DBing, European style

[Papa4Life]

Well, it seems like I've backslid again. The temptation to try to reason with W has been just too great, even though I know it is counterproductive. So, it's time to get serious about the DBing process. I still want to turn things around, and I want to start getting a lot more serious about doing the right thing. I'll start with a quote from Adinva and then 25's response and some other questions.

in order to not be a doormat you have to make your needs clear far enough in advance for her to make plans, and far enough in advance for you to adjust your request if her work schedule can't accommodate your plans.

this ^^^ is basic YET many folks forget it, or take it for granted or just get complacent. But keep it in mind and there won't be any doormat issue. From MY perspective with THIS one example, you were the one who was off base...what does "time for me" mean, when compared to a meeting she is having? She's NOT a mind reader either...

so communicate often, make YOUR needs known with clarity from your end, not what she "Should know" in your opinion. Make sense?

That's boundary stuff and it will help YOU LIVE BETTER no matter what else happens.

I made these plans in the hopes of doing what a lot of people have been telling me to do: let my W take over some of my responsibilities so that a) I can have more time to GAL and b) to let her see how much I do at home. But you're both right: next time, I'll communicate more effectively.

Here's another great quote from Advina and 25's response:

And, what you describe as giving up many others would describe as letting go, which is without exception essential to any reconciliation.
Exactly^^^ and this is what I have been saying (and I assume others as well). The paradox of DBing is that ONLY by letting go and moving forward, can WE find ourselves truly changing for OUR Reasons, becoming wives/husbands only a fool would leave.

But without expecting the WAS to return, yet knowing WE will be fine no matter what. Seeing the upside of their departure is also a good start.

I told myself last week that the time had come to truly let go and stop pursuing and stop "hoping" (by which I probably meant "pursuing"), but I was surprised by how happy W was when I made it clear that I wouldn't stand in her way anymore.

No matter how great a spouse is, there are SOME things we're not crazy about AND even if not, we like some time to ourselvse, which divorce DOES provide. It's not all hellish if we're honest about it.

Get in touch with the small things first and eventually you'll see that there are upside that are bigger too.

When I'm being honest to myself, I do realize that there are things about W that would have to change in order to remain in M. So, in that sense, I do agree that S will probably do me good.

We went to MC today and she looked me in the eye and said that this is what she wants and here's why.

any reaction to her explanation? Care to discuss it here? Does it help guide you in the changes you want to make for yourself?

Yes, she mentioned again that our communication was sorely lacking pretty much throughout our M. Plus she mentioned the arguments and my anger. She summed it all up by saying that her feelings were gone and she couldn't even imagine that they would or could ever return.

See, I had a tremendous amount of difficulty adjusting to life and culture here, and that manifested itself in a disinclination to spend too much time (or as much time as W would have preferred) with friends and family or going out much. So, as part of GAL, I've been doing much more socializing and forcing myself to interact with people, and that has been tremendous. I forgot who cool Dutch folks are.

I also would like to work on our communication, because, let's face it, when you have four kids together, you can never really D. So, today, I had a "family meeting" with the kids. It's something we used to do more often and we fell out of the habit. It's useful for practicing making agreements and settling conflicts.

so I'm continuing on with giving her everything she wants.
What does that mean?

By this I mean that I'm not going to try to talk her out of a D. I also had been discussing with MC the idea that I might stay in the house, since I take on a much greater portion of the childcare during the week. But FA made it clear that, even with palimony, I wouldn't be able to take over the mortgage because I haven't been employed (with an employment contract) for at least three years. So, I'll probably be signing up with a "housing corporation" that specializes in new divorcees and I might get a subsidy from the government. Ideally I'll find something here in the area to remain close to the kids.

She also got angry with the kids a few times today, but I couldn't be bothered playing the mediator the way I would have in the past. It's actually quite liberating to realize that I don't have to take responsibility for her feelings anymore. Focussing on myself has been really liberating, and that has been unexpected.

This is the first gift of the change being forced upon you. The others are up to you. MEANING, do you want to keep changing to become a better man, or will you decide since you may have lost your wife anyhow, why bother? IOW, what is your motivation for change, now?

I know that there are numerous things that I'm going to have to work on either way, and I am highly committed to making those changes and making them a permanent part of an improved me. I've got a few ideas for courses, seminars, and so on that I'd like to attend, so that will be the next step: i.e. acquiring the tools that I'll need to live a happy, productive life here.

I would say that I might have what some people might call [b]Aspergers-like symptoms, but it's not that simple.


My little brother has Asperger's syndrome. No one said it's simple at all.

No offense intended, 25. My godson is autistic and I would never dare imply that dealing with his issues was "simple" for my sis and BIL. What I meant to say was that I don't think that my issues (or anyone else's, come to think of it) are so easy to quantify that they can all be attributed to one blanket label. And besides, isn't high intelligence an aspect of Asperger's? Well, that rules me out because, lord knows, I'm not the sharpest pencil in any drawer.

If anything I feel things to deeply.

maybe...or maybe you are not picking up on other's feelings so you assume they are absent. THAT inability to know they are hurt or angry or feeling neglected, is a trait of Asperger's...

No, I am actually quite perceptive about people's feelings.

I'm very easily wounded, and this situation feels like W and other people are really twisting the knife.

what other people? Us? Your friends or co workers? Who? How is that shown?

It just hurts that the only time W talks to me freely is when she wants to talk about D. As I mentioned earlier, communication has been an issue in our M and it hurts to see that now, when I am trying to be receptive to communicating with her, she wants no part of it. She does, however, say that I'm still incommunicative, when she never responds to anything I say. I was also referring to my BIL who spent all night last night at a cafe trying to tell me not to hope for a reconciliation with W, even though I repeatedly tried to change the subject.

...Whoops, W is downstairs dealing with kids and having a bit of a tantrum. Again, this is the time when I would usually go and play the mediator, but I don't feel any responsibility to help her. Maybe I AM starting to detach.

All I can ask is that, unlike W, that the people on this board not give up on me.

We won't. I'm surprised you would worry about that -considering how many post to YOU AND what Sandi and Bond said...who said WE would leave?? You were the one "Signing out", not us.

That whole "signing out" thing was misunderstood. It was a combination of closing my post and indicating that my misguided efforts to pursue or "win back" my wife had reached an end.

but one whose initial response is always to fight to protect himself.

I suggest you work to change that. It's usually abrasive and confrontational and NOT fun to be around. Just b/c you feel the need to protect, does not mean it's working in your life.

There are smarter healthier ways to protect yourself, like by bringing in MORE love and friendship into your life, not less...

AbsoLUTEly, 25! And that has what I'm working on. It's hard at times, it's true, like an aircraft carrier trying to do a U-turn. But the EMDR has helped a lot, and I'm much more aware of the physical indications of stress and I'm becoming more skilled in defusing that stress before I lose my temper. And I'm getting better at letting love and friendship in.

But that doesn't mean that I am a lost cause. At least I hope not. So please, don't give up on me, because try as I might, I can't give up my hope of turning things around with my beloved W.

NO ONE HERE is giving up on you. I doubt your wife is either. She may believe she must give up on the marriage, but she's still in your life. I am a little confused by your comment that she's really twisting the knife.

I've got to stop with all the stupid metaphors... And in fact, yes, this horrible victim mentality I now see that I have in many cases. I don't want to blame anybody for my emotions or my situation. That's going to be another goal I want to work on. I'll journal about this later.

She sounded a bit concerned, brought you tissue and SHE cried too...so where is the knife? It is a crappy situation that hurts. But I don't think there is a way to do this without a lot of pain. I think some make it WORSE but in your case I just see a woman who BELIVES she is done.

What am I missing? you know, she has things to learn too. You cannot teach her those things (except that your changes are permanent and real) but she has things to discover only life on her own will....I think you are releasing her to her task and that's all you can do... kicking or screaming or graciously accepting that she wants out.

Thing is, just b/c a person says they feel a certain way, does NOT make it true.
And even when it is true, it does NOT make it permanent. If you'd seen my journals from 6 years ago, you'd have seen me giving up.

Thanks, as always, for your wonderful feedback 25. I'll keep this in mind. I DO want to "release her to her task", beautifully said. That should be an oft-quoted 25-ism, right up there with "be the spouse only a fool would want to leave".

Okay. Okay! I think my head is screwed on straight again. I've made my decision, time to live with it!