Suckerpunch down to the wire

[25yearsmlc]

This is something I completely understand. My lawyer seems to have a different take on it, but perhaps that is just mumbo jumbo at this point.

With that said, the business is an LLC. What point of an LLC is there, if not to protect it from personal liability? I am not attorney by any means, but that is kind of hard for me to understand. For instance, let's say the judge decides to give half of my portion of the business to W. so now W has 7.5% ownership of the business. How is a value placed on that?

if a person falls down the stairs at your property {LLC) then they cannot hold you PERSONALLY liable for the injury. They can get the desk and chair, but not your home (in normal LLCs, the home is kept separately...I would not have put my home in our corporation. H is an MD so we put as few assets into our corporation as possible...

Normally, LLCs and corporations are to protect you from personal liability,
It's not really a divorce protection strategy but it sure is interesting you see it as one.

I posted on your older thread but I'll say the rest here.

Who cares if YOU THINK it's selfish of her to want a return on her investment? The court could not care less what your opinion is of that financial argument, b/c it's financial...not emotional or based on your take on things.

Apparently you believe She "donated" that money for your family's business, so you could mistreat her and force her to leave the marital home?

B/C THAT'S ^^^HOW SHE SEES It and to me, it seems reasonable. Wrap your brain around this.

I wonder, now that money is an issue for you

you seem to have amnesia about how you got here.

If you want to blame someone for ending the family, look in the mirror and stop putting this on her.

IMO, when you are honest, which you aren't at the moment, here's the answer....to the question about what you'd do for your d...

IF YOUR D married a man who treated her like you treated your w, I think

you'd have helped her leave a lot sooner.

[25yearsmlc]

You asked,

"How is a value placed on a business?"

You hire a forensic accountant to determine the worth, including business reputaion and "good will", future earnings, etc.

It gets hard to do with medical practices, & law practices b/c of reputation evidence, and family businesses are hard too. I'd never mix them again, fyi.

Forensic accountants are not cheap but they have value. And if I were you I'd at least consult one. So should she...

[25yearsmlc]

I'm posting something I posted to you before...but maybe it needs re-reading...
Take it in, SP....really. You were a critical partner. Even now when you talk about her, it's usually with contempt. You think her self esteem didn't take a battering after all those comments and remarks and fights? I really do...

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.

When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time. And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_________________

[swoop]

Normally, LLCs and corporations are to protect you from personal liability,
It's not really a divorce protection strategy but it sure is interesting you see it as one.

I don't see it as a divorce protection strategy. I am not concerned as much with the home, because like I said before, we don't actually own it. There is no title on the dwelling. It is not permitted through the city as a single family home. It is permitted as a managers dwelling on a commercial property. It has no mortgage loan, no legal agreement, nothing. It is in fact, property of the business.

More than the house, I am concerned with the shares in the business. I do not understand all of the ins and outs of legal matters, nor all of the protection an LLC would provide me personally in this situation. However, that is my biggest concern. The house is secondary.

I posted on your older thread but I'll say the rest here.

Who cares if YOU THINK it's selfish of her to want a return on her investment? The court could not care less what your opinion is of that financial argument, b/c it's financial...not emotional or based on your take on things.

The home itself shows in insurance figures to be worth roughly what is owed. As a secondary insight, I had a real estate developer/agent come through and assess the house. He figures it is worth roughly what is owed, or slightly less if it were brought up to "like new condition" and sold in the market. Therefore, why should wife get this huge return on her investment? It makes no sense. I understand her reasoning....and that is simply that she wants to start a new life and that new life will cost money. Therefore, she needs money. That reasoning doesn't make financial sense to me, or even ethical or moral sense for that matter. I honestly don't see how a judge would see it any other way. Why on earth do "we", meaning myself as well as the business and my family, deserve to take a financial hit while wife is the only one who benefits? That doesn't seem fair, does it?

Apparently you believe She "donated" that money for your family's business, so you could mistreat her and force her to leave the marital home?

B/C THAT'S ^^^HOW SHE SEES It and to me, it seems reasonable. Wrap your brain around this.

I wonder, now that money is an issue for you

you seem to have amnesia about how you got here.

If you want to blame someone for ending the family, look in the mirror and stop putting this on her.

You make a good point. First of all, I don't feel she donated "her" money to the family business. I feel she invested into it, just like we all did. unfortunately, there are no gurantees and the real estate market just hasn't been on a steady upswing over the last 6 years. Thank God we are almost flush and the whole thing is not completely upside down. There are a LOT of properties that are in THAT position right now.

As far as me mistreating wife and forcing her out of the family home, I am going have to disagree. Like we all know, marriage is a two way street. Now, I have been the only one trying to save this marriage, but wife has an equal amount accountability in the demise of the relationship. Plus, I did not force her out of the family home. One day, she simply decided she no longer wanted to live in the house, had a girlfriend show up and packed up her clothes and moved into our apartment full time. Prior to that, we were sharing times with our house while the other stayed elsewhere for D benefit. The day she left was the last day she "invested" into anything. The business and I have been carrying the weight of all the housing expenses for roughly 6 months. Wife hasn't paid a dime, and she feels that she doesn't have to. Prior to the separation, W and I were mutal partners in our marriage. We split EVERYTHING. Now that she is in the position where she no longer wants to be a part of the marriage, all financial obligations regarding housing should fall on me? So let me ask you, how is THAT FAIR?

IMO, when you are honest, which you aren't at the moment, here's the answer....to the question about what you'd do for your d...

IF YOUR D married a man who treated her like you treated your w, I think

you'd have helped her leave a lot sooner.

I honestly, sincerely disagree. The reason I say that is because I also would have seen the way my daughter was treating that man. I would obviously take her side, but I would believe she should hold her fair share of accountability

[swoop]

I'm posting something I posted to you before...but maybe it needs re-reading...
Take it in, SP....really. You were a critical partner. Even now when you talk about her, it's usually with contempt. You think her self esteem didn't take a battering after all those comments and remarks and fights? I really do...

I really do too. I know I was a critical partner. I know I didn't do things right. I know I need a lot more work... I am trying. I will still try, but time on this relationship is running out I feel. I refuse to take a huge financial hit, on top of my emotional hit, because I made a decision to be a more understanding and compasionate husband to a woman that left me anyway. As a business owner, you should agree that this would not be a smart move. I have MY FUTURE to worry about now. Wife is deciding to remove herself from that equation, so I am only going to look out for my own benefit, as well as my daughters.

The unfortunate situation is, W texted me the other day. We were going back and forth about how to split up our assets. Some of the things she said made sense to me, others didn't. That is regardless, the one point she made, and one that she hasn't waivered on once since BD, is that she isn't going to ever come back. There will be no second chance, no time to see how things progress among us, no nothing. She is DONE and moving forward with her life. She has even started dating to see what is out there. Her mother told me that she is encouraging W to date even more. She has already seen a few guys, but apparently nothing has sparked for her as of yet. The point being, she IS MOVING ON.

Here are a few of her words, and her same basic stance she has taken since BD:

"You know what is so sad, (husband). I have no want to come back to you. I haven't even missed you. I have missed (Daughter) terribly, and I miss having a nice home to entertain in. I am sorry that hurts you but I am not coming back."

[swoop]

AS, MrCas, Drew, LAbug,

Thank you for all of your words. It has helped me to understand a little better about the role I am playing here, both in regards to the divorce as well as in regards to being a husband to my Wife.

Your input is always much appreciated

[adinva]

How many of us have heard "I am not coming back, I am done." It is what almost all of them say. I'm not saying that isn't very likely going to end up being true, because the odds for none of us are good, it just means that nothing was different for you before she said that or after; it is just what people say when they are trying to make you understand they are done. It doesn't predict the future. Change is possible.

Re the LLC. I think you're looking at it as something protected from outsiders. Your W is an insider. Your share of your business is an asset and up until your marriage failed was equally her asset unless you had an agreement of some kind keeping her separate from that particular asset. But in most marriages assets get split 50/50. Therefore your part of the LLC is worth something and half of that value is hers. If you can't sell your share and split the proceeds then you will most likely be told to come up with the monetary equivalent; then you keep your full share and have 100% of that asset but less of something else ie money. We're not your lawyers nor your financial advisors, and we're not just trying to beat you down so you accept less than you're entitled to. We're just trying to open your eyes so when her lawyer fights for her half of a marital asset you're not blindsided.

[SemperFi00]

SP, have tried to catch up on your sitch over past couple of days. Seems like you have come a ways but still have some things to sort through. Keep up the work - in the long run it will benefit you regardless of the out come.

Anyone have any idea/experience with how inherited $$$ is treated? In my sitch, W step mom has passed away and will is currently in probate.

SP - hope that you don't mind a quick diversion to get me pointed in the right direction......

[AnotherStander]

Re the LLC. I think you're looking at it as something protected from outsiders. Your W is an insider. Your share of your business is an asset and up until your marriage failed was equally her asset unless you had an agreement of some kind keeping her separate from that particular asset. But in most marriages assets get split 50/50. Therefore your part of the LLC is worth something and half of that value is hers. If you can't sell your share and split the proceeds then you will most likely be told to come up with the monetary equivalent; then you keep your full share and have 100% of that asset but less of something else ie money. We're not your lawyers nor your financial advisors, and we're not just trying to beat you down so you accept less than you're entitled to. We're just trying to open your eyes so when her lawyer fights for her half of a marital asset you're not blindsided.

^^^Yes, thank you, that is exactly what I was trying to say, but I think you said it in easier-to-understand terms

As a secondary insight, I had a real estate developer/agent come through and assess the house. He figures it is worth roughly what is owed

I thought you said it was wholly owned by the LLC? The loan is a business loan, not home loan, correct? The value of the LLC needs to be assessed, then the debt subtracted from that to determine actual value. Just to throw some numbers out, let's say the home is worth 50k and the business loan is 40k. The LLC value may be 400k without the house, so 450k with, or 410k once the business loan amount is removed. If the court deems your W is entitled to half of your 15% share, then she'd be awarded 33,750.00. Typically a court is sensitive to the fact that a divorcing couple is not going to want to split a company, so they'll call for a monetary judgment. IE, instead of giving her half of your share of the LLC, they'll award her a cash settlement.

Therefore, why should wife get this huge return on her investment? It makes no sense.

Whatever she "invested" is immaterial. In the above example her 33,750.00 settlement is based purely on what 7.5% of the LLC is worth. You are "buying out" her portion, you're giving her cash in exchange for taking over her 7.5% of the LLC. She may have invested 100k or 1k, doesn't matter to the court.

Therefore, she needs money. That reasoning doesn't make financial sense to me, or even ethical or moral sense for that matter. I honestly don't see how a judge would see it any other way.

Look at my W and me. We bought a house together 14 years ago. I paid every single house payment. I paid the house off a little over a year ago. So it's MY house right? I mean, my W left me, why does she deserve any part of MY house? Except it's not my house, it's our house. We each contributed to the household in various ways like all married couples do. Now she wants out. Now if I told you that my W doesn't DESERVE a part of MY house, what would you tell me? It's the same with your sitch, except the house is part of the LLC and it's her stake in the LLC we're talking about.

Why on earth do "we", meaning myself as well as the business and my family, deserve to take a financial hit while wife is the only one who benefits?

You are buying out your W's portion of the LLC. It's just between you and your W, there's no financial hit to the business or the family. And while you're out some cash, you get her share of the LLC in return.

First of all, I don't feel she donated "her" money to the family business. I feel she invested into it, just like we all did. unfortunately, there are no gurantees and the real estate market just hasn't been on a steady upswing over the last 6 years.

I don't know what your business is, but from what I've read it sounds like the "real estate" holdings are just the grounds of the business, not the business itself. In the case of my company, the only tangible assets are some computers and office furniture of very little value. The real value of the company is in the reputation and potential work, and the way it's valued is by looking at its profit history to determine value. I would imagine it to be the same for your business. The real estate market only impacts the value of the tangible assets.

but wife has an equal amount accountability in the demise of the relationship.

OK, so equal. That's 50-50. So why do you think she's not entitled to 50% of the marital assets? That is what a judge will want to know. After all, you did also say this:

Prior to the separation, W and I were mutal partners in our marriage. We split EVERYTHING.

[25yearsmlc]

I'm posting something I posted to you before...but maybe it needs re-reading...
Take it in, SP....really. You were a critical partner. Even now when you talk about her, it's usually with contempt. You think her self esteem didn't take a battering after all those comments and remarks and fights? I really do...

I really do too. I know I was a critical partner. I know I didn't do things right. I know I need a lot more work... I am trying. I will still try, but time on this relationship is running out I feel.

sooo, may as well quit now? I mean, if you don't get "repaid" by her return to you, then what's the point of learning to be kind?

B/c really, that's what the main lesson was, wasn't it? Being a critical partner is another way of saying "you were mean" or you bullied, etc. Honestly, I saw some brave effort on your end to get to the truth of the matter

but in essence, it was almost all about you mistreating her. That was the MAIN problem and she told you that, more than once. But you didn't work on it at all, until she left. Those are facts.



I refuse to take a huge financial hit, on top of my emotional hit, because I made a decision to be a more understanding and compasionate husband to a woman that left me anyway.

WHAT?? That^^^ makes no sense. Stop the victim role b/c it does not work here and YOU are NOT a victim.

You are not taking a hit BECAUSE you made improvements & changes...

if this marriage does not get turned around, it's NOT BECAUSE of the changes you made, and her not taking you back.

It's because she does not trust that the changes are real

AND OR b/c you made those changes too late.


As a business owner, you should agree that this would not be a smart move. I have MY FUTURE to worry about now. Wife is deciding to remove herself from that equation, so I am only going to look out for my own benefit, as well as my daughters.

do what you want, and I know you will,

but please don't ask me to agree with you. I don't. AND you have to learn to deal with that. NOT everyone will agree with you and when they/we don't, it does not make us "wrong".

AND fwiw

1) Businesses are NOT assessed or taxed the same way homes are,

and so

2) the real answer to my questions are A) "NO She did not have counsel when she signed over all that money for a "family home""

and B) "YES YOU DO expect her to "donate" all of that money to YOUR BUSINESS which means, only you benefit.


you make LOTS of arguments about how unfair all this is to YOU. Yet you genuinely don't get her point of view.

You lack empathy for her point of view, b/c your feelings are so hurt. Your opinion happens to be very self serving and you don't seem able to concede much to her even conceptually.

Maybe that's something for you to ponder.


The unfortunate situation is, W texted me the other day. We were going back and forth about how to split up our assets. Some of the things she said made sense to me, others didn't. That is regardless, the one point she made, and one that she hasn't waivered on once since BD, is that she isn't going to ever come back. There will be no second chance, no time to see how things progress among us, no nothing. She is DONE and moving forward with her life. She has even started dating to see what is out there. Her mother told me that she is encouraging W to date even more. She has already seen a few guys, but apparently nothing has sparked for her as of yet. The point being, she IS MOVING ON.

Here are a few of her words, and her same basic stance she has taken since BD:

"You know what is so sad, (husband). I have no want to come back to you. I haven't even missed you. I have missed (Daughter) terribly, and I miss having a nice home to entertain in. I am sorry that hurts you but I am not coming back."

This^^ does not change my opinion much. Most WAWs think that when they leave or they don't leave.

IMO, She does not trust that your changes are deep or real enough. And she is angry at you.

It's easy to "change' When you see results and baby steps quickly..., but keeping those changes going "just to become a better man" even if there is no immediate pay off, or the pay off YOU wanted, is of questionable value to you.

That ^^ troubles me.

You seem awfully quick to equate her flaws to yours when it was clear that although she does indeed have faults, yours were what harmed the marriage the most.

You don't want to deal with that b/c those choices have made a huge mess you don't seem able to clean up....better to blame her for "at least her share" of it, whatever that means.

you're fine with her walking away with less than she came into the marriage with, and you pocketing her "donation" b/c ONLY SHE risked money...???

and blaming her for the divorce too....

see any pattern?