I'd consider myself to be a very observant person. I know in my head what I would write down.
Now I AM going to write this stuff down to help keep myself accountable. So yeah, when I suggested this to Chachi, I decided to take my own advice.
SOOOOOOOOOO.... starting today, anybody who wants to start observing and journaling their spouses for the next two weeks, let's get to it. We can compare notes at the end regarding any perplexities in behavior or responses we may encounter.
Men NATURALLY can not express emotion or feelings. We crawl into our caves and then when it is to much to handle, we explode. This is the way it always has been and will be in the future. It's called TESTOTERONE. WE CAN OVERCOME THIS TO SOME DEGREE. We have to practice communicating and sharing ourt feelings. We will never be great at it, but we certainly can get better at it.
Again, you're awesome. Tonight I used your advice. I suggested that we turn off the TV, put on a mellow CD and just talk. We talked for a while about various things and eventually I brought up sex. I started by saying that I am so sorry for the way I have mishandled talking to her about the issues in our love life. And asked her if there is anything I can do to make her more happy or fulfilled. She said that she already does feel fulfilled and she's sorry that I don't. I tried to explain how much I want to make her happy and that I need to know if there's ever anything wrong, that I'm sorry if my anger has kept her from being more open. Anyway, we had a long talk, I kept calm, didn't place blame, just tried to get across my feelings, shed a tear or two, and she responded really positively.
She said that she has really made a conscious effort in the last month or two to gear herself up for sex earlier in the day by allowing herself to think "dirty" thoughts or by reading erotica. And she made the point that she hadn't given me the "hurry up and get some" duty sex since she started doing this. I told her how much I appreciated that.
The vibrator was another story, and I think I understand now. To her, there are people like us, who make love and it's a beautiful thing, and there are drug-addicted porn stars who use dildos and vibrators. She felt like my giving her the vibrator was heading down a path she didn't like. My confusion was about the erotica she likes, which is pretty hard core. She said that since it's in her imagination, she can make the people "normal" rather than "trashy" in the stories. I told her that I respected her feelings about that, and we had a good laugh.
I told her how much foreplay and afterglow cuddling mean to me. She said that after sex, she feels the need to put her clothes on immediately, and I have to respect her feelings. Cuddling with our PJs on is fine with me.
Then we ML and it was wonderful. We cuddled and talked a little more and mutually decided that it was a great night and that we should turn off the TV more often. HOORAY!!
So things are looking much better, and I'm feeling a lot better about myself and my marriage. I don't think I'm prepared to do the written log right now, as I don't think she would appreciate it if she found out. (Speaking of which, she probably wouldn't appreciate all my posts on this board.) Here are the answers to Corri's questions. Thanks to everyone for your words of advice and encouragement!
1) Two children, 5 and 2. 2yo is high maintenance.
2) The kids go to bed at 8:30 or 9. 2yo gets up a lot and 5yo gets up and climbs in our bed in the middle of the night.
3) I work M-F, and am gone 8:30-6:45, rarely work OT, never bring work home. She's freelance, part-time, sporadic schedule, 5-10 hrs/week. We are also starting a small business.
4) If I gave her 3 hours to herself, she would go see a movie that I'm not interested in or go shopping, or get her nails done.
5) On a scale of 1 to 10, the house's neatness or cleanliness is an 8.
6) She does 80% of the cooking in the house.
7) She spends too much.
8) 1 cat, we share the duties.
9) We have a TiVo now, so the timing of TV shows isnt as crucial, but her (and my) FAVORITE TV shows are on Sun 9-11, Wed 8-10, and Thu 8-10. We also both like movies.
Quote: She said that she has really made a conscious effort in the last month or two to gear herself up for sex earlier in the day by allowing herself to think "dirty" thoughts or by reading erotica
This is a typical LD woman thing, To "Allow" herself to think dirty thoughts. I truly don't understand this way of thinking. I know it happens a lot, but to think that people DON't think about sexual things is mind boggling. Sex is ALWAYS present in my mind, it's like the DEFAULT image in my head. Now if I think of other things, the image of sex is temporarily suppressed, but if my mind begins to wander, then thoughts of sex AUTOMATICALLY return. I know, it's the testosterone causing this, but to actually have to "ALLOW" yourself to think about sex to me is very bizarre. My wife is even worse then this. I don't think that my wife really EVER thinks about sex. She is thinking of all the mundane things going on, which really seems BORING to me. I guess I still have a long way to go to truly understand the LD mind.
I know you probably didn't mean it this way, or maybe you do, but quit pissing on everyone else's parade. You added no encouragement to Chachi, all you did was express YOUR puzzlement, yet again, over how someone else could possibly do something YOU can't fathom. Could you get the he!! over it already and just accept it?
You continually turn other people's threads and what THEY are working on into discussions about YOURSELF. Start your own thread a b!tch there, would you? It isn't always about YOU.
YEAH FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!! HAPPY DANCE, HAPPY DANCE, HAPPY DANCE!! (Just to give credit where credit is due, MPT came up with the Happy Dance)
This is all so fantastic!! Now, can you tell me why she heard you? Can you tell me why this worked, and what you have to continue to do to keep things on track?
I can see by your answers that your life is 'typcial,' especially with young kids. The fact that you are getting any sex at all with two kids under 6, and one being high maintenance is pretty doggone amazing.
Understand that for a woman like your wife, everything is going to have to be in its proper place before she can not feel guilty about relaxing. And when she finally does relax, she is probably so tired that she is close to being mentally numb. I don't say this to give her an excuse, but to illustrate to you that her 'shutting down' in many instances is not about you, even though it may feel that way. If you can understand that you don't have to take this personally, it is going to save you a tremendous amount of agony.
Based on your 'schedule,' I'd say your best 'window of opportunity' is between 10 and 11 p.m. on Mondays, Tuesdays, Fridays and Saturdays. I'd use Mon. and Tues. for shorter sessions, and maybe the weekends you can spend more time ML, but with little ones, I doubt it.
Now, I say trying for Mon., Tues, Fri and Sat, because on Sun. Wed. and Thurs., your favorite TV shows are on. Yes, you could turn on a VCR, and maybe sometiems you will, but understand, too, that she enjoys watching those shows WITH you, and it would be a really good time to cuddle, and have non-sexual touching time.
If she likes to have lights out before 11, then you had best not put the moves on at 10:45, you know? Or if you do, don't be surprised if it's a 'quickie.' If you respect the fact that she needs her sleep (and she does), and you can work with her to have your ML done by 11, she will appreciate your respecting her needs, and I bet she'll be much more 'into it' with you.
Okay, you don't have to keep a journal, but you do need to watch her. You really need to know what 'things' she likes to have done by the end of the night. She likes to have the kitchen all clean, the trash needs to be out, the toys need to all be picked up.... whatever... and without her having to ask, just take it upon yourself to help make sure these things are done (if you don't already... if you do do these things already, good for you!) Don't look to her to stroke you -- "look, honey, I'm doing this FOR YOU! Do you see me?" Just do it and move on. If you don't expect a thank you, then it doesn't hurt you if it doesn't come.
These are the 'little things' for the LD spouse, just like my list for the HD spouse I have on my thread. (If any other LDs want to chime in here, please feel free!!!). And probably, for me, the biggest turn off on the planet is anger or digs. If you start feeling frustrated with your wife, or you start feeling angry with her, it is far better to take a day, or two, or three, to calm down and get a grip on your feelings than it is for you to unload on her. Unloading might feel good... so unload here. Vent here. Don't do it at her (if it's about her).
Once you have your feelings under control, you need to sit down and 'talk' with her about it without laying blame at her feet... and if you feel you are getting angry during the conversation, tell her, and say, "I'm starting to feel angry again. Maybe we should continue this at another time." Or ask her to give you a minute while you get your feelings under control.
What most people do not understand about anger is that it's very natural for us to feel it. But just because we 'feel' anger does not mean we have to give in to it, and let IT control US. You truly can feel 'anger' and not have to act on it. You can say to yourself, "I'm feeling really angry right now," but mentally step around it. Yes, it takes some practice, but if you think about all the times you've been angry, name me one instance when giving in to that emotion ever furthered your cause.
Saying things like, "you know, you really piss me off," or "it really pisses me off when you do that," are not phrases conducive to ML. Timing is everything. If you think you might have a chance of ML that night, 8 p.m. is NOT the time to talk about her spending habits. Leave that for a TV show night, or a scheduled "talking session."
Let's say you agree that you ML more often, and it seems to you she did great for awhile, but things start falling off. Rather than get pissy or pouty about it, schedule a talk time, and then get honest with her. Don't say things like, 'you don't do such and such like you said you would.''You'd be really happy if I wasn't here at all...' 'All I am is a paycheck to you.' These are NOT good things to say. They may FEEL true, but they will not help you solve the problem.
Instead, be honest. 'We said we were going to try to ML more often, and it seems to me things are falling off. Does something not feel right to you? Is there a problem I need to be aware of? Are you feeling frustrated? Is there something I can do to help?" See the difference?
This is not to say that you don't get to lean on her when you are feeling something either. If she brushes you off, or her rejection hurts you, tell her. But tell her by explaining how YOU feel, not what she did to make you feel that way.
Schedule a talk time, and tell her that when you didn't get to ML the other night, it really hurt. You were having a such and such kind of day, and you really wanted and needed to feel close to her, and for whatever reason, you were just really, really missing her that day. I know you get tired, and I know you have a lot on your plate, and you probably didn't intentionally mean to do anything to me, but I'm just feeling lonely (or whatever).
Now, you may not be able to fathom yourself saying these things, they may seem very feminine to you... but listen, you are saying these things to HER, the woman you love, and you are doing so in the privacy of your home. (Wow, I just got the weirdest feeling of deja vu there... )
The best way to get what you need is to make absolutely certain your spouse is getting what they need first. And this is the type of stuff she needs from you. After a while, it won't make a hill of beans difference to you who 'goes first.'
Hi Chachi, I've been following your thread and I'm thrilled with how things are going for you. I really hope everything works out because both you and your wife sound like you're willing to do whatever it takes!
Quote: Another thing I do when she refuses sex is to "roll over and play dead". Next time I'm going to do the opposite. I will say, "No problem," and cuddle up to her.
I meant to comment on that statement when I first read it a few nights ago... you're a smart guy Chachi and I just wanted you to know that that was such a problem for me and my H. That rolling over and playing dead really makes it seem as if it IS just sex - and not love. I wished so many times that my H would cuddle up to me rather than turn over and think and feel the horrible things he did.
Quote: I'm not willing to walk away from my marriage and my family! Honestly, if we didn't have kids and/or weren't married, I would have done it months ago, without question.
Wow! Does that ever sound like something I could have said. I was thinking my H needed a wake up call or else. Thankfully, I never had to go through with moving into our spare bedroom. Ever since we really *heard* and *understood* how each of us were feeling inside, everything has pretty much returned to how it was the first few years of our relationship. Now, this is only going on our second week, so we're bound to have some setbacks, but I have *seemingly* gone from an LD (for 6-7 years) right back to an HD!
Quote: The best way to get what you need is to make absolutely certain your spouse is getting what they need first. And this is the type of stuff she needs from you. After a while, it won't make a hill of beans difference to you who 'goes first.'
Amen. You're so awesome Corri! I love every one of your posts. Keep up the great work You are such an asset to this community.
Corri, thanks, as usual. Keeping the anger under raps yet expressing emotions is the key, and that's not easy for men. Not laying blame is tricky, too because when you say, "I'm feeling hurt and lonely," your spouse may hear , "You have hurt me and abandoned me." I find with my W that I have to make sure she's prepared and I need to speak very sweetly. As soon as she starts to feel defensive, it's over.
Aquarian, I'm glad things are going well for you and your H. Thanks for the kind words.
You are such an asset to this community.