DBing, European style

[sandi2]

if she does decide to leave, it'll be at a point in our R when I have stronger feelings for her than at perhaps any other point in our R.

You've heard of WAW "script"? Well, LBH's have their script, too. Of course you have stronger feelings for her now more than any other point in the R! That seems to be common place when you are scared your S is leaving you. Your feelings didn't jump into high gear due to how loving your W has been to you, but rather out of fear of losing her.

I know you're trying hard......in what you see as winning her back, but you are doing things FOR her and you are EXPECTING something in return. That's not DBing. Plus, she won't respect you but will take advantage instead. And that's exactly what happened.

I strongly suggest you get your focus off her and what all you can do that will cause her to feel and act differently. And face it...that is exactly what you were doing. I have never seen it work out when a man tried it that way. If you persist, you will be getting more hurt headed your way.

So, stop trying to make brownie points with her and just focus on you. You are doi g nearly everything for the kids and housework to free her up. Why not leave the kids with her while you go out? I know, you were trying to give her space, but she just want space from you...so leave the kids with her to cook for for them and whatever is required while you have a day, night, or weekend away.

She has already spotted you for a tail kisser, so you've got to step way, way back from that, so, GAL, and start being the man you will be with or without her. But, never have expectations of what she will think or do in response to how you live your life, and if you do her any favors, do not set yourself up for disappointment/anger by having any expectation.

[makingmagic]

Sandi?... is there a place that we can read script about WAS and LBS. Thanks, waitingformagic

[Papa4Life]

Hi Sandi. Thanks for the reality check.

Well, I hope you're right, but it's probably b/c she just wants you to be okay with what she wants......which is a D.

Sadly I think this is indeed what she wants.

I read where a lot of H's mistake his W's "niceness"as some level of caring....or even loving him. Don't even go there. It will get you more messed up than you already are. Don't take this type of action from her as meaning anything more than what it seems on the surface.

Well... I wouldn't exactly go so far as to say that she's being "nice". I just thought maybe it was a baby step in the right direction, not a complete turnaround.

Of course you have stronger feelings for her now more than any other point in the R! That seems to be common place when you are scared your S is leaving you. Your feelings didn't jump into high gear due to how loving your W has been to you, but rather out of fear of losing her.

Or perhaps the realization of what I would be losing? And the devastating impact it would have on our four children? Not that W can't rationalize all of this away, but these are still very valid reasons for me to try to "win her back".

I know you're trying hard......in what you see as winning her back, but you are doing things FOR her and you are EXPECTING something in return. That's not DBing. Plus, she won't respect you but will take advantage instead. And that's exactly what happened.

She has long claimed that she has taken on a disproportionate amount of the responsibility for the household. So my first 180 was to change that pattern. I thought that would help her realize that I was serious about laying the groundwork for a happy partnership. But now that you mention it, she has suggested that this hasn't been a substantial enough change. But it's all I had to work with. And if doing a 180 isn't DBing, then what have I missed?

I strongly suggest you get your focus off her and what all you can do that will cause her to feel and act differently. And face it...that is exactly what you were doing. I have never seen it work out when a man tried it that way. If you persist, you will be getting more hurt headed your way.

Agreed. Now what? Maybe leave things for her here and there.

So, stop trying to make brownie points with her and just focus on you. You are doi g nearly everything for the kids and housework to free her up. Why not leave the kids with her while you go out? I know, you were trying to give her space, but she just want space from you...so leave the kids with her to cook for for them and whatever is required while you have a day, night, or weekend away.

She has already spotted you for a tail kisser, so you've got to step way, way back from that, so, GAL, and start being the man you will be with or without her. But, never have expectations of what she will think or do in response to how you live your life, and if you do her any favors, do not set yourself up for disappointment/anger by having any expectation.

Interesting that you mention the idea of getting away for a weekend. A friend of mine (back in the States, no chance he'll ever meet W), said the same thing to me recently. And I do know that one of the main drawbacks of a D as she sees it is how it will impact her career. Plus, MIL recently suffered a heart infarction and has made it clear that she will be less available to look after the kids when she has an appointment or when she wants to work on the day she's usually at home. Perhaps I'll start to look around for a weekend seminar I can attend. That would be great.

And it does get me slightly miffed when W objects that I'm going out, even though most of the time I have cooked dinner, cleaned the house and washed the dishes before I leave, whereas she leaves directly from work, or when she visits friends overnight or goes to her course for three days and two nights, and I'm left to deal with everything on my own.

So, in short, I guess what you're saying, Sandi, is what I've been telling people on this BB when I thought they needed to hear it, and that is: man up and GAL! Does that sum it up right?

[Papa4Life]

Sandi?... is there a place that we can read script about WAS and LBS. Thanks, waitingformagic

Hi W4M, I think what Sandi meant was that there are some very common things that WASs say, and there are probably just as many common things that LBSs say. There are no actual scripts. However MWD does talk about the WAS in DR. If you haven't read it yet, I strongly urge you to do so ASAP.

[Papa4Life]

Well, Sandi, some of the things that you said about my W just using me seem to have been born out by a discussion tonight. I made plans for Thurs. and Fri. evening, and W was ticked that I hadn't told her sooner. I took your advice to heart and texted her to ask if she could pick up kids from school and daycare and bring D to hockey (first time she's had to do that in....ever probably), but asked me to drop them off in the morning even though it's "'her" day (changes week by week depending on "her" schedule). Tonight she comes home and tells me she is going out tomorrow night. I was pretty surprised because S10 goes to b-ball on Wed. and that's a night I like to go running. She said, you can drop off S and then leave the twins with D9 for 45 minutes while you go running. Unbelievable. It wasn't enough that I worked my tail off to let her be able to go for an overnight visit, she couldn't just let me keep this one night free. I really am a doormat. We're going to start setting some boundaries. She doesn't even really have it that hard when I go out, because I take care of everything before I leave. She goes right from work and leaves everything to me. Grr...

[makingmagic]

P4L... YOU need to set bourndaries, not her! (just read it all). She is totally taking advantage of the situation.

Anyway, yes.. I am reading DR...must have missed the part on WAS script...was asking if there was something on this BB that I missed & should read. Tx.

[sandi2]

Sandi?... is there a place that we can read script about WAS and LBS. Thanks, waitingformagic

I don't know of any one place, but would be interesting, if anyone had the time. It's amazing how you can read so many posts and see the same things being said. That's why we call it "script", b/c it's as if they have been given the same script to read. That phrase is usually tagged on the WAS, but since most of what I read anymore are posts from LBH's, I see where they make the same statements that the other H's say when they first come aboard. (BTW, there are a couple of reasons I usually stick with posting to mainly the LBH's in Newcomers. One reason is b/c I try to give them the VP from a WAW. But if any of the LBW's ask for my help, I try to answer as best I can....so thanks for asking. )

Your feelings didn't jump into high gear due to how loving your W has been to you, but rather out of fear of losing her.

Or perhaps the realization of what I would be losing? And the devastating impact it would have on our four children?

Exactly, and you said it much better. Along with losing your W, is knowing that life for you and your children will never be the same again. It can be very good....but it won't be the same. It can be compared to losing a loved one in death. We know life will go on, but it won't be the same as when we had that person.

My heart really hurts for the LBS's that grieve over the pain that D causes. I have never been D, but it has happened to my children and all around me. It is devastating, to say the least.

I know you're trying hard......in what you see as winning her back, but you are doing things FOR her and you are EXPECTING something in return. That's not DBing.

She has long claimed that she has taken on a disproportionate amount of the responsibility for the household. So my first 180 was to change that pattern. I thought that would help her realize that I was serious about laying the groundwork for a happy partnership. But now that you mention it, she has suggested that this hasn't been a substantial enough change. But it's all I had to work with. And if doing a 180 isn't DBing, then what have I missed?

Yes, doing 180's is certainly a part of DBing. I can see how it can be confusing. I can't explain it well enough, but again I see most H's do this when they fist get into this. Their main objective is to get the W back. Some even try to convince us they are doing things for themselves and not to get her back. They know that's what they should do, but usually you can tell when they haven't quite been able. So, being honest with yourself is important.

I go around the mountain to get to my point, so bear with me.

I've noticed with some people, when they set goals, they make it about the spouse. For an example, "S will kiss me by Friday" I believe the goals need to be about the one who is here, b/c that is who is putting the work into the MR. You can't make your S do things, so don't make goals about them. So, that leads me to the 180's and doing them to get the S back. Of course, everyone wants to get the S back....whether they will actually say that in their post, or not. But the bottom line is the fact you cannot control her actions, and you cannot control her feelings. Have you ever thought about that......that you can't make her love you? I wonder if some men really "get it". B/c men are taught to pursue and be charming and seduce the female to get her in the mood to make love. Isn't that his basic drive? Would boys ever try to start dating if it wasn't for his sex drive? (ha) Maybe I'm getting off the subject a bit. But if everything you do is to get your W to love you more......or enough not to seek a D, then would it not be very difficult not to look for any sign that she was coming around? How could one not have a little expectation when you are trying to save the M?

The problem is.....whenever you place expectations in a WAW, you are going to be disappointed time after time....after time. And a lot of guys take it as rejection, b/c she really is rejecting him and the M. After a few kicks to his ego, it does a number on him, and that's when you'll see a LBH start to go down very quickly. Are you with me so far... Sorry I'm so long winded today.

DBing is designed for the LBS. And really, it's about helping you to become better all the way around. Finding the man you once were. The man she fell in love with.......or a better one. In doing so, you have to keep your focus on YOU, and not what you think she wants. So far, you've had your focus on what you thought would change her mind about leaving the M. But there you go.....trying to control what she feels. Can't do it! She's going to feel whatever.....good or bad. Your part is this: being the best YOU that is possible, and carrying out your responsibilities the best you can (work, relationships, obligations, etc.) Then, the rest is up to her. If you are a H that only a fool would leave (25yrs quotes)and your W doesn't respond positively, then what more could you possibly do? Think about it! Your best is your best, and anything less is less. It's up to her how she feels about your best! Here's the thing, you will not accomplish being your best if your focus is on changing her feelings. B/c your focus is on her and what she chooses to do or not do. Then you get all flustered when you don't see any results. That's what I meant by having expectations.

Your 180's should be about you and what it takes to change you for the better. If her complaints are legitimate, then use that as a guide in where you've been slack. Do a lot of soul
searching about it.

Some things that's suggested for 180's are to help you in areas in the M that could affect your S, but there again, you can't allow it to make you feel like a loser if you don't see good results. If she doesn't like the change, she doesn't. MWD suggests changing it around to see if it helps the R. But just don't get into a trap of focusing only on what pleases her.....and hoping if you please her enough, then she'll stay. B/c that can lead to clingy, needy, melty-man (as Starsky says), and it's a turn-off for women. Any time the man is too eager to do whatever it takes just to please the woman, he's putting himself in a dangerous light. He's more like her hired help instead of a man. That's why I said she would not respect you if you were trying to do all the housework, cooking, child-care, activities, etc., so she wouldn't have to worry about doing any of it. Instead of really appreciating it, it can backfire on you. This where so many LBH's over-kill, b/c they jump in and do it ALL. It sort of goes against the attraction factor and she begins to feel as if she's in a more "superior" position, IMO. Kind of like how men in the business world would think of the housewife. Difference is, it didn't affect his attraction for his W, but it does affect hers if the roles are reversed. It's how men & women are wired differently. So, guys have to be careful when they work from home, plus the child care. Does any of that make sense?

I'm not through with what I wanted to say about having no expectations, but I've got to run. Maybe finish up later.

[makingmagic]

Sandi2... I love how you put this "I go around the mountain to get to my point, so bear with me"... I am like that too!

Tx for answering me. It would be GREAT to hear a WAH perspective, I wonder if it would be the same as yours (a woman). Regardless, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to everyone on this board. It does give some insight as to where you were during your time. From the time you started baby steps of being nice to your h again, how long till you were ready to start piecing? Tx... feel free to drop a line/mountain in my thread. Tx so much! wfm

[AnotherStander]

Awesome post Sandi

I've noticed with some people, when they set goals, they make it about the spouse. For an example, "S will kiss me by Friday" I believe the goals need to be about the one who is here, b/c that is who is putting the work into the MR. You can't make your S do things, so don't make goals about them.

Excellent point! There's no harm in writing that down as a baby step, but you are so right that it should not be a personal goal. It's a baby step that shows the DB'ing is working. And it should not have a timeline attached to it, too many people try setting deadlines to baby steps, but every sitch is different and every WAS is different.

Have you ever thought about that......that you can't make her love you? I wonder if some men really "get it".

Well speaking as a man I will say that no, we don't get it, LOL! For us love = sex. For women love = passion/ connection. There should be a high school class on this, we typically don't get it until after BD when we suddenly realize how darned clueless we've been and we seek answers on where things went wrong! We think that if we can just get back to sex, that it means she loves us again. So instead of focusing on the lost passion and connection, we pour on the coals to get back in her pants (begging/ pleading/ negotiating/ etc.) which of course just repulses a WAW.

B/c men are taught to pursue and be charming and seduce the female to get her in the mood to make love. Isn't that his basic drive?

Unfortunately we think that's just the courtship process, and that after marriage that's no longer required. So we can sit on the couch in our underwear eating chips while watching football and expect our W to stop the laundry and meet us in the bedroom at halftime for sex and that therefore her need for "love" has been met, LOL!

And a lot of guys take it as rejection, b/c she really is rejecting him and the M. After a few kicks to his ego, it does a number on him, and that's when you'll see a LBH start to go down very quickly.

Boy do I need to post this reminder in a prominent place!

That's why I said she would not respect you if you were trying to do all the housework, cooking, child-care, activities, etc., so she wouldn't have to worry about doing any of it. Instead of really appreciating it, it can backfire on you. This where so many LBH's over-kill, b/c they jump in and do it ALL. It sort of goes against the attraction factor and she begins to feel as if she's in a more "superior" position, IMO.

In the case of my W, she eventually told me that it actually made her angry when I took everything over. One reason was that she said to herself "If it's so easy for him to change then why didn't he do it a long time ago?" and the other reason was that it made her feel like I was pushing her out of the house by demonstrating to her that I didn't need her for things like cooking/ cleaning/ laundry. So it actually had the opposite effect of what I was hoping for.

[25yearsmlc]

I don't know if this will help to clarify - and it's just my thoughts...

but having a goal of "Having h compliment me" is NOT Dbing, in my opinion.

That ^^ all relies on HIM and his reactions. Instead, a DB goal of mine was to "have a conversation with h, that does not escalate" (And what I really meant was that any escalation would NOT come from me, b/c I'm all I can control).

By me staying calm, it rarely escalated. So, I guess my point is, the focus of the goal was on what I could control. Not how he reacted. But sure, MY behavioral changes tended to, OVER TIME, generate different responses from him.

GAL is key and we hammer it b/c we know it works in several ways. And there is more you can do in that area. In fact that potential land mine might be a great way for you two to try and resolve a conflict. Not by you "losing it", but by you showing a NEW way of standing up for yourself without anger or blame.

IF you end up going to the MC (aka the div counselor, which I'd probably have to mention in a serious way sometime...)

make sure this issue comes up. That YOU do your best to handle things at home AND at your work and that you need to GAL and pursue your other interests (which makes you more interesting, as in, a man bringing something to the table, other than his needs) AND since you are coparents, a "team" so to speak, you are now working on communicating YOUR need to GAL more to her.

Taking my kids to Italy in 2006, without h, did a whole lot to wake him up but I swear to you, that trip was for ME (& the kids).

WE planned it together, which was incredibly empowering and gave us joy at a dark time in our lives. IOW, We did not 'wait for h to be available"

and then, WE went.

I simply acted as if we were, in effect, single, b/c hey, HE lived far away from us...

I was taking a trip with the kids (it was our anniversary and no way was I going to be home doing nothing)

Best money I ever begged/borrowed and scrimped....had a blast and did NOT think of h much, nothing reminded me of him, but so much was very stimulating. We really had fun, and without him.

The trip proved and Showed us that we would be fine, with or without him....very stimulating, not sad or morose and lots of laughing and bonding with my kids.

As a military family, we know that we can be happy and grow even if our spouse is gone. And some dads/moms who are deployed, manage to stay close to their kids. It's hard but possible. I've seen it.

for h, I can't say what he went through or thought when we were gone. I did not ask. (And btw, I'd never ask your w about the R if I could help it).

Anyhow, h sure tried calling me often while over there, which was hard. And there was no meaningful internet either. His secretary told me later that he was talking about our "trip without him", every day...

Oh well.

Like I said, it was empowering and enriching and FUN. Had nothing to do with him. But yes, it was noticed by him...

GAL is a paradox

in that you have to GAL for YOU to become a happier and healthier YOU for life, and not to get their attention...

but


it's the most likely way to get their attention.