DBing, European style

[adinva]

Regarding 4:15 and 5 pm, in order to not be a doormat you have to make your needs clear far enough in advance for her to make plans, and far enough in advance for you to adjust your request if her work schedule can't accommodate your plans.

Good try, just do it with more notice and clarity next time.

And, what you describe as giving up many others would describe as letting go, which is without exception essential to any reconciliation.

[Papa4Life]

Wow, Advina. Thanks! I dearly appreciate your feedabk. Yes, I think I am at the point now where I can simply let go. It's been so hard until now, and I do think that I was fooling myself into believing that what I have been doing was letting go and detaching. But I'm at the point now where I feel that it is time to *truly* focus on myself and becoming the best me that I can be. So thank you for the reminder.

[Papa4Life]

Journaling:

Feeling pretty positive today. Maybe it's a bit of a jujitsu maneuver but I've just given myself over to what W wants. We went to MC today and she looked me in the eye and said that this is what she wants and here's why. And then this afternoon we had a meeting with our financial afvisor and her face lit up at the idea of separate residences, so I'm continuing on with giving her everything she wants. She also got angry with the kids a few times today, but I couldn't be bothered playing the mediator the way I would have in the past. It's actually quite liberating to realize that I don't have to take responsibility for her feelings anymore. Focussing on myself has been really liberating, and that has been unexpected.

Look, I know I can come across as a bit of an a-hole, and I know I put a lot of people off. I would say that I might have what some people might call Aspergers-like symptoms, but it's not that simple. If anything I feel things to deeply. I'm very easily wounded, and this situation feels like W and other people are really twisting the knife. All I can ask is that, unlike W, that the people on this board not give up on me. I take your advice to heart, and I love you guys for your support. If you knew me in RL, you would know that I'm a sensitive guy, but one whose initial response is always to fight to protect himself. But that doesn't mean that I am a lost cause. At least I hope not. So please, don't give up on me, because try as I might, I can't give up my hope of turning things around with my beloved W.

I wish all of you, every one, a happy, peaceful tomorrow.

[makingmagic]

I'm here... ((HUGS))

[25yearsmlc]

First, let me re-cap a great post you got and MUST take in...and process...
From Adinva


Regarding 4:15 and 5 pm, in order to not be a doormat you have to make your needs clear far enough in advance for her to make plans, and far enough in advance for you to adjust your request if her work schedule can't accommodate your plans.


this ^^^ is basic YET many folks forget it, or take it for granted or just get complacent. But keep it in mind and there won't be any doormat issue. From MY perspective with THIS one example, you were the one who was off base...what does "time for me" mean, when compared to a meeting she is having? She's NOT a mind reader either...

so communicate often, make YOUR needs known with clarity from your end, not what she "Should know" in your opinion. Make sense?



That's boundary stuff and it will help YOU LIVE BETTER no matter what else happens.

And, what you describe as giving up many others would describe as letting go, which is without exception essential to any reconciliation.
_______________________

Exactly^^^ and this is what I have been saying (and I assume others as well). The paradox of DBing is that ONLY by letting go and moving forward, can WE find ourselves truly changing for OUR Reasons, becoming wives/husbands only a fool would leave.

But without expecting the WAS to return, yet knowing WE will be fine no matter what. Seeing the upside of their departure is also a good start.

No matter how great a spouse is, there are SOME things we're not crazy about AND even if not, we like some time to ourselvse, which divorce DOES provide. It's not all hellish if we're honest about it.

Get in touch with the small things first and eventually you'll see that there are upside that are bigger too.

I say this even while married. But I like chick flicks sometimes, and I don't always wants a four course dinner, and I can't stand the toilet seat left up.

So, those were the first things I noticed that I preferred about h being gone. NO they did not outweigh my desire FOR Him

but every little bit helps...



[quote=Papa4Life]Journaling:

Feeling pretty positive today. Maybe it's a bit of a jujitsu maneuver but I've just given myself over to what W wants. We went to MC today and she looked me in the eye and said that this is what she wants and here's why.


any reaction to her explanation? Care to discuss it here? Does it help guide you in the changes you want to make for yourself?


And then this afternoon we had a meeting with our financial afvisor and her face lit up at the idea of separate residences, so I'm continuing on with giving her everything she wants.

What does that mean?

Not sure what the laws are there, but what CHOICE do you really have? I mean, here in the USA, the states grant divorces and most property settlements use a formula. Unless a child with special needs is involved or you live in a fault state (unusual but a few remain)

or some property is confusing, it's a bit cut and dried. To ME it's too cut and dried.

But my point is, you are acting as if you are "granting" her something to which she is not entitled anyhow. What are you "giving"her that she would not get anyhow AND WHY?

if it's stuff she'd get anyhow, don't crow about it.

If it's not stuff she's entitled to, then are you being a doormat?

If so, why?


She also got angry with the kids a few times today, but I couldn't be bothered playing the mediator the way I would have in the past. It's actually quite liberating to realize that I don't have to take responsibility for her feelings anymore. Focussing on myself has been really liberating, and that has been unexpected.

This is the first gift of the change being forced upon you. The others are up to you. MEANING, do you want to keep changing to become a better man,

or will you decide since you may have lost your wife anyhow, why bother?

IOW, what is your motivation for change, now?

Look, I know I can come across as a bit of an a-hole, and I know I put a lot of people off. I would say that I might have what some people might call Aspergers-like symptoms, but it's not that simple.


My little brother has Asperger's syndrome. No one said it's simple at all.

How does it manifest in your life? Be as forthright as you can be.

Is the reason you glossed over the reasons your wife listed for divorcing you, ..b/c you think it's not fixable AND OR that it's a terrible character flaw?

it is treatable. I never thought my brother would make it 4 years in the military but he did. I never thought he'd marry but he did, and a great woman at that. They have a daughter and he's an attentive proud father. He holds his job down and it's involving other people, not solo work.

He's forced to interact and work on his social skills and he has lots of siblings for feedback. Most of us give constructive feedback b/c he really needs it. When he heeds it, his life is better.

It DOES TAKE WORK and attention however, or he'll hurt and offend many people and not necessarily know it. And then he'll be alone, and he gets very self loathing when that happens. And that's not good.



If anything I feel things to deeply.

maybe...or maybe you are not picking up on other's feelings so you assume they are absent. THAT inability to know they are hurt or angry or feeling neglected, is a trait of Asperger's...


I'm very easily wounded, and this situation feels like W and other people are really twisting the knife.

what other people? Us? Your friends or co workers? Who? How is that shown?

All I can ask is that, unlike W, that the people on this board not give up on me.


We won't. I'm surprised you would worry about that -considering how many post to YOU AND what Sandi and Bond said...who said WE would leave?? You were the one "Signing out", not us.

I take your advice to heart, and I love you guys for your support. If you knew me in RL, you would know that I'm a sensitive guy, but one whose initial response is always to fight to protect himself.

I suggest you work to change that. It's usually abrasive and confrontational and NOT fun to be around. Just b/c you feel the need to protect, does not mean it's working in your life.

There are smarter healthier ways to protect yourself, like by bringing in MORE love and friendship into your life, not less...

But that doesn't mean that I am a lost cause. At least I hope not. So please, don't give up on me, because try as I might, I can't give up my hope of turning things around with my beloved W.

NO ONE HERE is giving up on you. I doubt your wife is either. She may believe she must give up on the marriage, but she's still in your life. I am a little confused by your comment that she's really twisting the knife.

She sounded a bit concerned, brought you tissue and SHE cried too...so where is the knife? It is a crappy situation that hurts.

But I don't think there is a way to do this without a lot of pain. I think some make it WORSE but in your case I just see a woman who BELIVES she is done.

What am I missing?

you know, she has things to learn too. You cannot teach her those things (except that your changes are permanent and real)

but she has things to discover only life on her own will....I think you are releasing her to her task and that's all you can do...

kicking or screaming or graciously accepting that she wants out.

Thing is, just b/c a person says they feel a certain way, does NOT make it true.

And even when it is true, it does NOT make it permanent.

If you'd seen my journals from 6 years ago, you'd have seen me giving up.

[Papa4Life]

Well, it seems like I've backslid again. The temptation to try to reason with W has been just too great, even though I know it is counterproductive. So, it's time to get serious about the DBing process. I still want to turn things around, and I want to start getting a lot more serious about doing the right thing. I'll start with a quote from Adinva and then 25's response and some other questions.

in order to not be a doormat you have to make your needs clear far enough in advance for her to make plans, and far enough in advance for you to adjust your request if her work schedule can't accommodate your plans.

this ^^^ is basic YET many folks forget it, or take it for granted or just get complacent. But keep it in mind and there won't be any doormat issue. From MY perspective with THIS one example, you were the one who was off base...what does "time for me" mean, when compared to a meeting she is having? She's NOT a mind reader either...

so communicate often, make YOUR needs known with clarity from your end, not what she "Should know" in your opinion. Make sense?

That's boundary stuff and it will help YOU LIVE BETTER no matter what else happens.

I made these plans in the hopes of doing what a lot of people have been telling me to do: let my W take over some of my responsibilities so that a) I can have more time to GAL and b) to let her see how much I do at home. But you're both right: next time, I'll communicate more effectively.

Here's another great quote from Advina and 25's response:

And, what you describe as giving up many others would describe as letting go, which is without exception essential to any reconciliation.
Exactly^^^ and this is what I have been saying (and I assume others as well). The paradox of DBing is that ONLY by letting go and moving forward, can WE find ourselves truly changing for OUR Reasons, becoming wives/husbands only a fool would leave.

But without expecting the WAS to return, yet knowing WE will be fine no matter what. Seeing the upside of their departure is also a good start.

I told myself last week that the time had come to truly let go and stop pursuing and stop "hoping" (by which I probably meant "pursuing"), but I was surprised by how happy W was when I made it clear that I wouldn't stand in her way anymore.

No matter how great a spouse is, there are SOME things we're not crazy about AND even if not, we like some time to ourselvse, which divorce DOES provide. It's not all hellish if we're honest about it.

Get in touch with the small things first and eventually you'll see that there are upside that are bigger too.

When I'm being honest to myself, I do realize that there are things about W that would have to change in order to remain in M. So, in that sense, I do agree that S will probably do me good.

We went to MC today and she looked me in the eye and said that this is what she wants and here's why.

any reaction to her explanation? Care to discuss it here? Does it help guide you in the changes you want to make for yourself?

Yes, she mentioned again that our communication was sorely lacking pretty much throughout our M. Plus she mentioned the arguments and my anger. She summed it all up by saying that her feelings were gone and she couldn't even imagine that they would or could ever return.

See, I had a tremendous amount of difficulty adjusting to life and culture here, and that manifested itself in a disinclination to spend too much time (or as much time as W would have preferred) with friends and family or going out much. So, as part of GAL, I've been doing much more socializing and forcing myself to interact with people, and that has been tremendous. I forgot who cool Dutch folks are.

I also would like to work on our communication, because, let's face it, when you have four kids together, you can never really D. So, today, I had a "family meeting" with the kids. It's something we used to do more often and we fell out of the habit. It's useful for practicing making agreements and settling conflicts.

so I'm continuing on with giving her everything she wants.
What does that mean?

By this I mean that I'm not going to try to talk her out of a D. I also had been discussing with MC the idea that I might stay in the house, since I take on a much greater portion of the childcare during the week. But FA made it clear that, even with palimony, I wouldn't be able to take over the mortgage because I haven't been employed (with an employment contract) for at least three years. So, I'll probably be signing up with a "housing corporation" that specializes in new divorcees and I might get a subsidy from the government. Ideally I'll find something here in the area to remain close to the kids.

She also got angry with the kids a few times today, but I couldn't be bothered playing the mediator the way I would have in the past. It's actually quite liberating to realize that I don't have to take responsibility for her feelings anymore. Focussing on myself has been really liberating, and that has been unexpected.

This is the first gift of the change being forced upon you. The others are up to you. MEANING, do you want to keep changing to become a better man, or will you decide since you may have lost your wife anyhow, why bother? IOW, what is your motivation for change, now?

I know that there are numerous things that I'm going to have to work on either way, and I am highly committed to making those changes and making them a permanent part of an improved me. I've got a few ideas for courses, seminars, and so on that I'd like to attend, so that will be the next step: i.e. acquiring the tools that I'll need to live a happy, productive life here.

I would say that I might have what some people might call [b]Aspergers-like symptoms, but it's not that simple.


My little brother has Asperger's syndrome. No one said it's simple at all.

No offense intended, 25. My godson is autistic and I would never dare imply that dealing with his issues was "simple" for my sis and BIL. What I meant to say was that I don't think that my issues (or anyone else's, come to think of it) are so easy to quantify that they can all be attributed to one blanket label. And besides, isn't high intelligence an aspect of Asperger's? Well, that rules me out because, lord knows, I'm not the sharpest pencil in any drawer.

If anything I feel things to deeply.

maybe...or maybe you are not picking up on other's feelings so you assume they are absent. THAT inability to know they are hurt or angry or feeling neglected, is a trait of Asperger's...

No, I am actually quite perceptive about people's feelings.

I'm very easily wounded, and this situation feels like W and other people are really twisting the knife.

what other people? Us? Your friends or co workers? Who? How is that shown?

It just hurts that the only time W talks to me freely is when she wants to talk about D. As I mentioned earlier, communication has been an issue in our M and it hurts to see that now, when I am trying to be receptive to communicating with her, she wants no part of it. She does, however, say that I'm still incommunicative, when she never responds to anything I say. I was also referring to my BIL who spent all night last night at a cafe trying to tell me not to hope for a reconciliation with W, even though I repeatedly tried to change the subject.

...Whoops, W is downstairs dealing with kids and having a bit of a tantrum. Again, this is the time when I would usually go and play the mediator, but I don't feel any responsibility to help her. Maybe I AM starting to detach.

All I can ask is that, unlike W, that the people on this board not give up on me.

We won't. I'm surprised you would worry about that -considering how many post to YOU AND what Sandi and Bond said...who said WE would leave?? You were the one "Signing out", not us.

That whole "signing out" thing was misunderstood. It was a combination of closing my post and indicating that my misguided efforts to pursue or "win back" my wife had reached an end.

but one whose initial response is always to fight to protect himself.

I suggest you work to change that. It's usually abrasive and confrontational and NOT fun to be around. Just b/c you feel the need to protect, does not mean it's working in your life.

There are smarter healthier ways to protect yourself, like by bringing in MORE love and friendship into your life, not less...

AbsoLUTEly, 25! And that has what I'm working on. It's hard at times, it's true, like an aircraft carrier trying to do a U-turn. But the EMDR has helped a lot, and I'm much more aware of the physical indications of stress and I'm becoming more skilled in defusing that stress before I lose my temper. And I'm getting better at letting love and friendship in.

But that doesn't mean that I am a lost cause. At least I hope not. So please, don't give up on me, because try as I might, I can't give up my hope of turning things around with my beloved W.

NO ONE HERE is giving up on you. I doubt your wife is either. She may believe she must give up on the marriage, but she's still in your life. I am a little confused by your comment that she's really twisting the knife.

I've got to stop with all the stupid metaphors... And in fact, yes, this horrible victim mentality I now see that I have in many cases. I don't want to blame anybody for my emotions or my situation. That's going to be another goal I want to work on. I'll journal about this later.

She sounded a bit concerned, brought you tissue and SHE cried too...so where is the knife? It is a crappy situation that hurts. But I don't think there is a way to do this without a lot of pain. I think some make it WORSE but in your case I just see a woman who BELIVES she is done.

What am I missing? you know, she has things to learn too. You cannot teach her those things (except that your changes are permanent and real) but she has things to discover only life on her own will....I think you are releasing her to her task and that's all you can do... kicking or screaming or graciously accepting that she wants out.

Thing is, just b/c a person says they feel a certain way, does NOT make it true.
And even when it is true, it does NOT make it permanent. If you'd seen my journals from 6 years ago, you'd have seen me giving up.

Thanks, as always, for your wonderful feedback 25. I'll keep this in mind. I DO want to "release her to her task", beautifully said. That should be an oft-quoted 25-ism, right up there with "be the spouse only a fool would want to leave".

Okay. Okay! I think my head is screwed on straight again. I've made my decision, time to live with it!

[Papa4Life]

Thanks W4M. I appreciate it.

[Papa4Life]

Is it possibly my W could be going through an MLC?

[makingmagic]

Hey P4L.. why does friday cause you anxiety?

[Papa4Life]

Well... See, my mom has been married three times. And she seems to be drawn to alcoholics -- partiers, or perhaps the co-dependence aspect of that. I suppose when payday rolled around, the guys would want to let loose, they'd come home drunk, and let the party begin.

So maybe that colors my...distaste...for Fridays. But, in my own sitch, W is home with the twin Ds on Friday while I work in my home office, so there's more trepidation about how our interactions will go. Bur, it also seems like she makes plans with her friend who she's known since grade school on Friday, and perhaps she gets validation and then comes home to let me know, "I've decided I don't want to make an emotional commitment to this R anymore" and so on. Plus, having her around used to seem to lead to an "emotional ambush" in me, and I would backslide from my DB progress.

How 'bout you? What specifically worries you about Sundays?