Bomb dropped on me last week

[JMax]

Wow... I don't even know where or how to start. First, I'm new here. I've been with my wife for about 23 years; married for 16. We have 3 daughters: 13, 10, 6. 15/16 years were perfect. We had the ideal marriage. Then, last year, I went through a period of depression, which I am finally pretty much through.

The depression started in June. I denied I was depressed for months. We started a business together in August. Actually, she was already in business and I quit my job to work with her. It did not get off to a good start and we finally ended it when we separated last month. I neglected some of my responsibilities - even more so in her eyes.

Anyway, during the period beginning last June, my personality completely changed. I lost my self confidence. I started not trusting my wife. I became angry and possessive. We argued every couple weeks about many things, but mainly because of work concerns of mine. She started to withdraw, which of course made things worse for me - made me more possessive, more suspicious, angrier. I pushed and pushed.

She got more and more freaked out - didn't trust me at all. She knows I lied to her a couple times (I have never lied to her before). She feels I am controlling, manipulative, and she resents me for coming into her business and not holding up my end of things. All of this stuff is so uncharacteristic of me, normally. She also was freaking out because of our horrendous student loans. I didn't really have a plan for repaying mine - which needs to begin soon. Mid March, she told me she wanted me out of the house. So I left. I have no job and no prospects as of yet.

We went to a counselor last Wednesday. When asked why we were there, she said her mind was made up to leave and she wanted to ease the pain for me and maybe work on communication for post divorce. She didn't just say she wanted a divorce once, either. She said she couldn't take any more of this. The counselor asked her about that, and she said that she would be open to trying to reconcile at some point in the future, after filing or after divorce. I told her that if she filed, that would permanently end things between us. She is particularly afraid I will come to where she works (courthouse) and make a scene in front of people she works with. She is very image and reputation conscious (we are both attorneys).

Anyway, the depression started tapering off in February, I would say it is mostly gone now. She does not believe it though. Throughout the depression arguments, she would tell me she couldn't handle any more of it, but she always relented. I have made some 180's from when I was depressed, but I still need to do more.

She hasn't filed yet. Unfortunately, we have another counselor meeting this Wednesday. If she actually files, it will probably be the day after, or sometime this week.

Things I have going for me: she has LOVED me since we met; she adored me until this past year. We never argued, always got along perfectly. Our values are almost identical: we are loving, we are loyal, and we have always said that no matter what, we would never divorce. Our sex life is amazing, I think she would agree with that. She practices in the area of family law so she knows how devastating divorce can be - both to the parties and to their children. I can't believe she would put our kids through that without thinking things over carefully.

At the next counselor meeting I am going to do a couple more 180's that may shake her resolve to file for divorce quickly. First, I am going to confess to lying to her. I have mostly denied it up to this point. She knows about a couple of them anyway so I might as well come completely clean. I will feel better about myself, because I have never lied to her during the course of our marriage until the depression hit and I became desperate. Maybe if I start respecting myself more she will be able to start respecting me again? Thoughts?

Second, she believes that if she files, I will move several states away to start completely over, and will never ever consider reconciliation. Truthfully, I used to think the same thing - we talked about it from time to time as friends and acquaintances went through divorce. After thinking about it now though, as I am actually confronted with it, there is no way I would move away from my daughters. I would never move away from her either. I feel like if I tell her this, I might relieve some pressure?

Additionally,I am going to tell her there is no way I can rule out reconciling with her at any point in the future - divorce filing, divorce, or no divorce. I am thinking about telling her to do what she feels in her heart she needs to do and I will accept it - that I want to stay with her but I won't do it through lying or through attempting to force her, anymore. Should I also tell her that I understand how she is feeling and might even do it myself in her position? I created this mess and I feel like I need to show her I accept full responsibility, even if I don't like the outcome. This is a huge 180 for me, but its true and I don't control what she does, anyway. Is it going too far? Maybe actually saying it will open her eyes to the fact that I really have changed?

There is so much more I can - and should - add to flesh this out, but that is the gist of it.

So the basic situation is this: married, three kids, always got along until depression struck and I spiraled out of control. My personality completely did a 180: we argued, I berated, accused, etc. Afterwards, I apologized and always overpromised, sometimes lied. We would fight again over the same things a week or two later. She got tired of the pattern and doesn't believe it is over/gone. She resents me for making her carry the weight, she resents me for financial mismanagement, she resents me for alienating some of her friends, she is scared I will confront her in public, somewhere besides our home... and she just hates me in general.

Bottom line: I am on depression meds, I have been seeing an individual counselor and I have my emotions under control. I am pretty close to being back to the person I was before. And I am realizing what a messed up situation I have created.

[~ kd ~]

^

[JMax]

Oh, and I've gotten ILYBNILWY a few times in the last month or so - most recently tonight, via text. Half of me wants to DB, the other half wants to get vindictive. Turn our divorce into a real dog and pony show down at the courthouse where she practices. Hit her where it hurts! (hopefully this is just me blowing off steam!)

[adinva]

(((Jeff))) - a hug for you in this difficult time. I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I wanted to give you some of the DB perspective on the things you wrote, and others will chime in with more advice to help you get the ground back under your feet and start moving forward.

Wow... I don't even know where or how to start. First, I'm new here. I've been with my wife for about 23 years; married for 16. We have 3 daughters: 13, 10, 6. 15/16 years were perfect. We had the ideal marriage. Then, last year, I went through a period of depression, which I am finally pretty much through.

Since you're going to counseling, you should find out if the 15 years were as perfect as you think. Her reality may be completely different and the past year could be the straw that broke the camel's back. Take what you learn with a grain of salt, since WAS often rewrite history to justify what they're doing, but listen hard for the parts that ring true. Because to know what you're up against you need to listen to her viewpoint, you can't decide it was the depression alone, if it really wasn't.

The depression started in June. I denied I was depressed for months. We started a business together in August. Actually, she was already in business and I quit my job to work with her. It did not get off to a good start and we finally ended it when we separated last month. I neglected some of my responsibilities - even more so in her eyes.

That's a pretty big thing to 180. What are you doing to repair your work ethic in your own eyes and possibly hers? Were you being treated for your depression? If so, then why did you continue to neglect your work?

Anyway, during the period beginning last June, my personality completely changed. I lost my self confidence. I started not trusting my wife. I became angry and possessive. We argued every couple weeks about many things, but mainly because of work concerns of mine. She started to withdraw, which of course made things worse for me - made me more possessive, more suspicious, angrier. I pushed and pushed.

She got more and more freaked out - didn't trust me at all. She knows I lied to her a couple times (I have never lied to her before). She feels I am controlling, manipulative, and she resents me for coming into her business and not holding up my end of things. All of this stuff is so uncharacteristic of me, normally.

Do you feel like you have your personality back now? How much have you listened to the pain she felt living with someone like that? How long do you think she would need to see you act completely different before she would ever believe this won't happen again? This will take a long time, so take a deep breath and start making changes in yourself. Consistency + Time (lots of it) = Change she can believe in.

The depression angle sounds like a convenient excuse - it wasn't your fault, it was the depression, and now it's cured so she should take you back.... She is probably not buying it. She's just going to need to see you very very consistently better for a very very long time. It may not even reconcile you two, but you need to do it for you too. Doing it for you is really the main point right now.

She also was freaking out because of our horrendous student loans. I didn't really have a plan for repaying mine - which needs to begin soon.

Did this also happen in the last year? I suspect your marital problems really might have gone back farther than last June. Being completely honest and vulnerable will help you face the reality of your sitch and deal with it. There's no downside.

Mid March, she told me she wanted me out of the house. So I left. I have no job and no prospects as of yet.

Do you have any concerns about the appearance of abandonment? In most cases people here advice you do not leave the house, and they may suggest you try to move back in to separate bedrooms. Who's taking care of the kids? Is it in the kids' best interest for you to live elsewhere?

Also, if you have no job that's got to change. What can you do while you're looking for prospects? What can you do outside your field to bring in some money? Is there any chance to do newspaper delivery, work in a restaurant, write articles for publication? Start an informative blog in your area of law? Are there any people in your area who need some pro bono representation? Can you volunteer some of your time while you're networking to get a job?

What are you doing to be productive with your time while you're not working, and can you make a plan to pay down your student loans by $5 a month, just on the principle that you owe money you should be paying back?

We went to a counselor last Wednesday. When asked why we were there, she said her mind was made up to leave and she wanted to ease the pain for me and maybe work on communication for post divorce. She didn't just say she wanted a divorce once, either. She said she couldn't take any more of this. The counselor asked her about that, and she said that she would be open to trying to reconcile at some point in the future, after filing or after divorce.

That sounds somewhat encouraging. Most WAS seem to use counseling as a "box to check" that they did everything they could. Right now your job is to find out what really went wrong in your M and start working on the issues with yourself that you need to correct whether she comes back or not. What did SHE need that she wasn't getting? This should not be about your needs and how much you want her back. Right now she sees NOT being with you as in her best interest. Listen to that, accept it, understand it, and you'll at least not be pushing her away or forcing her to cement and justify it.

I told her that if she filed, that would permanently end things between us.

Do you really feel that way? Watch out for ultimatums. And things that may seem like a point of no return have a way of changing when the point comes. (Maybe she thought if you lied to her that would permanently end things between you.)

She is particularly afraid I will come to where she works (courthouse) and make a scene in front of people she works with. She is very image and reputation conscious (we are both attorneys).

All you can do about that is start TODAY being someone who would do no such thing. Show love, compassion, understanding, and give her the space she is asking for. Follow Sandi's 37 rules, take care of you, improve yourself, focus on your issues, and be the man only a fool would leave. Be that for a very long time until it is true.

Anyway, the depression started tapering off in February, I would say it is mostly gone now. She does not believe it though. Throughout the depression arguments, she would tell me she couldn't handle any more of it, but she always relented. I have made some 180's from when I was depressed, but I still need to do more.

You cannot TELL her you're better, you have to be better for such a long time that she believes it.

She hasn't filed yet. Unfortunately, we have another counselor meeting this Wednesday. If she actually files, it will probably be the day after, or sometime this week.

Some divorces are filed and never completed. Some divorces go all the way through and then the couple reconciles later. Don't throw blocks in your own way by setting rules about if she does this then it's over. She's been in a tremendous amount of pain to be doing this. You have work to do on yourself no matter what. Try to ignore/accept/understand that she wants out of your marriage, much as it hurts. You can't talk her into wanting to stay. Show.....over time.....

Things I have going for me: she has LOVED me since we met; she adored me until this past year. We never argued, always got along perfectly.

Never arguing is not a sign of a healthy relationship. Usually it means conflict avoidance.

Our values are almost identical: we are loving, we are loyal, and we have always said that no matter what, we would never divorce. Our sex life is amazing, I think she would agree with that. She practices in the area of family law so she knows how devastating divorce can be - both to the parties and to their children. I can't believe she would put our kids through that without thinking things over carefully.

Understand that she did, then, think it over carefully. Understand that she has been in tremendous pain, possibly for much longer than you realize, and understand how much she may feel your values no longer overlap. You've got to work on you.

At the next counselor meeting I am going to do a couple more 180's that may shake her resolve to file for divorce quickly. First, I am going to confess to lying to her. I have mostly denied it up to this point.

Is this about her needs or your need for absolution? Why not go in with a plan to listen to her and hear what she thought went wrong? You already mentioned that she already knows you lied. Just don't lie anymore.

Maybe if I start respecting myself more she will be able to start respecting me again? Thoughts?

It's the only way she might, but even if she didn't, would there be any reason you shouldn't try to respect yourself?

Second, she believes that if she files, I will move several states away to start completely over, and will never ever consider reconciliation. Truthfully, I used to think the same thing - we talked about it from time to time as friends and acquaintances went through divorce. After thinking about it now though, as I am actually confronted with it, there is no way I would move away from my daughters. I would never move away from her either. I feel like if I tell her this, I might relieve some pressure?

I don't see the point in going there right now. Just go and listen and find out what clues she can give about the things you need to learn from this.

Additionally,I am going to tell her there is no way I can rule out reconciling with her at any point in the future - divorce filing, divorce, or no divorce. I am thinking about telling her to do what she feels in her heart she needs to do and I will accept it - that I want to stay with her but I won't do it through lying or through attempting to force her, anymore.

Words about what you will or won't do don't mean much right now. Listen.

Should I also tell her that I understand how she is feeling and might even do it myself in her position? I created this mess and I feel like I need to show her I accept full responsibility, even if I don't like the outcome. This is a huge 180 for me, but its true and I don't control what she does, anyway. Is it going too far? Maybe actually saying it will open her eyes to the fact that I really have changed?

Yes, if you can say things that validate that you really really heard her, regret what happened, and want to change no matter what, no matter whether it brings her back or not, she may not feel like you're trying to manipulate her with your words. She may feel heard.

Take care of you, follow the 37 rules, and don't beat yourself up too much. Go from this day forward, and be better, for you.

[JMax]

Yes, she has said many times that we had the perfect marriage. Last year when the depression began, I told her I was unhappy with our marriage - that blindsided her. It wasn't even true, really. I just wished we spent more time together - she generally prefers to have lots of other people around.

During depression, I lacked self confidence, couldn't think, and couldn't make decisions. A couple routine, 15 minute tasks would take me all day. It is hard to explain, other than my mind was busy racing with other thoughts - trying to figure myself out, I guess. I am currently sending out lots of resumes and am trying my best to find a job. I also applied for an advanced degree program today. On the one hand, it's more student loans, on the other, with income based repayment, I will likely not notice a difference in the additional loan amount. Besides, it's what I want to do, it makes me more employable, and it will only take one additional semester for me to complete.

I feel like my personality is back, but that isn't to say that I don't have room for lots of improvement. I have improved in lots of areas already. This past year has made me much more empathetic for other people's lot in life, and I am much more expressive of my own feelings.

The student loan freakout began just prior to separation. It isn't that big a deal, I have them deferred, and with income based repayment, it isn't that large of a financial burden.

I do feel like I am appearing to abandon, but on the other hand, she told me that if I didn't leave, she would file immediately. I am between a rock and a hard place there.

She feels that me being gone allows her to concentrate fully on her work. It is the path of least resistance for her. She is unwilling to allow me to come back, she says ILYBNILWY, too. She did say she would be open to reconciling after divorce, but was adamant that she didn't want to stay separated for a few months to see how things go. She was really emotionally upset at the time. At one time, I felt that filing for divorce was the point of no return (she has known this for many years). I'm not so sure now because I never really thought I would be in this situation. Now that I am, I am willing to say that it's unknown what I would do if she were to file. That's the best I can do.

I have been following the 37 rules pretty scrupulously for the past couple weeks. I will be this way until I get frustrated enough to where I just move along. My 180's are for myself, so I guess that in a way, I have already moved along, to an extent. She won't be happy to learn I am considering going back to school, but I have to do what's right for me.

For us, never arguing was good. We are sooo similar. When there is a difference of opinion, one or the other of us lets the other have their way - then next time the other one gets their way. It's worked for us for a long time.

You are right, she is very very tormented to get to a place where she wants a divorce rather than trying to work things out. That is night and day different for her. Our kids are everything to us, she would never decide to divorce without carefully considering it.

I feel like I need to tell her I lied so that I can start respecting myself again. It might also show her that I am improving. At the next counselor meeting I'm just going to validate to the extent possible. I am not using depression as a convenient excuse, I take full responsibility for my actions and the hurt they caused. I just want to put our lives back together.

If she gives me the time to prove myself to her, she will see. If she doesn't, I guess someone else will get that opportunity.

[JMax]

I should also probably add that last summer, there were a lot of things that contributed to me going into depression: I was concerned about debt, about income, about quitting my job and starting a new one in a new business in an unfamiliar area, my wife was experienced in this area and I wasn't...

But here are the things that really put me over the edge: During this time period, my wife started taking vyvanse for her ADHD. She got irritable (she said the vyvanse makes her slightly less patient). The vyvanse made her lose appetite and she lost a lot of weight. She got an entirely new wardrobe and started spending a lot of time on her looks. Her personality started to change too - she became abrupt, cold, and egotistical. She was very concerned about creating and maintaining independence.

At the same time, she moved into a new office in anticipation of our new business starting in a couple months. She started spending a lot of time with a particular guy that was showing her a lot about a different area of law. It was very beneficial to her career, but I had a problem with the amount of time they were spending together and the depth of their sudden friendship. I tried to voice my concerns but I didn't do it well at all. I was angry. As the argument started spiraling out of control, I became accusatory and called her all sorts of names. I'm pretty sure we were both drunk at the time, which didn't help matters.

She responded angrily and wouldn't consider backing off a bit from the friendship. She wouldn't even talk about it. I blew up and threatened to leave. This caused us a lot of problems and this is why our business together never had a chance. Because I had a problem with the guy, she didn't want me to go near the new office, instead I worked from home.

Sitting here today, I don't believe anything inappropriate was going on between them, but that was never my point. My point was: I am not comfortable with my wife spending 30 hours a week with another man. Going out of town overnight, working on cases, etc. It might not have been an affair, but that's the way affairs begin. She could never understand my feelings and felt defensive and that I didn't trust her. She resented me for trying to be controlling and pressure her.

Maybe if we could have discussed it, she could have eased my fears, but as it was... it led to argument after argument.

Anyway, that's probably the main trigger for me going into a months-long depression. During that time, I could not function: I ruminated, I couldn't sleep, couldn't think, my reasoning skills were shot. I couldn't trust my own logic and making even routine decisions were impossible. I was paralyzed.

[JMax]

It's been a pretty good day for me today. I got approved for the new student loan, so plan A is to get a good job. If that doesn't materialize, plan B is to return and get my LLM in Taxation. It should only take this summer session and Fall.

Regardless of what happens with work/school, after doing some soul-searching, my ultimate goal is to open a legal clinic for underprivileged. Don't know how attainable that is, but that is what would give my life meaning. I am not chasing riches. I think I'd be real happy being a street lawyer like in the Grisham book. Maybe focus on tax appeals, bankruptcy, ssdi, ssi, and veterans benefits. Maybe through in some advocacy for homeless.

Tomorrow I have a MC appt. I do not expect good things. At the last appt, she basically shouted that she was done, that she wanted a D.

I have so many emotions roiling under the surface and am really torn as to what I want, going forward. I have friends telling me one thing, family telling me another, parents saying their piece, then there is what my logic tells me to do, what my heart tells me to do, what I should do because of my upbringing, what I should do for my kids, and what I should do for my wife -- all full well knowing that what I want is only a piece of the puzzle. I also know that all this crap is going through my wife's head. Unless anyone has a better idea, I just plant to listen 80/20 and validate every chance I get.

[JMax]

Bad day for me. At the counselor today, W said she has the papers drafted and is going to file. Her best friend texted me a while later and told me she is thinking of me today. FML.

[JMax]

Still tense, not sure if she has filed yet or not because our county doesn't have online records.

[~ kd ~]

You indicate that you are more empathetic, so I ask you this.

Even though upgrading your education is something that you want and believe will be beneficial... FOR YOU... and that the additional loan will not be much worse burden than you have currently... FOR YOU...

What about your W? What are HER thoughts on you doing something like that? What about the kids? How does your choice, without their input, affect them negatively...? Positively...?

You may be making decisions that you truly believe are in the best interest of everyone... eventually... in the future... yet what you really need to concern yourself about... right now... might be the present...

As AD pointed out, not arguing is not necessarily an indicator of a good M. It is interesting that you indicate that you thought there was "balance" when there was a difference in opinion. That is YOUR thought. Your W might not feel that was a good situation. Maybe she wanted to discuss the topic in detail and come down to a concise plan of action, when there were differences in opinions.

This is about perception, and right now... You believe your perception is right. Not a judgement. In our own worlds, we all think that our perceptions are right. In a business partnership or a M or any R... we need to consider that there are OTHER realities at play.

From what I am reading, it does appear that your W may very likely feel she is not being heard. That she was not getting the validation that she needed.

What can you do to truly listen to her... empathize with her... validate her feelings...?

Just an observation that you are trying to play out this bad sitch in a way that you think it should.

Right now, your best move might be to focus on you, being a great dad and bettering yourself in ways that can benefit OTHERS... Your life may have been focused on what YOU gain... what can we CONTRIBUTE (what THEY want, not what we think they want or need; which takes tremendous listening skills) to others is always very beneficial to growth.