DBing, European style

[Papa4Life]

And I should point out, just for the sake of clarification, that I'm not a stay-at-home dad. I work as a freelance translator and, when I have time to give it my full attention (i.e. once the twins start school in the fall), I'll be earning almost as much as W does. I do, however, think it might be healthier for me to work outside the home to ease the sense of isolation that comes along with working in a home office.

I am also making strides with GAL. I'm in shape, run 5k three times a week, socializing with friends more and I'm even more active with kids school and sports activities. Obviously I've got a ways to go, but I have learned at least a few things from DR and this forum!

[Papa4Life]

And I should point out, just for the sake of clarification, that I'm not a stay-at-home dad. I work as a freelance translator and, when I have time to give it my full attention (i.e. once the twins start school in the fall), I'll be earning almost as much as W does. I do, however, think it might be healthier for me to work outside the home to ease the sense of isolation that comes along with working in a home office.

I am also making strides with GAL. I'm in shape, run 5k three times a week, socializing with friends more and I'm even more active with kids school and sports activities. Obviously I've got a ways to go, but I have learned at least a few things from DR and this forum!

[Papa4Life]

Sorry for the double post.

[Papa4Life]

So, here I am, back again, bloody and bruised after a much needed working over by Sandi and 25. Thanks so much for the tips. I was initially tempted to write an expansive response to the points made, but other than the stay-at-home-dad misunderstanding I mentioned previously, I think it's best to focus on the important 'takeaways' from the feedback provided.

I'm working with an IC (who's also our MC) and I've been undergoing EMDR treatments for my anger management issues and I'm making progress, but of course there's still quite a way to go. I am a good person, I just have issues that I'm finally addressing, taking AD and ADHD meds (although,I'm understanding now that I might have been misdiagnosed). It might even turn out that this whole situation might ironically turn out to be one of the best things that ever happened to me...

After experiencing my own personal Good Friday last week, I've managed to turn things around attitude-wise and I'm ready to regain the ground that I lost along with my temper last week and have a brighter Easter Sunday.

I'm going to look into improving my conflict resolution skills because apparently it's an essential skill that I'm sorely lacking in. Perhaps there's a course available somewhere. I'm also interested in improving my communication skills with regard to validation. Stander had some good examples on this thread and elsewhere and I'm working on internalizing those examples. I know that will help me tremendously in my quest to achieve some degree of self-realization.

Hope I didn't put anybody off with my previous posts. I guess it's almost inevitable that you're going to hang out your dirty laundry on a BB such as this. I think it's healthy to finally, at long last, get these issues out in the open and perhaps get some hints on how to finally move past them and become the person I know I have the potential to become. And maybe - just maybe - it'll make my beloved W take notice.

[Papa4Life]

So dumb... I've been reading "The 5 Love Languages" and asked W by email (with inlaws and kids til tmw) to take the quick quiz to find out her love language. It turned out that my email was sent just as hers arrived with a link to a site where you can fill out a divorce/coparenting plan. Man, I just keep sticking my foot in my mouth. I'm sure I'll enjoy the taste of shoe leather living in my bachelor apartment with visitation on Tuesdays, Fridays and alternate Sundays...

Oh wait, she took the quiz. Hmmm.... Somehow that makes me feel even worse...

[Papa4Life]

So HOW does it help me to know that she scored highest on "physical touch" on the " 5 love languages" when I'm not supposed to even initiate a conversation with her let alone initiate any kind of physical contact??? I dunno, maybe an arm pat once in a while? She has kissed me on the cheek twice (when leaving for her course) and hugged me maybe twice, but only after a couple of follow-up salvos to the initial BD.

And what in the world am I supposed to do about the divorce plan? Man, it sometimes feels as if DBing is just giving her all the space she needs to get out of our M as quickly as possible! Or... Maybe that's the idea? Maybe seeing that the door is open will let her feel less claustrophobic and trapped? Hmm, maybe there's something to that. God I'm a NEWB!!

[sandi2]

When I was a WAW, the last thing I wanted was my H asking me to take some quiz so he could speak to me in my LL. I know that book is recommended a lot, and is a really great book. But it isn't exactly what I believe you need to apply at this particular point in your stitch. B/c that book is suggesting showing affection, words of affirmation, gifts & flowers, etc., which can be seen as pursuing by the WAW. If she is trying to get you to sign D papers, how do you think she feels when you try to get her to fill out a "love quiz"? I purposely say this rather harshly b/c I want you to get your head screwed on straight and stop doing things before you think about it rationally.......which asking her to fill out any quiz that quiz is showing her how desperate you feel.

I can't stress enough how a WAW, who is having an A, thinks those type of attempts from the LBH'S is too little too late! She feels that way so strongly that it infuriates her when you do things like that now. So just stop with the gimmic....quick fixes b/c it is too late for them. In her mind, you should have been trying to do find her LL years ago....when she was interested.

Everything is different now. Do you really understand that it is? You are trying to keep a person who wants to escape having a life with you. Many times, it takes the LBS releasing that hold....before the WAS reconsiders their decision.

You do no not have to agree that you want a divorce from her. Some people here may advise you to fight her every inch of the way. But I believe the more you fight and resist, the more she will want to get away from you.

You are probably thinking that it would only release her for the OM to have. To be blunt, the OM already has her and the M hasn't stopped it. Nothing you've tried has changed her decision. So why continue doing the same?

I'm not telling you to give up loving her. I'm not telling you to give up having hope for a future with her. But I do believe if you stop trying to control her and force her to be where she doesn't want to be, you may actually get a second chance at life together.

Oh btw, I knew you worked from home, but you are home with the kids all day while she's out in the work force......meeting attractive people who responds positively. But when she comes home, what she sees and hears is very much the same as men who use to describe the housewife. It has the same effects, it's just reversed from what was seen as "traditional roles", and I think it may be harder for some men when they aren't working outside the home, based on what I've read and witnessed over time. But whichever one stays at home has to work at staying attractive, interesting, charming, happy, etc. Every person who has been the parent to stay in the home (working from the house or not) and had to wear all the hats you've described knows how hard it is!

Think carefully before acting on anything again.

[makingmagic]

not trying to hijack, but great advice sandi2... as a WAS, I would love for you to comment on my sitch someday.

[25yearsmlc]

25, == problem areas you've outlined are, of course, things I've known for some time and I'm working on them both on my own and in IC.

how is that going? Are you getting better in any appreciable way? If a half dozen sessions isn't producing measurable change, IMHO,

I'd get a new counselor AND OR

kick myself in the arse and start making the changes I keep talking about making...

Let me ask you this: so the next step for W is that she wants to make individual plans for pre- and post-D. Do I just go along with that and do what she asks? Do I tell her that I still feel that she should work on things?

you do not E V E R

TELL HER that you still feel SHE SHOULD WORK on things. You have plenty to do in your sandbox. Stay in your sandbox and OUT of hers...



Stander had a great post somewhere about validation (you're right, I do probably just agree with her and call it validation -- blam, another 2x4 between the eyes from 25!).

What was the "blam between the eyes" to you? I'm not upset but I am curious and I think we might be onto soething here...

How do you handle feedback from your wife?

I mean, maybe you just used the words careflessly or tossed them out.

But I'm a bit of a wordsmith. I practice law and write for a living.

I didn't feel I gave you any "blams between the eyes", (although Lord knows I probably have given them to others).

So either I am not recalling it accurately (always possible), or I am being careless (also possible!)

or you have an issue with feedback from women. I won't take myself out of the equation but

I really want you to look at that comment, and what it projects to your wife about you as a man.

How can she talk to you about HER needs if you feel attacked by it? And if she cannot communicate about her needs, or resolve conflict with you b/c of this defensiveness

then isn't it logical or at least foreseable, that you are both now, here?


I've got to learn how to do that effectively.

Thanks everybody for sharing your incredible wisdom and support.

Happy Easter.

You're welcome. Happy Easter to you too!

[25yearsmlc]

So, here I am, back again, bloody and bruised after a much needed working over by Sandi and 25. Thanks so much for the tips. I was initially tempted to write an expansive response to the points made, but other than the stay-at-home-dad misunderstanding I mentioned previously, I think it's best to focus on the important 'takeaways' from the feedback provided.


"working over by Sandi and 25"....and "bloody and bruised"...
okay...nothing weird about that.

And as for what to what else you would want to focus on now...what else is there other than your work? You want to spend your time correcting us? Arguing with us? Papa, really dig deep and THINK about that....


I'm working with an IC (who's also our MC) and I've been undergoing EMDR treatments for my anger management issues \

So the IC who is working with you on your anger issues AND supposedly is there helping repair the marriage, is one & the same? To me, it probably won't take long before they say the marriage is over, and you are the main problem. Even if that is the truth, I'd get a new IC for this work...

really, I worry that you'll feel inhibited from saying your real feelings with the IC, if they're later sort of used against you in the joint sessions...do you see where I'm coming from?


and I'm making progress, but of course there's still quite a way to go. I am a good person, I just have issues that I'm finally addressing, taking AD and ADHD meds (although,I'm understanding now that I might have been misdiagnosed). It might even turn out that this whole situation might ironically turn out to be one of the best things that ever happened to me...

if you have traits that are destructive to you/others (if they hurt others, then they also hurt you) then YES you must work on them and change. The spiritual and emotional growth that can come out of this ordeal, is by far the biggest (& possibly only) upside.

A lot of us feel we are better people now than before. I know I am. But it' a choice one makes between feigning the role of victim/martyr, or the one who overcomes adversity,

looks bravely within and digs deep to makes fundamental changes in their world...

I've heard it said that the real journey in life is an inward one...


After experiencing my own personal Good Friday last week, I've managed to turn things around attitude-wise and I'm ready to regain the ground that I lost along with my temper last week and have a brighter Easter Sunday.

When you say your "own personal Good Friday", do you mean when you lost your temper with your w about the OM? And said you were going to "F--- any OWs", etc? Hmmm okay so Let me ask you this...

When you put yourself in the role of the crucified one, what happens next?

Do you manage to reach the other party, meaningfully? Or do you come off as an angry self righteous guy? IOW, do you really get anywhere? Are the victories" short lived?

I know you are not literally comparing yourself to Christ. But I want you to pick up on the underlying themes that come out in your writing...you are a victim...you are helpless....this has all "happened to you".

You've mentioned the children much less than you mention yourself and you do that measuring thing, which you thought was reasonable..

and I wrote a LONG post to you with many questions...almost none of which you hav answered.

SO---

What kind of changes are you ready to make in yourself, to be able to DO conflict resolution? No one really likes conflict, so saying you are "conflict avoidant" or "need to polish up o it", as if it's merely a unique preference, overlooks that

conflict resolution is an essential tool for adulthood.

Unless you bully someone else, OR are always caving in to them,

(which usually leads to resentment and passive aggressive behaviors later)

then lacking conflict resolution skills will kill nearly all relationships.

I think working outside the home will aid you in learning this...b/c maybe your w is the only adult you are frequently interacting with,

and you two have not succeeded in resolving conflict well.

Hey, You're not alone in this.

But I definitely feel your defensiveness. Your comment about the feedback Sandi and I are giving you as if we were punishing you, reveals a lot.

We do this for free, fyi...



I'm going to look into improving my conflict resolution skills because apparently it's an essential skill that I'm sorely lacking in. Perhaps there's a course available somewhere.

The value of learning conflict resolution cannot be over stressed...
yes there are books, and therapists...and workshops. Workshops are the most efficient ways to change your life b/c they are intense and a long weekend is like 2 years of GOOD therapy... I have attended several kinds of personal growth workshops, and legal negotiation seminars, but since you are overseas, I can't say much about what is there.

However, I'm often involved in finding solutions for people who are angry or traumatized...and

YES there ARE tools out there. You must be willing to be right and lose, and to be wrong sometimes.

It's alright to be wrong, as long as you own it, and then chamge it b/c you learned something from it.

No one learns a thing if they're always right...



I'm also interested in improving my communication skills with regard to validation.

Good....so, tell me, what would your WIFE SAY about how you communicate?

And if you have read threads around here much, you know that being honest here is key. We are not judges. We are all people who have been where you are, for whatever reason.

Embrace humility b/c this is a humbling experience...and most of us are better for it.

Try reading Crimson's thread, or Denvers...or the older one "faithful husband" (he and his wife reconciled and there was an OM somewhere in there. They're happy and it has been a few years).

Crimson, Denver and FH, all dug deep and made some scary discoveries, as did I and others...but we took charge of our flaws and we changed.



Stander had some good examples on this thread and elsewhere and I'm working on internalizing those examples. I know that will help me tremendously in my quest to achieve some degree of self-realization.

Hope I didn't put anybody off with my previous posts. I guess it's almost inevitable that you're going to hang out your dirty laundry on a BB such as this.

how else would you change or grow, if you are going to hide the truth from yourself and some strangers who want to help you save yourself, and your marriage?

Most of this if VERY hard to do...but for me, talking here was NOT the hard part...it was the easy part and the comfort I found here and with my DB coach, was a miracle.


I think it's healthy to finally, at long last, get these issues out in the open

of course

and perhaps get some hints on how to finally move past them and become the person I know I have the potential to become.

Forget the hints. Get "the manual" and become a man only a fool would leave.

That's your mission, whether she returns or not...


And maybe - just maybe - it'll make my beloved W take notice.

maybe it will. All we know is,

She won't come back unless

she believes marriage to you

can be better/different than before.

Your job for now, is to SHOW her it can be.

So let's get back to the changes YOU are making in YOU...and the GAL...