Seriously? And you didn't think it was important to mention it here? What was her reasoning? What did you do?
"She gave me a shopping list, presumably written on purpose on the back of a letter to the OM, which is how I found out."
That's pretty obvious it was a call for you to DO SOMETHING. That she wanted you to FEEL something. What did you do?
"I confronted her, and she said it is over. Do not remember details."
This shows how out of touch you are about your feelings. How can you not remember? Didn't it ring any bells to get your @$$ in gear and do something? How was it resolved or did you just sweep it under the rug again? What did SHE want?
"She also separated from me while we lived in Germany, getting her own room for a while, twice."
Why?
"I was invited over frequently."
And what happened during those times? Did you have sex? Did you talk about any intimacy or relationship issues? Or did you just talk about which flowers to trim?
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I did talk about it here, can dig it up if you like. Yes, it was a call to do something. The room I am sleeping in tonight has a picture of a dissatisfied woman there, another message. Anna Karenina was a message. My memory in general is lousy, for most things. It was 'resolved' because it was over, but I understand that it wasn't really, that the root cause was still not fixed and it still is not fixed. Separate rooms - she wanted space and I gave it to her. Yes, we had sex. I'd get good baked stuff in the morning for a romantic breakfast. Creating intimacy and sharing emotionally is something I and we (W and I) are not good at.
L
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
I don't remember about the moving back - it was 20 years ago - we probably talked about it though - both times were relatively short, maybe 6 months or so. I remember she said she needed space (she was an American student at a German university and had a hard time initially).
No, no info about the affair. It was always only in Germany, and so could only happen on a few business trips. I had the kids up here. I still have her SMSs from back then - could dig them up if you like. She would SMS us every day.
Gotta go get son at airport. Thx - L
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
That doesn't make any sense. So you just took the A as over and she didn't bring anything up and that was that?
That's not true. Now that I recall your situation (I counsel so many on here, sometimes I lose track) your W TOLD you at the time that she needed a MAN.
Why didn't you take her up at that point?
Have fun with your son.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Luke, how did you leave the conversation of sleeping in the master bedroom after she expressed her feelings? You said you thought you should retreat, but did you respond to her when she blew up about her feelings?
I think it's important to point out something. Apparently, you did not pick up on the real message in what she said. Bond spotted it immediately. After his suggestion of an apology, you struggled with writing the letter b/c you still don't quite "get it". You were trying to say what you thought Bond pointed out. But it didn't sound quite right b/c you weren't really feeling it.
I do believe that the source to much of the problems has been discovered, if you can truly be open to grasping the importance of it. As pointed out by you, it has led to this point. However, you need to really work hard to "get it", or all is lost.
And, you seem to have a problem knowing how to balance things. Do you know what I mean?
(Btw, I'm rather proud of you for backing up and saying that you weren't a bad father and that you did help around the home & with the kids. Maybe you can stand up for yourself after all. )
Okay back to your W. I think a lot of men relate being good H's with being good providers. Many men have to travel in their line of work. But this is where I see your problem.....you have trouble expressing your feelings to your W. you have problems addressing her feelings. The longer the tension grew in the MR, the more you avoided those issues. I remember when Bond was encouraging you to call, send flowers, or something......b/c you were so out of touch with her and your children, and it seemed you were on the edge of eliminating any closeness to other people. If I remember correctly, you admitted you felt awkward. So, I think I'm safe in saying that neither of you were emotionally there for each other.
It seems your love language is giving gifts b/c that's what you do to show your love. Do you know what her love language is? If you have not read the book, I encourage you to do so, ASAP.
I don't know of any woman who doesn't have emotional needs. The type conversations you've described having with your W, leaves me wondering if you believe she has such a need. She does, Luke, and if you don't fill those emotional needs, she will turn to another man, or men, to do it.
What you see as an angry, mean behaving W, is really a person crying out to you. I agree that she's not doing it nicely. But that is how women become when they don't have their needs met.
Resentment.......and tons of it, has killed any joy in your M. She's been wanting to see passion at work in you.....somewhere! She tries to make you mad, she is rude, disrespectful, cold, and. bossy (just to name a few).......and she still can't get anything out of you except meek, polite, submission. But, I have discussed that with you before, so I'll try not to keep repeating myself.
My suggestion about an apology is to first wait until you really understand why & what you are telling her...and not do it just b/c we tell you., ok? When you start to put words to that letter, think of how she "felt" when you were gone away, and when she didn't hear from you asking her questions about her day and how she "felt" about.......whatever she might have told you. Think of how she must have felt if you didn't have an intimate discussion with her. You know how you long for a physical intimacy, so think of her needing an emotional intimacy. Even if you see her as a very logical person who is unemotional and has a difficult time expressing herself with affections or emotions.......she still has the needs. You want to save the M, so you will need to take responsility to start this process. I say process b/c you have to learn as you go......applying what you learn and continue doing what worked well.
When men have emotional intimacy with the W, she usually is more than happy for him to share her bed.
I know you are excited about your S coming home. Don't be afraid to show him how much you love him. One way to break the awkwardness is practice!
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
and thank you for your posts. To answer your questions:
o after she became emotional when I said we need to do something about the sleeping arrangements, I saw her hurt and anger, and (I think) validated it by not pushing the point (demanding more, as it were), hanging my head, and being silent (I had been told not to escalate things).
o yes, I know what you mean by having a hard time to "get it", but am not sure where it leads action-wise, and exactly how I get it and know when I have gotten it.
o yes, I have a problem balancing things - W complains that I have no common sense sometimes (though not recently).
o I think my wife has strong emotional needs, particularly since I think she identifies with Anna Karenina (good movie, btw), which was her way of sending yet another message. She was reading a book a while ago called "wayward girls and wicked women", subversive tales of women.
o oh no, W is very expressive and demonstrative, not at all a purely rational person. She'll play bite your arm (or my D's now) when she feels like it, rub her bottom on you (at least she used to on me), do foolish seeming things... She seems so much more developed on this front than I am. She asked me way early in our relationship what I thought of her ML with me and I replied that she was 'carnal', by which I meant really in her body and comfortable with it.
o starting the emotional intimacy process, yes, but how? I think communication of any sort, preferably not just facts and the weather, is good... but not sure how to continue the opening process. This is typically where I feel out of my depth in friendships. I also don't want to push her, at all, on this -.
o am spending time with S - great to have him here - I told him that he was the apple of my eye when I left him at school in Scotland (and had to go back to Sweden).
o thanks, sandi, for putting your finger on my LL - that was a real bull's eye, as it is exactly how I react when I want to express my love. Will read LL book asap - hope it is on Kindle.
I have been an unobservant, unreactive, unchanging dumbell - she has been telling me what she wants so many times and I do nothing.
Yesterday, for example, when I went out to get firewood (it was in the teens here last night), she asked "I hope you are not heading out to get some herbs?" (ha ha, in this frozen wasteland).
Realization: my W likes humor (duh) and I should be humorous back! She is showing me the way, again, and now I will make a point of being humorous back, and lighten things. Cunningham says this!
She also has body language - with the typical arms crossed body block interpretable as 'I am closed - do not approach'. She is sending signals here too - and I need to pay attention.
She has an act language - for example, we just finished lunch. When she is closed off, she puts her own plate in the dishwasher; when she is more open, like today, she handed it to me to put in.
So I made the executive decision that breakfast would be waffles this morning and did so and it was good.
Realization - encroach on her body space sometimes, confidently, when working together in the kitchen. It is assertive and manly.
W was trying out a new Chopin piece on the piano when I came back from dropping D off at violin, and she had planted tomato seeds also, both good things.
I really need to be on the ball here - Mr. Bond, thanks again for the Cunningham recommendation - there are goals there -
She would not like, I think, the idea of EE, as deeply opening to others and thereby showing weakness (her interpretation) or overtly needing others is not her way, at least I have not seen it to be so. I am not planning to tell her what I am doing, but the weekly group meetings (by Skype in my case) may be a problem. Have to think how to coordinate this. Not doing EE would be a mistake, I think, though, as I have a feeling it can help me.
I have a DB coaching session on Monday. Do you have any recommendations for what to address?
How to 'get it'?
Hope you are both having a good Saturday - thanks -
L (maybe cool hand someday)
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Oh, I forgot: two ideas - 1) grow a beard while in the States and 2) invite her to a seance. An apparently well known medium (Jeff Jones) is coming to town - it sounds like hokey fun.
L
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Oh, the car comes Tuesday. Not sure if she will like it - maybe will see it as a concrete symbol of my economically oppressing her? Not sure how to handle this. She said she wanted nothing to do with it.
On the other hand, it increases our radius of action a lot - to go winter hiking, for example.
L
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
