DBing, European style

[Papa4Life]

Hi, my original posts are in ital. 25's replies are in bold. My responses are in blue.

So, here I am, back again, bloody and bruised after a much needed working over by Sandi and 25.

"working over by Sandi and 25"....and "bloody and bruised"...
okay...nothing weird about that.

I just meant that both you and Sandi had presented me with some hard truths, ones that I now see I've been in denial about. I know now, for example, that I haven't yet internalized the concepts of DBing and that I need to put tremendous work into detaching from my wife.

And as for what to what else you would want to focus on now...what else is there other than your work? You want to spend your time correcting us? Arguing with us? Papa, really dig deep and THINK about that....

I certainly don't want to waste time arguing with people on this BB, because I've already had plenty of experience with arguing and being defensive in my personal life! And perhaps I chose my words poorly or used an analogy in some of my responses. If so, I apologize, that was certainly not my intention. I sincerely appreciate your taking the time to offer your advice and feedback. In future I'll try to be more careful with what I write and be more clear when what I'm writing is meant as a joke.

What do I want to work on? Well, conflict resolution seems to be job #1 right now. Plus, I want to improve my work situation. I also want to do more GAL activities (other than just going to bars with friends), which I have been reluctant to do because I often felt/feel awkward in such situations in this culture. I've signed up for piano lessons, which start in a month or so, which I'm looking forward to because I always regretted that I stopped playing when I was younger.

I'm working with an IC (who's also our MC) and I've been undergoing EMDR treatments for my anger management issues.

So the IC who is working with you on your anger issues AND supposedly is there helping repair the marriage, is one & the same? To me, it probably won't take long before they say the marriage is over, and you are the main problem. Even if that is the truth, I'd get a new IC for this work...

I do understand, and I agree completely. However, I feel that the IC has helped me make some significant progress both in my current sitch and in the past. Her use of EMDR has really helped me work through issues from my past that I might not otherwise have been able to... "get at", I suppose is the right term? Get at and confront, which I might have been unable to do otherwise. I think that while she is a fine IC, I don't want to see her with my W for MC purposes. I've decided to end the MC sessions with her.

It might even turn out that this whole situation might ironically turn out to be one of the best things that ever happened to me...

A lot of us feel we are better people now than before. I know I am. But it' a choice one makes between feigning the role of victim/martyr, or the one who overcomes adversity, looks bravely within and digs deep to makes fundamental changes in their world... I've heard it said that the real journey in life is an inward one...

Yes! You said it all right there: I am "feigning the role of victim/martyr" and it's complete BS! I know this! I've seen my parents do it, blaming everybody else for their mistakes and their individual situations (they divorced shortly after I was born and both STILL blame the other person). I am working to stand on my own two feet. I've accomplished quite a bit in my life, coming from essentially nothing and with zero help from anyone and I'm quite proud of the fact that what I have achieved, I've done it on my own. So, now it seems clear that I have to start believing in that part of myself again and become that person again.

After experiencing my own personal Good Friday last week...

When you say your "own personal Good Friday", do you mean when you lost your temper with your w about the OM?

To be honest, I meant that I had been (rightly!) rebuked by some people on this board after my screw ups last week -- in a sense "suffering" for my own sins, but trust me I was my own harshest critic about that and the "salvation" of this oh-so-belabored metaphor is that I've gained a good deal of insight, not to mention excellent feedback from you, Sandi, Stander and others. Oh and, I don't believe there is an OM. And I also know that, even if she did, there's nothing I can do about that so I'm working on detaching more on that issue because there's nothing I can do to change that.

When you put yourself in the role of the crucified one, what happens next? Do you manage to reach the other party, meaningfully? Or do you come off as an angry self righteous guy? IOW, do you really get anywhere? Are the victories" short lived?

I might have trouble seeing myself from the perspectives of others, but in retrospect, I'd probably have to grudgingly admit that, yes, it ends up hurting myself more than others. I know I have a passive-aggressive streak in my a yard wide and drinking poison will NEVER make someone else sick. I hope to address these issues in a conflict management course.

You've mentioned the children much less than you mention yourself and you do that measuring thing, which you thought was reasonable.

What I should have said, rather than "it seems reasonable", was that after a long, difficult day, I feel that it is reasonable to ask your S to take over with the children so that you can have a time out. I love my children, 25. I take darn good care of them, and they are happy, confident kids. I NEVER think of my time with them as "babysitting" or a "burden", like some unenlightened fathers do. Despite my own personal issues, I have dedicated the last 11 years of my life to making sure that they do not have to endure the same kind of childhood that I...well, let's just put it out there: survived. If I don't mention my children, it's because other than the issue of not having been given/taken enough time for myself as I should have, my children are by no means the cause of the problems in our M. Everything that I do with/for my kids, I do so with love and joy and I have never even considered the ridiculous notion that they are to blame for any problems in my life. Yes, having four of them does complicate things from a purely logistical standpoint, and yeah most days I'm pretty bone weary at the end of a long day. But I kiss all of my kids goodnight and tuck them in bed and have read to them just about every night since the day they were born. And on most nights, they call me back as I'm leaving the room to give me a hug around the neck and tell me that they love me. That makes all the hard work more than worthwhile. So, if I don't mention my kids much, it's because as far as I'm concerned, they're beyond reproach when it comes to the $#!% storm I'm in now.

and I wrote a LONG post to you with many questions...almost none of which you hav answered.

Sorry, it's taken me more time than I thought it would to address some of these issues. Please don't take that to mean that I was blowing you off or didn't appreciate your taking the time to post your responses.

What kind of changes are you ready to make in yourself, to be able to DO conflict resolution? No one really likes conflict, so saying you are "conflict avoidant" or "need to polish up o it", as if it's merely a unique preference, overlooks that conflict resolution is an essential tool for adulthood. Unless you bully someone else, OR are always caving in to them, (which usually leads to resentment and passive aggressive behaviors later) then lacking conflict resolution skills will kill nearly all relationships.

I never even really considered how vital this skill is and how... inproficient I am at it. My W could probably use some help in this area as well, although I'm not going to start asking her to accompany me to a conflict-resolution course. Detach!!

I think working outside the home will aid you in learning this...b/c maybe your w is the only adult you are frequently interacting with, and you two have not succeeded in resolving conflict well.

Agreed and agreed. I've been hearing this over and over again from people (although, all that R talk with the family and friends is a thing of the past now). She is indeed one of the only adults I interact with on a regular basis, and I'm working on changing that with my GAL efforts.

But I definitely feel your defensiveness. Your comment about the feedback Sandi and I are giving you as if we were punishing you, reveals a lot. We do this for free, fyi...

Again, I feel as if you are angry about that post and I'm sorry if that's the case. I actually meant that in a positive way, in the sense that you and Sandi helped me to face some truths that I see now, I've been unable to be realistic about in the past. I regret that you felt I was being defensive, and I do indeed appreciate your taking your valuable time to respond in a direct, honest way and offer advice and feedback that I solicited and which I do feel is of value. I hope my response won't cause you to avoid responding in the future.

However, I'm often involved in finding solutions for people who are angry or traumatized...and YES there ARE tools out there. You must be willing to be right and lose, and to be wrong sometimes. It's alright to be wrong, as long as you own it, and then chamge it b/c you learned something from it. No one learns a thing if they're always right...

Yes, "own it" and "change it b/c you learned something from it". Clearly this skill will come in handy under the current situation and in the future trying to have adult relationships with other human beings.


I'm also interested in improving my communication skills with regard to validation.

Good....so, tell me, what would your WIFE SAY about how you communicate?

My wife would say that my communication skills, up until recently, were very much lacking. A lot of the time, when we disagreed about things, I would just walk away. She would follow and try to 'force' me to communicate and I would end up yelling at her to leave me alone (victim/martyr/pathetic). A lot of times, I would try to reinitiate the conversation later, only to have her be unwilling to respond or even react in any way and -- as demonstrated by my actions last week -- I blow up and say something outrageous as my anger increases due to her lack of willingness to talk things through. My W also has anger/depression/conflict-avoidance issues, but I'm not here to discuss that: I'm working on me.

Since things started to take a bad turn last year, I started eating better (became a vegan, which is no easy thing in this country where they've never met a cow they didn't like), I started exercising, dropped about 45 lbs and now am running 5k 3 times a week. I said to the STBXMC (little joke there...) that I was working on getting healthy from the outside in. And that's kind of how it feels. Having the energy to do more has helped me a lot in this sitch.

Embrace humility b/c this is a humbling experience...and most of us are better for it. Try reading ... Crimson, Denver and FH, all dug deep and made some scary discoveries, as did I and others...but we took charge of our flaws and we changed.

You said it in a nutshell: "took charge of our flaws and we changed", that's what I want to do! THAT is the perfect encapsulation of this whole...quest that I see myself as being on right now! I want to do just that because, let's face it, even if the M cannot be saved (please, lord, don't let that be the case), I still need to look myself in the mirror every morning and I'd like to like what I see there.

Hope I didn't put anybody off with my previous posts. I guess it's almost inevitable that you're going to hang out your dirty laundry on a BB such as this.

how else would you change or grow, if you are going to hide the truth from yourself and some strangers who want to help you save yourself, and your marriage? Most of this if VERY hard to do...but for me, talking here was NOT the hard part...it was the easy part and the comfort I found here and with my DB coach, was a miracle. I think it's healthy to finally, at long last, get these issues out in the open of course and perhaps get some hints on how to finally move past them and become the person I know I have the potential to become. Forget the hints. Get "the manual" and become a man only a fool would leave. That's your mission, whether she returns or not...

Thanks 25, and Sandi, and Stander and everybody else who reads and post. I'm learning every day and thanks to your tips I've got a much clearer view of what I should be focusing on. And I appreciate it.


And maybe - just maybe - it'll make my beloved W take notice.