Unlearning conflict avoidance 4

[sandi2]

You are doubting yourself to the point of not knowing if you've ever known what it is to be a man. It could have something to do with how you've been treated by your W and your father, IDK. But after reading your last post, I'm doubting that you will ever confront your W. You have lived in fear...and loneliness......and settled for whatever was thrown at you. Maybe I've had the wrong approach. I've been suggesting things that clearly are beyond what you will make yourself do. I believe you know in your heart that you aren't going to be different than who you are right now. You always respond very kindly, b/c that's who are you are. But I've been trying to toughen you up and make you act like an alpha male. But I don't believe that's who you are.

Luke is a very kind (and probably good-hearted) man, who is smarter than he let's people know, and is more comfortable with nature than he is with people. With low self-esteem and living in a house where love is not expressed in words or affection......well, it is so very sad.

Luke, I believe you may need to just focus on the things you "can" do. Be who you want to be, instead of who I've tried to get you to be. As long as you feel good about yourself....that is what's important right now. And I believe you have lived in such a bad MR b/c you love your children and don't won't them to have D parents. But the fact is this.......you're dying a slow death a liittle bit every day. You told us things weren't that great during vacation, and the sadness in your post told more. And your kids see this, and it's teaching them some things I don't believe you want for them.

So, while in the USA and Germany, break out and do just what you want to do. It seems that your W is determined to not accept you as you are, so if you don't feel you can change, maybe you should consider letting her go. If a D does come, you may be surprised at feeling free of all the pressure, tension, and how could you be much more lonely than you are in this R? You might meet someone who is better suited for you, if you will just try to meet folks. But there I go again, trying to tell you how to be.

Please don't misunderstand what I am saying. I just want you to be happy being Luke.

[RockJC]

//Is 9+ years of no ML and very little physical affection just too much?//

Simply, Yes. You deserve better.

[25yearsmlc]

Hi sandi2, all,

W had been being nice, sharing, and it seemed like my acting confident may have had something to do with this. It seemed like continuing to be so and perhaps extending my behavior would amplify this, but I wasn't sure how, and so it felt like no improvement was happening, hence the stalled feeling. Everyone being home for Easter vacation didn't leave me room to read and plan much, though it is great to have S and D here. Cunningham's list of attractive masculine qualities can help with setting goals here.

Yesterday was not such a good day. W casually mentions that she wants to go to bank to talk loan for house renovation. I counter with our realtor friend first saying we would not get the costs back to then saying maybe we might; W replies "of course we should renovate", and that I should not expect her to come back next year to paint if I then renovate next year (so message is, again: she is leaving). I then counter with what about splitting the costs over two years (advantages: cheaper due to tax breaks for each of us, and also that it requires W to stay at least a part owner of house for full cost reduction; I think keeping her as part owner may tie her to here and so by extension me. She could still sell, not get a tax deduction next year, and want her money now. My plan is currently to go to full loanable amount (we have room to easily loan as we have paid off a lot on house), part for the first half of the renovation, and the remainder for part of her payout).

Feel like my not improving my behavior further has caused this painful relapse into "I am leaving" on her part.

How easily words can upset me! Still not detached enough. She wants to go to bank today (it is 5am Friday morning now) to ask about loan.

D is now accepted to good high school in Stockholm, an hour away by train. W, if she really moves out (and she said this factually, without passion), will presumably want to be closer to Stockholm, as it is closer to her work also, and hence it will be much easier for D to stay with her (they are very close anyway). What will I do in a large, empty, house? D is something of a lifeline for me.


Keep it alive. You CAN...

On the other hand, W, D and I drove to Stockholm yesterday, in the car, with no problem. Had a not bad time, at a plant nursery even (so she is still interested in gardening! mixed message! is she leaving, yes, no? is it just because she plans to be here for the summer and then leave anyway?) and then lunch and a museum.

Also on the other hand, we have booked tickets for the US trip, 10 days in Wyoming and Utah, together, with no having to time share the kids. W also asked if we should have a brunch for some friends next weekend. W is tough, organized.

If she will do this to me/us, I will do EE (I have still not booked flight to it, which extends my stay abnormally long this time in US, and may produce questions; must get this cleared up). W will not respect weekly group support sessions that EE continues with, viewing it as weak and an invasion of privacy.


WHOAH???

ARE You are going to Essential Experience ("EE") ? That's WONDERFUL!

And if your wife knew anything about it, she'd see how much strength it takes to get through it. OMG it's not easy work.

She's so NOT in touch or clued in with what it is about. Did she even read about it on their website? It's NOT Landmark or EST...

BTW, Is she going?

Oh, also, We have some online and phone support groups too, btw. And they are all free.

And there are many business support aspects that are mutually beneficial so it's hardly a "weak" thing to do. It's smart business and it's part of building a supportive community in our lives.

WE ALL must do that. That's what THIS online board is about. People helping others, for the sake of it.

EE is life changing, if you let it be. Your level of participation will determine what you get out of it.

The value of EE will be revealed in the changes you make.

IF you were to "chart it out", you'll see that you can make several small incremental changes, and then years later, - find yourself in a much different place than you would have been if no changes had been made.

Did you read about Essential Experience from one of my posts or from Power Of Now, or Autumn Leaves or Navyguy?

I'm thrilled you are going, and I'm hopeful. I think your confidence in how good a man you are, just as you are, will be enough for YOU to be happy, with or without your w.

What I sense in your posts is that you are attaching your future happiness to HER choices. Please do NOT do that.

That's no way to live...

Luke, even if you were happy together and not so desparately lonely and fearful...you know, she could die.

What would you do then? Surely not curl up and die. So...please

Luke, do this "exercise" for a few minutes please....just let yourself

Imagine your life without your wife...but with you being happy.

Now, what does it look like? Are you changing careers?

Where are you living? What types of hobbies are you taking up? Learning a new language or taking a class? What are your fav night time activities? Are you in a relationship with a new woman? How does SHE treat you? (Remember this exercise is for you to imagine life without your wife, but with you being happy in it...)
So are you JOINING a club or organization or team? Are you coaching or teaching or Volunteering somewhere, or playing an instrument, painting, what?

Luke, what does happiness to you, on your own, look like to you? It's crucial that you can imagine it in order for you to pursue and implement it.

So now, which of those^^^ things, can you do NOW?

What parts of it can you create for you?

Remember that your children will see what you DO and how you ACT and believe in it, far more than what words you say.

Model for them, a man willing to take charge of his own life. (That's a focal point of EE's).


(I absolutely believe you must meet new people who don't know your wife or your situations in order to become the new you.

Plus It's harder to revert to old behaviors when the new people in your life have seen the new improved you...whereas the old friends or your w, will resist believing in your changes.

When I GAL, I did it big time. Almost compulsively, but I lived in Alaska and it was in the interior and winter...you are in Sweden...maybe it's like that.

ANYHOW, back to EE...
My h is not the type of man to go to a "personal growth workshop" but we had seen my brother and his wife's marriage AND HIS OWN LIFE, improve so much after they went, that we wanted that too. And Our marriage was not in trouble at the time, btw.

So off I went on my own without h. I was glad to go by myself b/c I had a hard time with his mother. She treated me poorly for reasons unknown to me at the time. And

I knew I'd feel inhibited if H went with me, (other reasons too. Like childhood things I wasn't interested in fully sharing with him...)

So I didn't pursue his attendance at all. I went to EE ( the first time was 2 decades ago) and we figured if I thought it was worthless, we would not have spent so much. But I got a lot out of it and developed more conflict resolution skills in one long weekend, than I had in 2 years of therapy. Plus I go back every few years as a "team" member and it is always a refreshing thing to do...doing team also costs nothing but getting there.

ANYHOW, so I came home from EE way back then, and h decided a few months later that he wanted to go too. When he was there, he said it was "the best gift [he'd] ever been given."

I think sandi's advice about YOU being you and LIKING who you are,

will be advanced greatly by going to EE. And whatever needs changing, will be revealed.



I guess it boils down to detach, detach, detach, hide my pain, GAL more, follow Cunningham list, plan next steps.

Thanks for asking -

Luke

YES--hiding your pain will be easier when it's lessened. And GAL and detaching will help you do so.

I cannot imagine staying this long in such a lonely marriage. Why was that enough for you, for so long?

I guess the real question is where you go from here, "from this day forward." Let me know how it goes with EE...and your life.

[25yearsmlc]

Very good question, adinva. Being more assertive also means more responsibility and knowing what you want.

Last, at least for now, session with current IC. While she was sympathetic, I didn't find her particularly useful. Was upbeat at the session, though, EE had really pumped me up.

Have found another IC, who I will meet this Friday. I travel to the States on Monday morning, gone 4 weeks, including 5 days for EE.

I found this in my diary from 1988:

Germany. I leave school, I leave home, my wife wants to live separately, a new land, a new time.
My last "free" evening. W is reading Brodkey; she likes it very much. She's filled my thoughts so much these last few days with her wanting to move out, a painful desire for me. She talks of 4 years alone-.

One hell of a marriage, I think and am so hurt and angry and sad. She'll be my "girlfriend" - demotion from wife.

So this has been going on for 25 years!

Luke

life is short Luke...truly it is. Already so much has passed.

But you CAN live better and more happily. YOU CAN BE HAPPY Luke.

EE is about taking charge of your life & getting there.

Are you ready to learn how, and to then do that?

I think so.

[25yearsmlc]

your posts reveal a long history of a dysfunctional, very unhappy marriage. Your children know this. Trust me...they know.

Yet you cling to an image that isn't real, and ironically you deeply fear losing it. But I think it's an illusion. Has it ever occurred to you that there's not a lot to lose here?

You wrote:



So[b] what does one do with all the pain and loss and memories that occasionally surface? The thought of our family being torn asunder, no longer all living in the house here, the kids coming home, the sounds they make upstairs, their positive energy, gone, time grinding it all to nothing, this beloved house with all of its nooks and crannies, made for us, rips my heart out, knocks the breath out of me, death.

Do you hide this? Can it be transmuted? [/b]


You process the losses and treasure the memories. Even In an ideal happy marriage, children still grow up and move, and have their own families. Your son is already on his way out b/c life is growth and change (it should be).

Then their children take up their time, as do their jobs, their marriages, etc.

YOU move along in life showing them that aging is not a slow death, but A LIFE still being lived.

Luke, your posts reflect a lot of depression in you. Your marriage has been in a coma for a long time.

I don't see any risk to you changing your ways. The downside of not changing is that you will still be half alive and half...not so much.

LIfe is NOT all about loss.

You asked:

Why is life repeated losses? How on earth does one keep a PMA?

I am so humbled by and grateful for all you have given me - all of you -


So I think I'm going to re-post this from my own thread.

It's about a woman I met at EE, a few decades ago.

"Adinva, you and Val and KG reminded me of her when she/you said that pain is something you need/want to get through.& NOT avoid...


You reminded me of a great woman named Carol. Carol is the woman with the best attitude towards life of anyone I know. (& I met her at the Essential Experience workshop, btw).

The day Carol turned 16, her parents gave her a huge catered "Sweet 16" birthday party, with a band and all. Tons of people. Carol's brother was close to her and he was to drive down from college for the big party.

On the way to it, he got into a car accident and was killed. The parents were notified during the big party & Carol thought the police were there to quiet the party down.

The parents were bereft but did not know what to do. Rather than announcing the death of their only son to the party, or ending their daughter's big night, they carried on for 2 hours until the guests had left, only to finally tell Carol why her brother had not arrived....

Years passed, and Carol married a really nice guy. They had a cute little son, who got Juvenile diabetes at age 5. They said "it's a disease that is manageable...we just have to learn how to manage it and then teach him."

Then they had a baby girl. At age 3 months she got a cold that went to her lungs and she could not shake it. Damage was done to her lungs and eventually she was put on life support. She was not going to live.

The doctors said their daughter could not live long once disconnected to the machine. They withdrew life support and Carol held her baby girl in her arms. She suddenly felt the urge to nurse her baby as it "seemed like the natural thing to do". So she took off her shirt & bra, not caring who saw what. The baby nursed vigorously for awhile, then more slowly and then, quietly, and gently she passed away into the night, while in her mother's arms.

I was pregnant when I saw Carol after her d's death. I eventually shared with her that her loss terrified me. I said I felt that it would not be a survivable event for me, but for the son we also had.

I said, "I'd feel as if life was a beautiful painting and now someone threw a big glass of red wine on it and it's ruined forever."

Carol said "No my life isn't ruined. I've had pain in it.

But life is more like a tapestry. If you get close up to it you can see the flaws and the textures and there IS pain...but if you stand back and look at the whole thing, the textures and flaws add to it.

Pain is just a part of my life but my life is still very beautiful. I learned to get through the pain and I am in touch with how much love & laughter and art & music there is in my life. I feel blessed & lucky."

Carol meant every word.

I'll always recall that conversation nearly verbatim.

...thank you for reminding me of her!
_________________________

[LuckyLuke]

Hola folks,

Thank you for all your posts. Not sure where to start, so I'll just jump in here:

I stay in this marriage because my W is smart, pretty, sexy, interesting, makes a great house (garden, decorating taste, cook etc.), playful. I don't like the idea of terminating whatever little there is left. We had a good time, within limits, when we were in the US last year.

Yes, the kids know what is going on (Dad is alone downstairs in the evening, D comes down to say hello once or twice; I don't bother going up to my son's bed anymore, though perhaps this might be more conducive to beauty sleep).

Yes, I am going to EE. I am very interested in how others live their life, what do other men do (what are the rules and allowed, expected, behaviors? I am not interested in the stereotypical sports and cars stuff), what guidelines (e.g. Bakewell's summary of Montaigne's "pay attention" is useful) and perhaps role models to follow in living, what makes life worth living, how to have fun, etc.

A fundamental challenge seems to be the ability to enjoy being alone and to be satisfied with this. I have been reading escapist young adult books (up to "I capture the castle" now) to avoid dealing with adult reality for a while now - how wasteful, though, to want to escape life via fantasy instead of living.

As I see it, what is there to lose in being open with the EE folks? No, W is not going, and does not know that I am going either. She just 'knows' that I am gone longer than the usual 3 weeks of work (though this probably has not really sunk in).

I liked the EE grad I spoke with a while ago quite a bit, though hope there is humor and lightness interspersed with the presumably heavier psychological stuff. I am not scared of the work involved, as from everything I hear it is worth it.

Am very curious if EE can really change me. I would also like to help others, though I feel stupid/clumsy/inexperienced in many ways.

I think that I came across EE in a PON post and it sounded good.

Please give me a bit for the imagine a happy you exercise - will probably do this on the plane Monday.

More in a bit -

Luke

[LuckyLuke]

Yes, I feel like I am ready to learn how to live. They should teach this in school, early; isn't it the most fundamental thing for us humans?

Also, how do I know if my self esteem is high or low? What does this change?

Will see an IC in 2 hours. I expect more from this one - exercises, role playing, whatever - than just information.

There is an interesting sounding exhibition in LA, where I will be starting next week. This is a typical thing for me to do - go to a museum alone, but it feels empty. That and see the movies that don't make it to here, again alone.

It seems that either I give up on people ("not having friends can't hurt me anymore"), or find a way to meet them and make friends. How many friends is good enough? What is the norm for having a friend? Do you hear from them often? How do I know when I am doing well friend-wise?

The french ultra-marathoner with whom I ran last week wants to get together for a drum evening again. How do I develop this friendship? Is it allowed to sing during the drumming if I feel like it? I don't want to be a weird guy who doesn't fit in.

The dance teacher and I just had breakfast together (mexican, I made it) this morning and then went to get an old-fashioned single edge razor shave.

Luke

[mrtwopointfour]

Hi LL, I've not posted on your threads before so will need to do some back reading. But just read what you recently posted and can relate to this:

There is an interesting sounding exhibition in LA, where I will be starting next week. This is a typical thing for me to do - go to a museum alone, but it feels empty. That and see the movies that don't make it to here, again alone.

I think this comes from years of having a W to share exciting stories, film plots, or things you have seen in museums. I recently tried to some of these things by myself and felt quite alone when i did - yet 6 months ago would have felt quite excited about doing these things alone.

May seem odd, but how about starting a blog or something to share your thoughts and views on museums and movies etc?

[LuckyLuke]

Hola Mr. 2.4,

Thanks for the suggestions. Blogging is something I had not though of ... I am not sure my weeny engineer's take on museums/films will be so interesting... let me mull over that...


L

[mrtwopointfour]

Hola Mr. 2.4,

Thanks for the suggestions. Blogging is something I had not though of ... I am not sure my weeny engineer's take on museums/films will be so interesting... let me mull over that...


L

Oh I don't know. Surely an engineers view on the arts is going to be quite amusing and different.