friend if he divorced me, but I wouldn't let ANY of his worst case scenarios happen either. He is extremely resistant to accepting assistance or even cheering up from me. He keeps telling me to take care of my own finances... as though I'm in dire trouble, which I'm not... kind of like "save yourself, I'm lost already." Lots of stinkin' thinkin' if you ask me; and it does NOT help our relationship.
The good news is that he does allow me to rub his feet and scratch his back now, so there's been progress. (That may give away how bad it was before.)
I can tell H thinks we're still "wrong" for eachother. He told me the other day that if it weren't for me, he'd sell everything he owned and start roaming the planet in the spirit of living on the edge, which is the lifestyle he's always loved. Gee, someone should remind me that I didn't ruin his life, because it sure sounds like it when he puts it that way. I asked him why he didn't go out and have his adventures, live off of his retirement and visit his wife from time to time, but he said we wouldn't work out that way. I said, "Okay fine, why don't you go have your adventures and forget me?" He said that I don't understand. Well no reason to argue with that.
Regardless of these things we are working on the R, and I've seen what I call improvement. I always hate to admit that, because Mr. Contrary almost always turns it into another reason why we are doomed to fail. Things are going pretty well in my book. We flirt, we cuddle. He lets me adore him. We talk on the phone and e-mail during the day now (a new one). We miss each other when we're apart. He looks at me like I'm the best thing that ever happened to him. Sex is even making a bit of a comeback... as an activity and a topic of conversation... baby steps here.
We are apart more now. As H has gotten more concerned about money, he has decided to really buckle down and get himself ready for a job hunt. Of course right now he's getting himself ready, to get himself ready and it's all at the expense of spending time with me. I'm not really bent out of shape about it, but I wonder if I should be. Nonetheless, I am being very supportive of this move, and taking the free evenings as an opportunity to get cracking on my house.
I get the feeling I'm being a little too independent for H's preference, but gee... I don't know what to do. He does NOT like my plan to rip out the ceiling in my back bedroom tonight. Of course the best part about not spending the evenings together is that I get to do my home improvement projects without having to hear H fret over it... and he is pleased to enjoy my handiwork when I'm done. I also think I'm not attentive enough when he calls, usually because I'm in the middle of vacuming or watching a movie or ripping down my ceiling, which makes it not a good time to talk. On the other hand, I think I need to work on taking a few minutes out for a decent conversation. Okay, I just had a thought, maybe I should do a make ahead dinner and head over to his place with a surprise supper one night. Of course, I have to get home right away or the dogs will starve, but that gives me an excuse not to be a nuisance to him. Geez, I wish he'd just move home... after I fix the hole in the ceiling... this could be so much easier.
Sounds like you're making progress! Reading that post made me think that a lot of things have changed in a short amount of time.
Now for the 2X4
Quote: I can tell H thinks we're still "wrong" for eachother.
I get the feeling I'm being a little too independent for H's preference
One of the fundamental differences between men and women is that men act and think based on facts and facts alone. Women tend to think based on intuition and feelings. This was one of the overriding reasons why I wound up on the "Big D" board: I didn't follow her intuition and she made decisions without looking at all the facts.
Try not to make assumptions because they will nag you in the back of your mind. If you think things like what you wrote, he may do something tomorrow that makes you think you were right when, in fact, it could be something else bothereing him that has nothing to do with you. You just happen to be someone close that he can vent to or transfer his problem to. It's that whole "projecting problems" thing. Sometimes, you aren't responsible one bit for another's problem but you get the brunt of the blame. It's better to back up those "feelings" and "intuitions" with hard facts.
Right now, from what you are writing, you look like you're both making progress. Remember that neither of you is ever going to be perfect in the other's eyes. Both of you have to learn to accept each other's quirks as along as they do not pose a serious problem in the M. He's got his, you got yours. Don't try to fix everything so that you're perfectly compatible. Just accept them for what they are and focus on the good things.
Try this little exercise: Every morning and every night, think of 5 things that you really like about H and keep those in mind throughout the day and when you go to sleep. When those quirky things come out in him, remember the five things you told yourself. Soon, you will start to see that you hold more and more admiration for him.
Also remember that this is primarily about patience. Focus on the baby steps and the present. Let the big picture and the future take care of itself. You're heading in the right direction. Just keep at it and, eventually, he will be back home.
Don't worry about your "independence". That's a good sign! The more independent you both are, the more the relationship becomes based on wanting to be together, rather than needing to be together. That's good!
Hey, thanks Hacker. I almost never get whacked. It's nice to know you care.
I'll keep all of that in mind. It certainly is true about assumptions. I was reading your scenario and thinking, "That sounds exactly like me." Oops! Sometimes H says stuff, and I have to keep in mind that's just a feeling of the moment.
I also agree about never being perfect. My goal is that we understand and respect each other's differences. It seems like we make little baby steps in that direction all of the time.
Like I said, H is dealing with some problems right now. He does not want to accept my help. We had a long talk about it. He was very complimentary of me and my ability to help him, he just doesn't want to accept my help. I told him that I understood, which gave him pause. I clarified that I knew he wants to handle this on his own and be independent. I also knew that it was harder to accept help from me than from anyone else because I'm his wife and he thinks he should be taking care of me. Then I told him that I understood why he needed to explore other avenues, but that I would be angry if he let false pride guide him toward a course that was less advantageous to him than accepting my help.
He was really listening to me. We even discussed what I need to do to get things set up on my end, if he does need to rely on me. He's the subject matter expert, so he got to give a lot of marching orders, which probably made him feel more in control. I can tell he's feeling very vulnerable right now, so nurturing is the best thing I can do for the time being. We'll pull through this one way or the other.
I just wish it were September. There are so many nice things that are going to happen between now and then, but it seems everything is going to start clicking into place at the end of summer. The house should be in better order by then, so I can decide whether or not I'm going to sell this year. My finances should be organized by then. I might even know whether or not I have cancer, which seems like a good thing to be sure about. I might even have a better idea on how the downsizing is going to go with next year's budget cuts. Believe me, I'm trying hard to enjoy right now, but the future looks so much nicer from here.
Time to say something really great about my H. He was a big help to me this week.
I doubt anyone will remember that I allowed my H to help me with a financial situation last year. It was the first really important favor I let him take on after the bomb, and as is typical, he then left it on his desk for ten months after having pushed me into letting him do it. For my part, I didn't pressure him on it, because I had decided that if he didn't do it, it just wouldn't get done. So in this instance it's better late than never.
Well, it took him two days and cost me $1000, but it seems that he was able to negotiate a deal with this company. Long story, but it's from one of my late-H's medical bills that I didn't even know about. They had reported the account for collection after five years, and I had never even seen a bill. When I contacted them last year, they refused to admit that they hadn't billed me. Grrrr... They wanted proof that I hadn't received a bill. WTF? "This is the air where the bill I did not receive might be occupying if I had received it." Obviously, I don't have the right attitude for this stuff.
H is a pro at dealing with credit issues. Consumer credit law is a hobby of his and he's a very skilled negotiator. So along comes H in flashing armor on his white horse. H called the company and talked to the same woman I talked to last year, but he got her to release a letter explaining the error and removing the entry from my credit report. Hurrah! Obviously, I paid the bill (plus interest), so everyone is happy. Even H seemed a little happy.
H has been down lately... still worried about money. He's gotten moody about the R. He's been grousing about stupid stuff too. For example, I rearranged the house to put my bedroom in the smallest room. Before I moved, he complained about how hard it is to move the furniture. I never asked him to help. Then he complained about how the room is too small... as though he does anything but sleep in the bedroom. Since the move he sits on the side of the bed that's one foot from the wall and complains about how he was right that the room is too small. ??? "Gee honey, you're 6'4", why don't you take your shoes off on the side of the bed facing into the room?" I hate to dismiss his feelings, but I really believe he's mad just because I did it without his input or involvement. Am I missing something here? This the same man who stores tires in the living room. Since when does he care so much about how I arrange the house? Little help...
Well, I've been around, just not posting much. Things with H are still in flux. He floats between self-loathing at his failure to be a stable, loving, contributing part of my life and my inability to dress, think, drive or talk in ways he believes are compatible. We seem to have several days of good times in between these moods, so obviously I'm still missing something.
Two weeks ago, he started in on how it's all his fault that we're still seperated, and how mortified he is to be "powerless" to change things because of all of the things going on in his life. He went on about what a loser he is and how I deserve to have some kind of a commitment from him. I didn't let him off the hook, but I did try to validate. IMO, he is putting things in the way, and has some kind of motivation for keeping commitment on the back burner. I don't think he's a loser, but he needs to do the things he keeps putting off, so that he can make a "real" decision based on what is happening in his life, versus what is going to happen or what is supposed to happen.
We just got back from North Carolina where we attended his god daughter's wedding. We were feted like guests of honor, which H seemed to think himself unworthy. That's totally ridiculous, because his GD adores him and doesn't get to see him very often.
H showed me around where he used to live and work; and by the end of the weekend, I could get just about anywhere without a map. I am very proud of that fact, so I told H about it repeatedly. I also got to be of use to the bride's family by putting out last minute fires, which I love doing. H got to catch up with some old friends and made a few new ones. All in all, it was nice.
When we went to turn in the rental car there was a snag, because I hadn't understood the contract when we checked out; nonetheless, I got it fixed. H was completely annoyed and told me (then) that he new I had it wrong when we checked out the car, but he didn't want to tell me because he can't talk to me. So apparently, there's no way I can win. It's my fault he can't talk to me. It's my fault he couldn't ask the agent to clarify things for us. Obviously it bugged him, because he sat on it for three days... so of course it's my fault that he waited three days to mention it.
I was ticked, but I did not blow up, because being ticked off just confirms that he's right. I stopped at saying, "Yes, I understand that I make you miserable." Then I just stood there in the airport crying. So it's not a heroic moment in DBing, but it wasn't the place to talk about it either. H said nothing, but did manage to find some tissue.
Later, I explained to him that I am frustrated, because I am trying very hard and obviously failing to gain his trust. I asked him what he wanted me to do, to make it easier for him to talk to me. No response. I pushed. He said that he could tell I was trying, and that I wasn't failing miserably. No other comments. End of conversation. Utterly useless.
In the meantime, I'm having a bit of a mid-life crisis myself. I'm weighing options and probably considering way too many. The most attractive options include running away and starting over somewhere else... sigh. Risky, but interesting. The least attractive options involve putting my head down and accepting that I am completely at the mercy of whatever comes my way. Still risky, but predictable. Well, something will break one way or the other... I'm probably going to opt for some kind of a change, and I've always had the best luck in not planning the change too carefully, so I probably won't know until the last minute. (That will drive H nuts.)
H is coming over tonight and tomorrow night and the night after. I don't know why, since I can't be reasoned with... or maybe I'm a saint this week... or maybe we're just ignoring it this week. I think we need a color code system, so I can know what counterproductive role I'm supposed to play from day to day.
I hope everyone else is well. I read more than I post, but I still check in on y'all. Take care. --z
Are you two still seeing a C occasionally? If so, how is that going? Could it be that H has been going through depression and should take something to help him get through it? He seems to be very down on himself.
Quote: The most attractive options include running away and starting over somewhere else... sigh. Risky, but interesting. The least attractive options involve putting my head down and accepting that I am completely at the mercy of whatever comes my way. Still risky, but predictable.
I know that feeling and it's getting stronger every day as limbo continues. In my sitch, once the Church pronounces itself on the annulment, the limbo will be over and the options will be clear. To that end, all options are being considered and prepared so that I'll be ready for anything. Of course, any decisions will probably made at the last minute also.
Hi, Hacker! In answer to your question about counseling, we're giving up on it. It's been pretty useless. I'm not so sure that another counselor would help either. I have a theories on why it hasn't worked. She missed a lot of things going on between us in the sessions, got a little too flustered when either of us challenged her (which was more likely than her challenging us) and gave advice we could have read just about anywhere. Although I believe this C in particular was pretty lame, my H has never respected psychologists and as far as I can tell didn't take any of her exercises for us seriously. So counseling seems to be over with, and I'm not just a little relieved not to have to spend another ruined Saturday after listening to my H carry on about my faults (the same faults every week) for an hour.
Don't get me wrong. I haven't blown off the fact that my H has problems with my behavior. I'm an argumentative person from a very loud family. I think this is normal, he does not. So I try very hard not to let him get to me and not to yell when I feel provoked and to calm myself down quickly when I do yell at him. H just doesn't think that's enough.
I think it's interesting though that I catch him often doing some of the things that he accuses me of doing. In particular he challenges everything and he raises his voice in frustration, but he denies doing both. As far as he's concerned, I'm the argumentative one who yells and he's my victim. He doesn't yell when he raises his voice, but I am "out of control." He's not arguing when he's expressing his disagreement, but I am "being argumentative." I keep trying to tell him that we're actually birds of a feather, and we're going to challenge each other for the rest of our lives, so he'd better find a way of coping with it. He's unimpressed. He just wants me to smile and be pleasant all of the time.
Oh well. After so much limbo, I'm beginning to think it's mostly all smoke and mirrors anyway...
Thanks for stopping in Hacker. I hope you're doing well, and that things get more grounded for you soon. Take care. --z
Good morning all! Things seem to go so well between us and then he springs one of these traps -- either I'm horrid or too good for him. Since I know I'm not crazy or deluded about things going well, I can only believe that on some level he's trying to keep things in a state of flux, which is very much in character for my freedom loving, keep-your-options-open husband. I've been thinking about the positive things that have been going on. 1) H agreed to do some exercises from one of my books on sexual relationships. It's slow going; and I have to prod him along, but he's at least making a half-@ssed effort. I suspect that he's only doing it so that he can say that he did it, but I'll take what I can get.
2) We are relaxing a bit about the sex issue. Just a bit, but it's still better.
3) H talks more about our future together as if it is a matter of time and inevitability. I'm still not certain what those "perfect circumstances" are that will bring us back together. My favorite theory is that it is going to happen when he gets a job and starts feeling like he can "take care of me."
4) So long as I continue to talk about us seperated, he continues to talk about us as partners. He is very intent that I take care of myself first; he clearly wants to be of more use to me than I am to him; and he clearly feels overwhelmed when he does too much. As much as it frustrates him, I really have to toe the line on balancing what I will and will not allow him to do for me, because our R suffers a setback everytime he thinks he's in too deep.
5) We are starting to work on making new friends that are "ours." We've each been accepted by each other's friends, but for reasons of geography or common interest, we really don't have anyone that we hang out with. It's not that we don't know some great people, it's just that our lives are so different. We talked it over and decided that we've been too lazy about developing friendships with people we could really spend time with. I think it's important to have other relationships to keep things from getting stale, so we're trying to meet more people through a couple of local clubs to which we belong. I have recognized that H likes for me to do a lot of the social planning and logistical communications; i.e. make the phone calls. I am seeing recently that he is really taking an interest in other people and extending invitations. This is all good.
6) I don't know if this is good or bad, but I've been putting a little pressure on about H getting a job -- no ordering, just holding him to his word. He's been procrastinating on this for nine months at least, five years at most. Now he says he has no choice but he still isn't doing it. I've always taken the attitude that he should do what he wants, but my new attitude is that he should do what he says. He tries to give me this garbage about what a loser he is for not being employed. Besides being ridiculous, I think it's a diversionary tactic... it doesn't work anymore. He knows what he has to do and he knows that he can; he just needs to do it. IMO he'll gain a lot more in security than he thinks he'll lose in freedom.
7) While I've been casting about for what I'm going to do with my life, I'm feeling a bit more confident about things. We'll see how it holds up. Because of the big budget cuts there is a chance that I'll get laid off this year... yuck... a big ego deflation. I've been trying to decide what steps (if any) I should take right now in case that happens. I know I'd rather move to a different job under my own steam, but I don't want to leave here unnecessarily, but a change might do me good. Something of a dilemna... and most of my dilemnas work out pretty well in the end.
Hope everyone is well and having a good day. Take care of yourselves. --z
Good God it's good to hear from you again Z, Wiley and I were just talking about you recently and we were wondering what you were up to. You write that you are in the same old sitch but to me, you seem to at least get along with and accept the problems you two have with eachother.
I know that this limbo land sux, believe me I agree with you on that. But at least you are still together, still trying. Maybe not what you wanted or expected but hey, life is a kick in the pants, no?
Good to see you around. Take care of yourself and I'll be in touch.
Berto
I believe that dreams are more powerful than facts,that laughter is the only cure for grief. And I believe that love is stronger than death
Gee, someone should remind me that I didn't ruin his life, because it sure sounds like it when he puts it that way. I asked him why he didn't go out and have his adventures, live off of his retirement and visit his wife from time to time, but he said we wouldn't work out that way. I said, "Okay fine, why don't you go have your adventures and forget me?" He said that I don't understand. Well no reason to argue with that.