Unlearning conflict avoidance 4

[sandi2]

Do you think the same applies for you?

[LuckyLuke]

Yes, though being a healthy adult, I should work for my food and shelter.

L

[Pathfinder2]

Luke,

I'll go a step farther and tell you my kids deserve to be treated with respect. They deserve love and happiness. They deserve to be loved unconditionally. They deserve a life filled with love happiness and purpose and a sense of worth and GREAT value! They are priceless.

[Pathfinder2]

Sandi, do you have time to check up on me?

[MrBond]

"By EE changing me, I mean that I will actively participate, be open, not block off things. Being a passive spectator will probably change nothing. I also hope that the EE group will facilitate personal change."

They will give you the tools, like any other program, BUT it will be up to you to really understand and take those things to heart AND apply them daily.

I think your big problem is that you don't have FAITH in things you can't see. You don't believe something unless you actually see it being done.

"I don't think it is necessarily clear how to live - Montaigne devoted a whole, famous book to this. We have new immigrants here in Sweden, for example, that don't know what is possible for them (go weightlifting? ride bikes? etc.) and I think something similar - horizon widening - is possible for everyone."

That's completely different than what you're going through. You're finding it hard to relate to people overall. This has nothing to do with external influences. Your biggest obstacle is yourself.

"Why not see a presumed expert on personal change, such as an IC? I don't understand your problem with this."

I didn't say I had a problem with it. I'm all for going to see experts who can help you. HOWEVER, a whole boatload of experts won't be able to help you unless you actually start changing.

Go back into your posts. You criticize, question, everything - experts, people who post to you on here, etc. Rather than just doing things that are recommended. You ask questions, you get answers, then you have more questions. Stop questioning and start doing.

"Shall I read personal change books by myself and not ask for external support?"

I never said that. But at some point you are going to have to stop reading and start doing. For example, the issue with the bedroom. We recommended going in there and sleeping with your W and stop sleeping on the floor. You didn't do it and instead came up with excuses why your W's opinion made sense and why you can't do it. This is just one example out of dozens. AND yet you come on here and say how miserable you are.

"I do things with my kids, cook, ski, hang out, used to read a lot to them, still bring them books."

That's, USED to.

"Yes, I feel isolated from them, but how do I get closer?"

By continuing to do things with them. They may be resistant to it at first because you've been out of it for awhile, but don't let that discourage you. You get easily discouraged.

"I would like to have a role model for this - ."

You don't need one. You have to start doing things that fit your situation in life and can't always emulate others.

It's YOUR life. Start taking charge of it.

[sandi2]

Yes, though being a healthy adult, I should work for my food and shelter.

Okay, I should have asked it differently. What would your children deserve if they were adults? If they were not healthy and was not able to work, what would they deserve? If they were disabled, homeless & jobless, what would they deserve?

You are looking at one's worth as if being paid for what they do. But when your children are grown, and if they don't have the future they "worked" for, then how will you feel? B/c you are right, the world doesn't owe us a dime! Life is very unfair. So does it take away a person's worth? What happens when you grow too old to work? Depend upon your savings? That still puts it in the "reward" category. Sure, every kid deserves a fair chance at life......but every kid doesn't get it. Does that lessen their worth? And if the kid grows up, does it lessen his worth as a human being?

Your worth does not depend upon the fact that you are able to work for your food and shelter. When you figure that out, maybe you will be able to wipe the fog off the mirror and see yourself. Once you do, hopefully, things will start improving.

[25yearsmlc]

Luke,

when and where are you going to be in LA? Maybe you can connect with Kaffe Diem here and he can hook us up in the alternate universe b/c I live near LA and KD knows how to reach me.

Also would love to discuss EE with you anytime. I've gone 7 times since 1989. First as a participant and then as a "Team" support person since.

Your questions are basic and valid. It's NOT too late.

I have seen senior citizens turn their "dying years" into their golden years. Seriously.

Be visible & participative when there (and then maybe in life too!!?).

No more being a spectator...

Let's connect and chat if you are up for it. Also is your real first name the "L" one?
** I don't need your real identity except first name, for EE purposes, and to protect your privacy (and mine). But it'd be good to address some of your questions more in depth.

[25yearsmlc]

LL

I also think you are looking for some sort of guarantee BEFORE doing something new or different.

I don't see why that is. I am not clear on what you fear if a given course of action does not help much. What significant damage is done by you TRYING something new?

I guess losing the little contact you have with your family is your fear but is it realistic?

ISn't your present approach slowing losing you each r? I think the apparent apathy with your son, like not even saying good night or checking in with your son b/c he didn't seem to welcome it, reeks of apathy but it's really your fear of rejection.

YOU are the parent and we ALL get rejected by our kids at times. And that's tough. Our kids are not here to be our friends, we are here to love and guide them. We don't get to quit.

And though you have had a long marriage of dissatisfaction, which you are suddenly pretending isn't true, there must have been a reason she married you...and had 2 children with you. Where is that man?


After years of sort of Doing nothing drastically different, or of decreasing involvement, you have gotten to live a life of semi depressed spectator existence, and NOT the love you seek or need.

I'm a little worried that you think EE will change you.

EE will give you TOOLS to use for you to change. It's possible to do nothing new or different after EE.


It's rare but it's possible.
Of the 25 people I've sent, 2 chose that "path" and there lives did not change appreciably. They were too afraid. Both of them. It terrified them to realize that they'd need to change something in their lives and themselves, to be happy.

But the path to change was provided. Yet there are always some who prefer the devil they know to the unknown.

So you will need to decide IF you want to be in charge of your life. I'm not sure you are.

Make no mistake, staying in a lousy situation IS a choice. And not deciding anything, IS a decision...



You have to get yourself unstuck. No one else does it for you. But yes, EE is experiential so there are exercises that teach and reveal. You cannot 'rehearse" or "edit" your replies and reactions so you will learn a lot about yourself...

CHANGE REQUIRES 2 STEPS...

THE CHOICE/COMMITMENT TO CHANGE...AND

THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THAT CHANGE...


which is usually done in steps YOU must take. Then you re-evaluate the changes and choices and either restructure the changes, modifying them

or you re-commit. I've had to re-commit to choices a lot. Law school was a commitment I had to renew b/c I did NOT Like it...

I had to commit and recommit and change and recommit, to my marriage too...

in a way the "work" of life never stops. You make a choice pretty much every day.

But it's not like we are digging ditches. --YES you know sometimes it's HARD WORK---

but it's also what is joyful too.

Did you get anything out of my story about Carol? Read it again, please...

[25yearsmlc]

Hi Mr. Bond,

By EE changing me, I mean that I will actively participate, be open, not block off things. Being a passive spectator will probably change nothing.


correction...being a passive PERSON or spectator will absolutely positively change NOTHING.

If you hear something in another person's comments, that hits a chord in you (and you WILL), it'll be up to you to learn what to do about it.


I also hope that the EE group will facilitate personal change.

^^that is the main purpose of EE, imo. FACILITATING change...

which To ME, EE helps you to learn how to live a life of clarity and intent.

I don't think it is necessarily clear how to live - Montaigne devoted a whole, famous book to this. We have new immigrants here in Sweden, for example, that don't know what is possible for them (go weightlifting? ride bikes? etc.) and I think something similar - horizon widening - is possible for everyone.

Point taken on the self esteem. Hopefully the IC won't just say pablum "you are worth it intrinsically".

at some level you will need to believe you deserve to be happy, but that it's not owed to you. You deserve it but you make it. Aristotle said "happiness is a virtue" b/c he knew it required effort.

Again, did you get anything out of the Carol Story I posted to you?


Why not see a presumed expert on personal change, such as an IC? I don't understand your problem with this. Shall I read personal change books by myself and not ask for external support?


For some, IC's are great. THey don't hurt. I have had 2 excellent ones...of maybe 6...no one made things worse for ME individually.

just got a lot more out of an intense long weekend than a weekly session could provide. I'd make a "breakthru" or have an insight and then have to switch brains and go to work or pick up the kids.

It's not that "efficient", comparatively. But I don't think it's harmful. HOWEVER in marriage counselling, it seems more than half of MCs are there, to support the departing partner. Maybe they ought to call themselves "divorce counsellors"

but otoh, many folks need to attend marriage counselling BEFORE they want to end their marriage.

Using car maintanance and repairs as an analogy, more couples, ought to attend marriage counselling or Encounter weekends for tune ups, instead of when the whole "car" breaks down and looks like it's a total loss.

(again, the Encounters are more intense than weekly counselling sessions. I think the continuity of a long weekend makes a huge difference in what you learn and what sinks in AND what you see modelled that you need to emulate)

I do things with my kids, cook, ski, hang out, used to read a lot to them, still bring them books. Yes, I feel isolated from them, but how do I get closer? I would like to have a role model for this - .

Luke

you may have to create a role model for that.

But you will learn pieces of it at EE...

connect with Kaffe Diem and we can connect on the alt universe and chat, privately about it, if you want.

[25yearsmlc]

For basic help with how to start and cultivate friendships read Dale Carnegie' s book "How to Win Friends and Influence People", it will give you some tools and therefore some confidence in social situations

YES I echo this^^^.

It's not out of date. And really, Carnegie's book and the basic "ask others about themselves" fixes a lot of it. Being genuinely interested in others is a learned skill but it enhances relationships, helps forms friendships and makes US happier too...

I think it's absolutely mandatory reading for anyone who isn't at ease in social situations....and at some point in our lives, we all were.