what type of c is this? is it MC or IC or co parenting?
In my "ah ha letter" to him I asked if he'd consider going to counselor to improve our communication, heal old wounds. I asked him to consider meeting therapist with me so our family can move on "in whatever form that takes". In our last 1.5 appt w/ MC (that I stormed out of) he had a lot of anger and I obviously did to. Then we stopped talking for months after that. Now we can try to get on a more friendly communication level, but there's a lot we need help getting out. It's a family therapist recommended to me, I've never met him so we'll see. I don't know if it's a good idea to do therapy with him or not, was really nervous about the plan after proposing it. Especially not knowing the variables with OW & H's intent. I worry he's just going through the motions. But even if it's a waste of time now and he's totally unwilling to play ball, it'll give me a chance to demonstrate continued changes, healing and forgiveness. As long as I don't blow up again... may have to take a xanax before...
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
OMG so now we'll worry about WHY he's NOT posting there? Wow, I hope you see what an utter waste of time and how destructive, this self inflicted pain you are engaging in is. You must stop this.For YOUR sake...you sound like you are a whirling dervish of worry and obessing and blurting things out. Take a breath. Do you have an IC?
Yes, I have IC, who tells me not to snoop. IRL, I keep my sh*t together. I celebrate what I have NOT done to snoop on H (but have wanted to) - I have never driven by where he's supposedly living, I haven't taken the spare keys I have to his car & snooped through it in the middle of the night, I have not created a fake fb account so I can spy on OW since she blocked me (think about it a lot, but I won't go there), I have not called his friends or tried to extract any info from my girls in the last month. I peak at his site out of curiosity and because I miss him but it's not an obsession and I don't talk about it with anyone IRL. I know it's the final piece of detachment I need to do and I was close, not checking as often at all, when he's basically stopped posting. Now it's a puzzle piece I can't figure out, that's all. I describe all the nutso things in my head here so I stop thinking about it IRL.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Good grief, I thank GOD I have some secrets from my h. I want some of "me" to be just mine...
Interesting perspective. That'll be tough in the trust department but I hope to get there one day.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
why do you HAVE to tell him you snooped? What's the goal?
If you want to know how honest he'll be, give him a chance to be honest.
if he isn't and that's not okay with you just TELL HIM THAT... you need honesty, and lying about drinking or still having an OW are dealbreakers...what's the downside if those things are true?
What's the downside? I guess the only downside is that we wouldn't have a relationship in the future. But we don't now anyways, so I guess nothing would change. And truthfully, I wouldn't want a friend like that either so that'll be the point I'd really be moving on.
DB coach suggested that H feels he'll always be the bad guy and that's why I'm promoting friendship to show him I can move past all the 'stuff'. Plus it's helped co-parenting so it's a win all around. I told Jodi this week that I feel there's huge barrier between what I know and what he thinks I know and I'm not sure how or if I can move past that. There's been a lot of secrets on his end. I can try to understand how he would have reacted to the situation and taken the steps he did. But wow, it's a huge blow. And that's when she suggested telling him "I know more than you think I know and I understand". If I remember her words correctly, though, she did say "you may want to tell him..." so I've been thinking of it as something I have to do but now I remember it was a suggestion of something I could do. And I wouldn't tell him I snooped. Everything I know doesn't come from snooping. At the end of the day, though, H knows me pretty well and probably assumes I know everything anyways. Yeah, maybe I'll just let it play out and give him the opportunity to be honest if he is ever inspired to do so. See? I already feel better about that choice. Thanks for challenging my thinking 25!
what type of c is this? is it MC or IC or co parenting?
In my "ah ha letter" to him I asked if he'd consider going to counselor to improve our communication, heal old wounds. I asked him to consider meeting therapist with me so our family can move on "in whatever form that takes". In our last 1.5 appt w/ MC (that I stormed out of) he had a lot of anger and I obviously did to. Then we stopped talking for months after that. Now we can try to get on a more friendly communication level, but there's a lot we need help getting out. Whatever HIS issues are, the problem with counselling in your recent past, is that you stormed out. Don't mix that up with your past. If counselling is what you want and he associates you with storming out, then....it's fair to say there are things YOU need to do here and being calm and not losing your sh1t is a biggie..right?
It's a family therapist recommended to me, I've never met him so we'll see.
I don't know if it's a good idea to do therapy with him or not, was really nervous about the plan after proposing it. what's the REAL goal? I know what you SAID...but isn't your real goal, at a minimum, to show him that you are not controlling or obsessing and that you are capable of letting go of the past? That YOU have changed...
So what do you think that requires, at a minimum? Especially not knowing the variables with OW & H's intent. why assume HE knows OR that it's written in stone and won't change next week?
I worry he's just going through the motions. But even if it's a waste of time now and he's totally unwilling to play ball, it'll give me a chance to demonstrate continued changes, healing and forgiveness. I think the MOST you can accomplish with counselling is the latter goal, of demonstrating that you can hear things you don't want to hear and NOT lose your sh1t.
And you probably should expect to hear things you don't want to hear (Unless you spend the time talking about your h.)
Which is not a good idea unless it's all positive, and would that be genuine? Or helpful?
Regardless, thank him for attending when it's over.
As long as I don't blow up again... may have to take a xanax before... do what you have to do and LISTEN well....
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
OMG so now we'll worry about WHY he's NOT posting there? Wow, I hope you see what an utter waste of time and how destructive, this self inflicted pain you are engaging in is. You must stop this.For YOUR sake...you sound like you are a whirling dervish of worry and obessing and blurting things out. Take a breath. Do you have an IC?
Yes, I have IC, who tells me not to snoop. But you do snoop anyhow...
IRL, I keep my sh*t together. um, okay...but isn't ^^this "real life"?
I celebrate what I have NOT done to snoop on H (but have wanted to) - I have never driven by where he's supposedly living, I haven't taken the spare keys I have to his car & snooped through it in the middle of the night, I have not created a fake fb account so I can spy on OW since she blocked me (think about it a lot, but I won't go there), I have not called his friends or tried to extract any info from my girls in the last month. Reb...I'm glad you are making progress in this^^^....but so you know, a lot of this is stuff I have never thought of. So yeah, it's a little extreme. I AM glad you are not repeating the behavior but you have to get a grip on what's healthy and typical, etc. A lot of that stuff is out there. So do what you have to do, to stop it. I peak at his site out of curiosity and because I miss him sorry and no offense...but I don't buy this^^...It is an obsession you are working on but it's still an obsession...
but it's not an obsession and I don't talk about it with anyone IRL. I know it's the final piece of detachment I need to do and I was close, not checking as often at all, when he's basically stopped posting. you're not checking BECAUSE he's not posting as often... Now it's a puzzle piece I can't figure out, that's all. how is that different than before?
I describe all the nutso things in my head here so I stop thinking about it IRL.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Good grief, I thank GOD I have some secrets from my h. I want some of "me" to be just mine...
Interesting perspective. That'll be tough in the trust department but I hope to get there one day.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
why do you HAVE to tell him you snooped? What's the goal?
If you want to know how honest he'll be, give him a chance to be honest.
if he isn't and that's not okay with you just TELL HIM THAT... you need honesty, and lying about drinking or still having an OW are dealbreakers...what's the downside if those things are true?
What's the downside? I guess the only downside is that we wouldn't have a relationship in the future. NO, you would not have a marriage in the future, IF him having an OW and still drinking/lying about it, are deal breakers. You'd still be co-parents...and maybe friends...
So saying that things which are actual dealbreakers ARE dealbreakers, is not the cause of a relationship ending...it's simply stating reality.
Finish this sentence please: "As long as I don't ask about the dealbreakers, I can act as if......as if what?" Act as if they are not happening? As if they are not dealbreakrs?
As if there is still hope?
There may be hope left (I think there is) but the maneuvering you are doing will risk you the most.
If you could just back off and work on yourself and NOT force things, which is what most of this seems to be to ME, even though it's more disguised than before and a bit less frantic,
to ME, it's still all about getting HIM to react differently and to come home AND also meet other conditions AND also tell you everything, etc... .
But we don't now anyways, so I guess nothing would change. And truthfully, I wouldn't want a friend like that either so that'll be the point I'd really be moving on. Meaning...if he lies to you again then you'll move on? And you want to tell him you know more than he thinks, BECAUSE...you want to stop him from lying?
Well, that's better than setting him up for failure.
DB coach suggested that H feels he'll always be the bad guy and that's why I'm promoting friendship to show him I can move past all the 'stuff'. Plus it's helped co-parenting so it's a win all around. Only if you really were just promoting friendship and not expecting or pushing for more. You can secretly hope SOMEDAY down the road, for more...but I really hope you can keep those expectations reasonable at this time and in the near future, like for at least 6 months.
I told Jodi this week that I feel there's huge barrier between what I know and what he thinks I know and I'm not sure how or if I can move past that. Meaning you want him to tell you, or what? What is there to "move past"?
There's been a lot of secrets on his end. I can try to understand how he would have reacted to the situation and taken the steps he did. But wow, it's a huge blow. giving a spouse deceitful behavior is wrong, I agree. I know it hurts.
BUT giving your spouse a reason to hide things b/c of your prior over reactions, or temper, or storming out b/c you don't like words being said to you or about you, might well create the apparent "need" to deceive...
So let's not go there either...you have to own your role in that too.
And that's when she suggested telling him "I know more than you think I know and I understand". you did not say the second clause in your post if I recall correctly. If you say anything about knowing more, than you must add the part about how you also understand.
I'd be surprised if he suddenly opens up in full at that moment. He'll wonder how you know and I'd be shocked if he did not suspect you of major snooping. He may know more about you than you think he knows...
If I remember her words correctly, though, she did say "you may want to tell him..." I think that is so that you don't set him up for failure in a "test"...especially a test you won't want to enforce. Meaning, you set him up to prove he's lying and then....then what? You prove he's a loser and a liar and---- that does what to move you closer to your goal?
If I thought you were going to change your course of action based on what you discovered, I would say "go ahead and snoop".
But I feel as if you are not in near ready to say good bye (which is fine) so, no matter what you discover, so it will make no difference in how you proceed. So why snoop?
You'll still want counselling with him, you'll still hope for change from HIM, and so...why snoop?
I mean as of NOW, even if he's still drinking, and still seeing OW, so what? What would that change?
And if you learned that he was sober and NOT seeing OW, but did not want to come home, what would change? Again, why snoop? (Please don't say "just curious"...)
so I've been thinking of it as something I have to do but now I remember it was a suggestion of something I could do. And I wouldn't tell him I snooped. Everything I know doesn't come from snooping. At the end of the day, though, H knows me pretty well and probably assumes I know everything anyways. Yeah, maybe I'll just let it play out and give him the opportunity to be honest if he is ever inspired to do so. See? I already feel better about that choice. Thanks for challenging my thinking 25!
good luck!!
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
if anything I say conflicts with your DB coach, by all means follow THEIR advice.
My DB coach was a Godsend to me.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
H offered to help get lawn furniture out for upcoming d17 bday party and he keeps changing the days due to his work schedule. Doesn't matter to me, I'm just going with whatever works for him. Now he wants to do it on a day that I have an appointment at 6pm so I asked him what time he wanted to come over because I can help after work but before 6pm. He replies that he'll do it after kids get out of school & will put furniture in the usual places, or I can leave him a diagram.
This is probably a stupid question, but he doesn't want my help? I feel bad for letting him do it all on his own. Just let him do all the work?
Stop controlling...what is the big deal if the lawn furniture is not exactly where it needs to be...allow him to do it alone...is this opposite of what you usually would have done?
Also I need to take the advice I just gave you in a lot of my own situations too
I'm not controlling this lawn furniture bs. I don't care where it is placed. I know H has felt unappreciated working a heavy schedule in the past because I always critized him being gone so much. So I don't want him to feel unappreciated by having to do all the work by himself. I offered my help and he rebuffed it. So in light of showing appreciation and praising the small things, I was questioning whether I should be supportive and show up anyways to help. Or if that would push him away further since he stated he didn't need my help.
btw, I replied 'that's great. thanks so much for helping.'
We normally would have done this work together so it's not really a 180 deal. Especially since he's resented the other things he's had to do around the house by himself.
Still wondering if I should show up to physically help or not. I'm thinking it may make him feel awkward for some reason. Or maybe it's more important to show up & help to prove that I WON'T make it awkward...
Maybe I'll just get sick and stay in bed all that day. Too much thinking...
I think it is good you offered your help...seems like the decided to come and do it when you would not be there also...maybe when he does do it praise him for the good job he has done and that you approve of his decisions on where to put things...
I think your reply was great too...
in some of the things I have been reading and listening too...when men do things alone it produces testosteron, when doing it together produces female hormones...men need testors. so that they can relieve stress...so it is better sometimes that they accomplish things on their own to help with stress reduction, also with less pressure from wife on when and how to get it done...
Don;t know if this applies to your sitch or now...
Whatever HIS issues are, the problem with counselling in your recent past, is that you stormed out. Don't mix that up with your past.
I know that's going to be a challenge for me but I can do it. I did apologize in my letter to him for storming out. It's been a long road but I think I needed this time to grow and learn. I couldn't have done any differently then because my feelings were too raw. I've learned a lot since then on how not to be at the mercy of my feelings. It's a daily challenge but awareness has really helped my everyday life.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
what's the REAL goal? I know what you SAID...but isn't your real goal, at a minimum, to show him that you are not controlling or obsessing and that you are capable of letting go of the past? That YOU have changed...
So what do you think that requires, at a minimum?
In many ways it seems to me that letting go of the past is the ultimate goal. That seems like the biggest hurdle for me to get over. But if we can let go of the past we could at least have a comfortable R in the future, together or not. Any progress will require, at a minimum, for me to control my emotions and anger. Be an actor, not a reactor.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I think the MOST you can accomplish with counselling is the latter goal, of demonstrating that you can hear things you don't want to hear and NOT lose your sh1t.
And you probably should expect to hear things you don't want to hear (Unless you spend the time talking about your h.)
I lost my cool with our last attempt at counseling because it was the same week I found out about OW and there were a lot of horrible emotions during that time. And because I was consumed with reactions and anger. But the catalyst was our terrible counselor. We met one time and at the end of that session she looked at me, then looked at him, then looked at me again and said "he's done! he's done!". I don't think she was pro-marriage (I didn't know to ask these kinds of questions before making an appointment). She asked him nothing about his commitment or was he willing to take a break to work on things. I don't know that things could have gone any other way and the time has been a blessing to me personally. But I think it's aided in my H's disconnection and the time he lost with his kids (his choice) is sad.
But yeah, I'm reading Hold Me Tight now (ouch!) and am eager to hear any expression, even anger. It will be tough but I think I'm prepared - no expectations, be curious & not pushy.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Reb...I'm glad you are making progress in this^^^....but so you know, a lot of this is stuff I have never thought of. So yeah, it's a little extreme
This made me laugh a little! You're probably right, but these are just the LEGAL things I think about! There's another level of nasty I can't even admit out loud. I can't be the only scorned woman to have spy/revenge fantasies? But yes, it takes concentration away from myself and is unhealthy. I get it.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
u're not checking BECAUSE he's not posting as often...
Now it's a puzzle piece I can't figure out, that's all.
how is that different than before?
This made me think of something what I never admitted or even thought twice about! H's posted on this site since 2010. A lot. And I've looked at his posts since 2010. He didn't used to mind. It made me feel closer to him because he was gone all the time. In the early days, we'd joke about the stuff on there. I don't think he cared or maybe he didn't even care enough to know I was reading it or not. I didn't want to be a registered user, but sometimes there was funny stuff on there and like I said, I was alone in our R a lot.
Then he changed his username for whatever reason (starting to disconnect probably) quite awhile ago but I still read it & I doubt he ever knew that. He never tried to hide his site viewing, the password was (and still is) saved on my computer. He was one of those - always walk away from the computer with the screen left up - people. There was also a lot of offensive material on there that I was outspokenly critical of so he probably didn't think I'd continue viewing. Not an excuse, but it's just not that far off for me to continue looking. It took a dangerous turn when it turned into me gathering intel on H. But not going the extra steps to pursue active spying is a big step for me. I know, sounds like I'm justifying. I'm getting there...
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Finish this sentence please: "As long as I don't ask about the dealbreakers, I can act as if......as if what?" Act as if they are not happening? As if they are not dealbreakrs?
As if there is still hope?
There may be hope left (I think there is) but the maneuvering you are doing will risk you the most.
Ding ding ding! It's the hope. If I don't ask about the dealbreakers I can still have hope. Better yet, if I find out about the deabreakers before having to ask him directly, I can guard my heart and let go of hope without having to be hurt directly by him again. This explains my snooping. I don't want to give up hope yet. But I also don't want to be a fool and keep hope where there is none.
How do we deal with this? I know MWD says believe in miracles and never let go of hope. But it's really defeating! And if I'm worried about being a fool, I still have a lot of pride wrapped up in the M. Admitting failure has always been hard for me. And in that regard it feels like I've come SO FAR. Far enough for him to see positive changes and the fact that I like myself much better this way. But still a long ways to go.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
You'll still want counselling with him, you'll still hope for change from HIM, and so...why snoop?
I mean as of NOW, even if he's still drinking, and still seeing OW, so what? What would that change?
And if you learned that he was sober and NOT seeing OW, but did not want to come home, what would change? Again, why snoop? (Please don't say "just curious"...)
I'm wishy-washy on this. I can honestly say that I don't want a R with him as he was when he left. But I don't know what I would do in scenario A, B or C. I know I'd like to say I'm done, but that's related to pride and feels like a reaction. So more working on myself until I feel equipped to make a decision.
All of this really pushes my buttons in a negative way. I think it has a lot to do with pride/humility. I get the 'do you want to be right, or do you want your marriage'. I'm trying to dismantle the pride and rebuild myself without needing his approval or input in any way. But it still hurts! And makes me question all interactions.
Case in point, had Mud Run yesterday. H had plans with D15 but cancelled when he got to house to pick her up because he was sick. He texted later in day about plans for kids at end of week and I replied and asked how he was feeling. No answer. And no 'how was your run?'. Which is fine - he doesn't want that type of R right now, but it just hurts & feels off because the friendship is really one sided. Then that leads to him implying he doesn't want help with lawn furniture etc... I'm just going to step way back for now. It's my only safety for now. My expectations are getting the best of me this week.
Yep, concentrating on myself again. I've learned a lot recently and it only highlights the amount of work - by both of us - that would be needed for a healthy R. Maybe I'm more cautious after learning all this than I was before. It's nice to think that shared history and love will get your through the hard times but I have a much more realistic perspective on that now. Or today, anyways... kind of feel pessimistic today I guess.
I appreciate your feedback 25. Azguy, I'm grateful for the book recommendation. It's another powerful book. Thank you
This explains my snooping. I don't want to give up hope yet. But I also don't want to be a fool and keep hope where there is none.