Is there light at the end of the tunnel Part 1?

[AnotherStander]

I try to be the fix it guy and find solutions but most of the time, that’s not what people are looking for.

Right. That's the way most of us guys are wired. Someone gives us a problem, we offer solutions. Heck, that is EXACTLY why I'm good at my job, when people come to me and express problems they are having they specifically EXPECT a solution! So it was extremely difficult for me to learn how to validate and not "fix".

I guess I am still in a fantasy land of where each person shared their perspective. But that’s not where we are.

Correct, that's not where you are right -now-. If and when you reconcile then it will be time to discuss YOUR perspective and issues too. But during the DB phase when your marriage is a house of cards and one puff of air away from collapsing you've got to set aside her issues and focus completely on yours.

Now this is hard to do because I have many issues with W that have affected me deeply but I guess since she is the one trying to leave I have to suck it up for now.

Yup!

Very hard to do and sometimes when I feel like I am being beat up and I can’t bring the issues I have with her up, I ask myself is this all worth it?

Yes it's hard, many of us will readily tell you that DB'ing is the most difficult thing we've ever done in our lives. It would be quicker, easier and probably less painful to just call it quits, push forward with D and get on with life. That is in fact what most people in our position do.

And sometimes I worry even if there is a possibility of reconciling, would W be will to work on the issues with me or not.

When most DB'ers get to the point of reconciliation, one of the criteria they state to their WAS is the WAS must be willing to work on those issues. If the WAS isn't willing to put forth that effort, then reconciliation can't effectively happen. That's a long way out for you, I just mention it so that you know that this isn't about ignoring problems like that, it's about postponing them while you work on yourself.

Regarding MC, I agree with the others that you might want to drop it. Often when a WAS is one foot out the door, they're just looking for validation that they're doing the right thing. My W sat in MC barely saying a word. Finally after several sessions the C said "I don't see any progress being made, perhaps a separation is in order." Suddenly my W perked up and became totally involved in the session. She was FINALLY hearing what SHE wanted to hear!! She couldn't agree with the C faster! YES, a S, what a fantastic idea!! Frankly I think it's better to have no MC at all because MC is just a form of pressure to the WAS at a time when they want no pressure.

[Bel123]

You mentioned finding your own self-confidence again....what are you doing on that front? Have you read Married Man's Sex Primer? I think it's primary focus is finding that swagger again...worth the read.

I haven't read the book yet but I did look at the reviews last night. I will check it out at the store this weekend. I am trying to gain it back by working out and feeling nicer about my physical self. Which in turn will get my mind in a better place of knowing with or without W, I will be ok. I also know that there is the mental element to it as well and that’s where the reading and the knowing the part I played the problem.

What things about yourself are you looking at? What do you want to change? And I'm not talking actions (working out, smoking, etc), I'm talking about the way you think.

Passive aggressiveness.
I would like to accept people for who they are. Especially for those close to me since they feel I push my opinion on them (I think I am just sharing my opinion but I think they feel like I am pushing it on them)
Get the self-esteem back
Insecurity which is part of the self-esteem issue
Controlling which usually comes out when I am insecure
Judging which I am not sure how it ties in and I never thought I was judgmental but apparently I am according to some of the tests and I can see how people can sometimes see that.

These are some of the things I am looking at and that I don’t like about myself.

[Bel123]

Mach1- the way you put things into perspective and your wisdom always puts me at ease. And funny too with the dress code comment

Time and space will allow then to do away with a lot of that anger. As long as YOU don't perpetuate it, and provoke it into attending other events in your life.

I am staying away from it and I have seen how much small actions or negative thoughts can move me in a way I say or do something that have provoked it. Like snooping and thinking whatever I find, I can keep it to myself and not let it affect me on how I interact with W. That has been false ALL of the time. I have been so emotionally vested, was not able to just keep it inside. Even if I did not confront her, it came out on how I interacted with her.

Working on you, will allow you to accept your part in the failure of the relationship, and allow you to own your truth.

I know I have been saying I know my failures in the relationship but I am sure there are many I have not realized and hope I can see then as I grow as a person and be able to address them in a positive way.

What would you say, not her, was YOUR biggest deficiency in the Marriage ???
Something that YOU didn't like about your role ???

My biggest deficiency would be at some point I got too comfortable about where I was in life. I told myself I have a good job, got a house, a great W, I am health so I went on cruise control. I also started taking things for granted. I stopped living life the way I did before as in keeping up with friends, family and traveling and live life. I gravitated to W's friends and depended on her for activity planning and things like that. I also made it hard on her when she planned some things where it usually takes me a while to get with a vacation plan and things like that. My focus was about work and getting ahead and sort of dropped the ball about the relationship. I also was not able to share with her my desire bring my daughter to live with us from early on.

[Bel123]

Bel,
I have a question...
In your signature, you say that you have been together for 13 years, yet you have a 9 year old daughter, separate from your W, and this has been an issue for you...
What are the details of this?

Cat… this is going to be a long one 
After a couple of years of being together we were having our ups and downs and I think she got bored. She started hanging out with this one guy and I saw that he liked her so I told her of what I thought. She denied it. She was telling me she was at one place but other people were telling me she was elsewhere. So she felt pressured and broke off our relationship. She said she wasn’t sleeping with the guy. Even though we were broken up, we were still sleeping together. I snooped and found an email from her to her sister saying she slept with him. I confronted her about it and she said she was sorry. Months later we worked on it and go back together. A couple of years later I while we were still together I cheated and slept with a woman with protection. She got pregnant. She wasn't sure if it was mine but there was a possibility. I told my now W (GF then). It devastated her because she said she thought we were in a good place. I told her that it was nothing she did but my own fault and that I still loved her even if my action did not show it. I told her I will be there for my child if it was mine but I still wanted to be with her. We got back together. Months later my D was born and I did the DNA test and she was mine. We got engaged the same year and got married the following year. My actions have always been a source of shame for me but that does not stop me from being a good father to my D. More so since D has been with her GPs as I did not get along well with D’s mother because she was not taking care of D the way she should have. D's mother was not fit so D has been living with her GPs for over 5 years now. I visit regularly and talk on the phone with her. Because I did not want to hurt my W with the thought of what I did, I did not involve her in a lot of my communication with D. I don't believe I have fully forgiven myself for what I did. I did invite W to visit D with me a few times but she didn't want to. Years before my S was born we did talk about the future and I told her that I would like to bring D to live with us since that would be a better situation for her even though the GPs are great. She said once we have a child and are ready we can talk about it.

I don’t think we have worked out our own issue of the past and all we did was sweep them under the rug. It all started to bubble up. Insecurities from both sides pop up and instead of reassuring each other, we go further and further away from each other. I hoped she has accepted my D but I don't believe she has and that makes things very difficult. My view of it was I have told her before knowing my D was mine and she said she has forgiven me. But deep down inside I don’t think she has. And I didn't make it any easier because I was shielding W from the past because we just didn't talk that much about it. Now I believe I was doing it for myself as well. This made it more and more difficult as time passed.

When we first started going to MC and was asked what I wanted, bringing D to live with us was one of the things. Even though W did not say no, I felt she didn't from her actions and I told her with you or without you I want to bring D here. By that time we already have not been in good terms for a year and we were distant from each other. The one thing W said that I did not conceder was what if staying with GPs is best for D. I honestly did not think of it that way and now, even though I am saying this is what I want, it would be after exploring the options and talking to D before bringing her out.

Usually when I get my mind in an emotional state I don't think right. What I saw was W wanting to best for S but not for my D. Thats a big thing I have to work on is forgiving myself and letting go of the guilt and be a better person. Also not always assume W has an agenda of not wanting D here. Even if W has or hasn't forgiven me, it should not let me stop from being the person I want to become. I know I have great qualities as a person and I want get more of those qualities and get rid of the bad ones.

I honestly don't know if this M can work with all its baggage. I hope it can and I know if it is meant to be then it would. I am getting to the point where I do understand if W doesn't want to stay. Sometimes when I look back I wonder why would she want to stay and it makes me sad to think of what I have put W through.

[Breakdown]

Bel, I think that is extremely important stuff as I have a similar sitch. My D15 from a prior relationship was born only a month after my W and I got married. My W was always good to her, but there were some significant issues related to it:

1) It took me a long time to forgive myself. I too had a ton of shame and guilt. I never wanted to bring a child into the world out of wedlock, but not only did I do that, I hurt the woman I love. That guilt turned into some self punishing behavior in that I never felt like I deserved my W, and actually pushed her away from me in a lot of ways.

2) My W still has some deep deep resentment related to this. At the time, she wasn't drawing any hard lines, but I still hear about it during arguments, even 15 years later.

I will say, I think you have done wrong by keeping your W excluded from this part of your life. Your D is important, your W is important...why would you keep them separate? Yes, it's a reminder of a mistake, but you both have to forgive you and do what is best moving forward. Your D did nothing wrong...she shouldn't be punished. You need to start doing what is best for YOU and YOUR D.

I honestly don't know if this M can work with all its baggage.

I think that's a common mistake WAS make. The truth of it is that we all have baggage, in one form or another. Changing one set of bags for another doesn't fix it....working thru the issues does.

Sometimes when I look back I wonder why would she want to stay and it makes me sad to think of what I have put W through.

I think some of that is good, as it can help us face our demons and make changes. But I also think it's important to not put all the blame on yourself for where your M is. Someone recently said "take 100% of the blame for your 50% of the M" and I think that's a good way to think about it.

[Bel123]

Regarding MC, I agree with the others that you might want to drop it. Often when a WAS is one foot out the door, they're just looking for validation that they're doing the right thing. My W sat in MC barely saying a word. Finally after several sessions the C said "I don't see any progress being made, perhaps a separation is in order." Suddenly my W perked up and became totally involved in the session. She was FINALLY hearing what SHE wanted to hear!! She couldn't agree with the C faster! YES, a S, what a fantastic idea!! Frankly I think it's better to have no MC at all because MC is just a form of pressure to the WAS at a time when they want no pressure.

AS... I am starting to think that way as well. Most of the time we were in MC, especially with the latest one, the MC brings up a lot of things and W feels like she is being picked on. She confronted her about lying and some other things so she hated going there. She even said she feels like she is walking in to her execution every time she came. I was feeling like anytime in there she would just shut down and say it is over. With this last go I am hoping she will agree in on working on our own self and see if we are compatible. The MC did ask me though why do I want to stay and what makes me think that W will ever work on it since in no terms did she say that. It seems they want to push for D or S if both are not willing to work on it. And since I was the one pushing W to come to a decision (before knowing about DBing) how do I go back and say take some more time to think about it. Even W has said before how I was the one asking for a decision and now I am ok with limbo. I have told her though a few sessions ago that if I am her source of unhappiness, she can leave and I will not stand in her way.

So tell me AS, how did you handle it when W sparked up for the S?

My W said that as well about MC being pressure. She is the one that suggested this the current one but the current one was on point. She brought out the good in me and broke down all our communication and had us clarify. MC told us that W does not receive any of the good messages. Even the good positive messages were being blocked by W and it is impossible to work on M if she does not accept those messages.

[AnotherStander]

So tell me AS, how did you handle it when W sparked up for the S?

By then I had read Dobson's Love Must Be Tough and of course DR. So I knew what to say. It went something like this:

"W, I want you to stay here with me and work on the M. But I hear you saying that separation is what it will take for you to be happy, and above all I want you to be happy. So I support your decision, and will help you in any way I can."

The idea is not to agree or disagree, but just to let them know that you support them in THEIR decision, whatever that decision may be.

MC told us that W does not receive any of the good messages. Even the good positive messages were being blocked by W and it is impossible to work on M if she does not accept those messages.

That's pretty typical. The WAS is only there so they can check it off their list of "been there, tried that". They're not remotely interested in actually working on the M. That's why MC is such a bad idea. MC has value when the M is still together but the spouses may be having problems. And it has value when both parties are willing to reconcile. But when one is a WAS with one foot out the door, MC just doesn't work.

[Bel123]

Breakdown, both your points of feeling shame/guilt and feeling not deserving of W as well as W bringing it up years later is defiantly at play in my stich. I am learning to forgive myself and learning how to be a better father for both of my kids. I am learning from my S when I didn’t learn from my D since she was not close by. With my S I am fully involved and feel bad I wasn’t with my D. For it being such a long distance between my D and I, I do think I am a involved father. I didn’t think I was but GPs say that and how I do care about whats going on in her life. That’s a moral boost for sure.

W thinks all if not most of the problems she has with including depression is due to me and our relationship. She also said her GM had depression as well and so do others in her family so I am not sure how she make me the reason but I didn’t disagree with her, I validated and said yeah I can see how things have been and that can make things difficult.

I am owning up to 100% of the 50% LOL. I am owning it and I am not even talking about her 50% to her as I know she is not ready to hear it. She always hates when I "spread the blame". How hard it is to sit there and take it but hey DBing aint easy right?

[Bel123]

AS,

I have been trying to say something like that and had the opportunity this evening. Hopefully I handled it right. Let me know what you think.

[Bel123]

First M talk without MC in 3 months.. so its along one

So this evening was interesting one. W came to the living room (where I sleep) while I was watching TV and sat down and said “so how does it feel to get fired from MC”. She is talking about the email from the MC that said until we are ready to work on the M or ready to split, there is not much she can do for us. Also, for us to work with our IC and see if we want to MC with a selected path. I told her that was sort of funny and that the MC wants to push it one way or another but if we (meaning her) is not ready then it is not useful.

She said there was something concrete she wanted to talk about. She said seeing me in sleeping on the couch is no good for either of us and that she feels bad seeing me sleep in the living room. That I should think about either making the living room my own space (not a common space), move to the basement, or get my own place. My clothes are still in the bed room and I usually get it out right after getting my son to sleep. My old self would have told her off and say she should feel lucky that I even left the room and that I will sleep where ever. I did say though that “this IS my house as well”. I told her I am sleeping here because I choose to and that if I wanted to move out, I would have. I was thinking about the situation when she kept asking me what I thought. I told her I am digesting it all in.

She mentioned how if we continue this way, it will get tough and we will be fighting. She said us spending time with S has been great and how other times are stressful for her. I told her I understand where she is coming from and that I am giving her space and not asking to hangout or talk about R. she said she agrees but she is still in stress most of the time. She said she doesn’t want to feel like jumping off the bridge. I told her that is not a good feeling and that I am sorry she feels that that. I don’t want to be your cause of unhappiness.

We talked some more about the M (her leading) and how we are putting up a front to the outside world of being happy. I told her I am not putting a happy face. She hasn’t told her parents about it and she was teary eyes and how she hasn’t even told them I have a D. she said she told me that I should tell them a long time ago but I honestly don’t remember. My parents and friends know so I was waiting for her to tell them. She was trying to figure out how to tell them so I told her that I will talk to her mother about it and let her know. She said how her mother will be mad at her for keeping it from her for so long. She said she didn’t tell them because she know how her mother would have not accepted me if she know. I told her that I have been ashamed and guilty for such a long time and that I have forgiven myself for it. I told her that her mother would understand. So tomorrow is when I will talk to MIL.

We talk some more about MC and I told her it was good and bad. It was good because I saw her point of it and she was venerable and able to share the things I never know but it was bad because it was so concentrated and how bad she was feeling in there. I told her that I don’t think we are ready for MC as we’d have to be ready to work things out. She asked if I am saying she is the one not ready to work things out. I told her we are both working on our own issues in IC and it is not helpful to work on it all at the same time. She asked me if I am ready to go to MC and I told her I don’t think it is best for our situation right now. She kept trying to push me into answer why I am not ready and I told her the same thing again.. it had its goods and bads but I don’t think we are there yet.
We talked about IC and how her IC and MC said they thing she has depression. I told her that I thought that way as well. She also said that I might have as well, I agreed and said I was talking about that to IC. She said hers has been for the last two years (during pregnancy was really bad). She is still putting all of it in the M and I did not agree or disagree with her. I said that sometimes M brings out things we had before in us. So I had to backtrack since when I speak in general terms she things I am talking about her. Sometimes I am but other time I am talking about myself. I told her for me there are things that I have to work on to figure out where it all comes from and how it has affected me and as well as the relationship. I told her I am not speaking for her and I am speaking for myself. I will let you tell me what you want to tell me and now assume things. We also talked about how we sort of lost our own self in the M and when the M went bad how we felt lost.

I did ask what she planned (didn’t ask if she wanted separation or divorce or anything) and she said doesn’t know but what we have now is not working and the living situation of me in the living room is painful for her. She also dropped “while we are talking about shitty subjects, I don’t see myself wanting to sleep with you again” (ouch that hurt), she said that I made her feel unwanted and unattractive and have hurt her so bad. I didn’t defend myself since I have heard this so many time in MC. I told her I feel bad she felt that way and wished she told me she felt that way before. She said that is something she has to deal with and knows it is not fair for me to keep waiting.

We talked some more about our S and how we hope he will turn out with fewer issues than us. I told her I hope he will be able to figure things up faster unlike me about feelings, emotion and how to express them. She said I wish I could tell her what I was thinking. I told her I am taking it all in and if she has a question to ask me.

So what am I to do here….. I don’t want to move out as financially as well as time with S will be cut. The basement would suck but I don’t like the living room either.

As far as my next step I don’t know. I am glad I did not bring up the OM. Bringing him up will have me flip out and because she lies about it. I know he is not the cause of the M issue but his presence does not help the situation. I will continue to 180 and GAL. I have noticed that even though I am 180 and I am sure W sees it, I need to be more happier. I need to be more positive for myself. I know I have hope of the M working out but I need to be more positive even if it does not. Some of these conversations are so painful and hurtful to sit through but I am very proud of myself for not defending myself or blaming her for any of it. I don’t have to agree with everything but her feelings are her feelings regardless of being a WAW or MLC or OM. All that is the reality now. All I can do is continue to improve myself for me and my kids.

Without these forums, I don’t know if I would have been able to deal with this situation so thanks to you all and your stories that inspire and uplift even if what we want does not always happen.