maybe its different where you are. This is the information I have found about Alanon here.
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Alanon information
If you’re not familiar with a program called “Alanon” and you are living with someone suffering from an addiction to alcohol, then this article may be important for you to read. Alanon is a non-profit international organization that utilizes a 12 step program similar to the one made famous by AA. This is a program created specifically for adults who are dealing with a family member or spouse who is battling alcoholism .
(bold was my emphasis)
I am not at all comfortable with pursuing this route. My H is not a substance abuser or addict. I don't know how to more plainly say that I do not feel I belong in this setting.
I'm guessing you followed, or someone you love, followed this route and were helped by it. I am glad that this service is there and I know it helps many people.
Thanks for checking in.
Me 46 H 56 M 22 yrs S22, D20, Twin Ss18
You teach people how to treat you by what you allow. What you stop. And what you reinforce. ~~~~~~~ A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
You do have a family member, your brother. You do exhibit patters of behavior associated with living with addicts. A few days ago your mind was open, now it is closed. Try a beginner's mind.
P.S. There may be other groups for co-dependents more relevant to your sitch with H, such as codependents of sex or love addicts as well. Again, the particular addiction is not that big of a deal as the focus is on the co-dependent.
And check out an Alanon book, The Courage To Change. A friend who is in Alanon gave this book to me when I was going through my divorce, and even though my ex doesn't have any substance abuse problems, much of it was surprisingly useful.
My fear? I wouldn't call it that, but if you want to call it that, fine.
I will be with people who's loved ones have tangible addictions. My experiences are on the very low end of the spectrum of what they experience. Rather like sitting in an emergency room with a stubbed toe next to someone with a broken leg.
I don't live with my brother (thank heavens) Haven't for years and years. In fact the last time he called hinting for a place to live, I didn't even take the bait.
I have looked into the "codependent" definition and can see where some of it applies. (I am also a "Libra" and can see where some of that applies too. Sigh. I don't want to be rude because I do appreciate the time you have spent on me. But diagnosing anyone can be a difficult and lengthy process - even when you have real instead of virtual access.
I know enough of myself too, to know that a "group" setting would not be a good fit for me. If I were to go, I'd be mostly quiet, be uncomfortable and not likely to return.
I am an introvert and I DO NOT think that is a flaw. I can be very social when the occasion calls for it. I have had several sales jobs, which I have done very well in. I have friends. High school was not a nightmare for me. But I am selective to whom I "open up" to and predict with great confidence that I would not "open up" in a "group session".
The only places the meetings are offered in my area are NOT the best/safest in town. Also only offered once a month.
There are not, that I have found, and yes I did look, codependent groups that meet closer than 2 and a half hours away.
You said I am "all over the place". Not sure what exactly you meant.
I have said from the beginning (have you read my whole thread? I wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to lol.)
that I don't really know for sure what I want. I don't want a return to the marriage I had for 21 years. That's about all I do know. So day by day, I am trying to figure out who I am in this new post bomb world. And keep in mind, that that issue is mostly the focus of my posts here. Oh, I round things out with info about work and the kids, but you see mostly MizJ vs the H. That sitch is "all over the place" but its also only a part of my life.
And btw, codependent personalities very often end up with narcissists. When I brought up my suspicions of narcissistic traits in my H, you I believe were the one of the first to suggest he is an addict.
I haven't read your history OT, but do wonder if you have had extended contact with an addict? And maybe now you see others through glasses tinted with your own experience?
You asked if I have some reason to believe he's not an addict. Yes, I have a lot of reason to believe that. Not everyone who gambles is addicted to it, not everyone who has a drink is an alcoholic. I gave you a list of things H has become "addicted" to over the years. You then said "Who knows what H's problem is."
I find it interesting that you seemed to reject my own suspicion of narcissistic traits, which fits nicely with your label of "codependent" for me, to insist on addiction for my H.
Me 46 H 56 M 22 yrs S22, D20, Twin Ss18
You teach people how to treat you by what you allow. What you stop. And what you reinforce. ~~~~~~~ A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
Again you mistake the focus here. Right, I said, "who knows what H's problem is," and really, who cares? It is his problem. Your H may be a narcissist or a depressed person with severe ADHD who acts a lot like a process addict or sex addict or gambling addict. Or, vice versa. It doesn't much matter. His behavior is unacceptable and you behave in ways that make his life work for him.
So, what matters is that you seem to show strong signs of codependency. It is even pretty predictable that you would given you grew up in a family in which addiction played a role, regardless of the status of your relationships with addicts in your family. This is about YOU not about H or them. If you want something very different in your future, then you will need to change those aspects of yourself.
One of the best ways to become less codependent is through *any* codependent group. Again, these groups are ABOUT the codependents, not about the addicts.
This board is a lot like group therapy. Seeing a counselor or pastor is perhaps like individual therapy. 12 step programs are not group therapy or counseling. For instance, people should actually say nothing to you about whatever you share. It doesn't matter if you are an introvert or an extrovert. Many people do not even share particulars of their lives, but rather abstract patterns of behavior.
It seems you are making choices without accurate information. My bet is that 12-step meetings would help you a great deal. Of course, I could be wrong. But, the risk of trying in time and money is trivial. There are free phone meetings for all sorts of groups at all hours if you don't care to drive to across town.
In any case, I doubt further discussion would be useful. I've shared my thoughts. You're either receptive or not. You'll either try it or not. Probably someone reading this thread will, which is nice to think about. For sure, no matter where you go from here, the more you can have a beginner's mind, the better place you'll find. Enjoy the trip. Ciao.
Again you mistake the focus here. Right, I said, "who knows what H's problem is," and really, who cares? It is his problem. Your H may be a narcissist or a depressed person with severe ADHD who acts a lot like a process addict or sex addict or gambling addict. Or, vice versa. It doesn't much matter. His behavior is unacceptable and you behave in ways that make his life work for him.
You are the one who mistakes MY focus. I came to this board to understand what my H was going through. I am not saying I haven't contributed to the current state of our marriage. In fact, I freely admit (again) to having deliberately adopted an attitude of compliance because I saw it as the best way to take care of my children when they were young. My children are not so young anymore and I no longer feel the need to do that. I understand others come with different goals. Its nice this board accommodates a variety of needs.
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So, what matters is that you seem to show strong signs of codependency.
It seems you are making choices without accurate information.
The same could be said about you. I suggest you consider that nobody on this board puts everything in their posts. You cannot have enough information to make any sort of diagnosis.
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In any case, I doubt further discussion would be useful.
Discussion can be very useful but it involves an EXCHANGE of ideas. Such as person A says "I think you are X" person B says "Oh? Can you tell me how?" And person A responds with actual examples - explaining how person B is coming across as "X".
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I've shared my thoughts. You're either receptive or not. You'll either try it or not. Probably someone reading this thread will, which is nice to think about. For sure, no matter where you go from here, the more you can have a beginner's mind, the better place you'll find. Enjoy the trip. Ciao.
I take it from your response that you are finished sharing with me. It seems that because I don't see things your way that I am "not receptive". No word on how receptive you may be to a viewpoint other than your own.
But you are right, if someone does read this thread and realizes alanon would be a good fit for them then that's absolutely fantastic. And if someone reads this thread and realizes that they don't have to agree with another poster, that its okay to question - because it helps us learn - well that's fantastic too.
Me 46 H 56 M 22 yrs S22, D20, Twin Ss18
You teach people how to treat you by what you allow. What you stop. And what you reinforce. ~~~~~~~ A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
It is truly OK not to know what it is that you want at this very minute. I certainly don't. Well, yes I do. I want a fabulous relationship with the person who used to love me and always be there for me. Too much to ask? Yep, because there is another person involved who does not see things that way.
Knowing what we want in this weirdo-psuedo reality is another thing entirely.
I haven't followed your entire exchange with OT. But I very much believe that "co-dependency" has become the fashionable way to explain people even when they are not truly co-dependent. My experience at groups was good but then, I was dealing with an alcoholic. I am far from being even close to an expert, but if you feel that co-dependency is something you want to look into, the go-to book is "Co-Dependency No More". xSO's therapist actually gave it to him. Problem was that he ran with some of the ideas and became even more selfish than ever...after all being a "co-dependent" is bad!! BTW, I don't think this would happen to you, it just goes to show how over-used that particular concept is. But, check out the books recommended and see if there is anything of value to you in there that would apply to you.
Miz, I think the most important thing about seeking out any kind of help is that (1) you are comfortable with it and (2) that you are open to it. Not so much different than the MLCer. If the "help" does not fit those two criteria, then it is wasted time and I think it is good that you know yourself well enough to know which settings will make you comfortable.
Take care of yourself and keep us posted on how you are doing.
Portia! Always good to hear from you (Perhaps especially so today lol)
Originally Posted By: Portia
It is truly OK not to know what it is that you want at this very minute.
Thanks for that. I know more of what I don't want.
And really, I'm not too stressed about this. I couldn't stand the ow sitch as it was, and was having to take steps to preserve my sanity in relation to that. H didn't do as much as I wanted him to do (get rid of her entirely) but he did more than I expected (brought their R out of hiding). Is this enough for me to jump back in? Absolutely not. But it is enough for now.
Originally Posted By: Portia
I haven't followed your entire exchange with OT. But I very much believe that "co-dependency" has become the fashionable way to explain people even when they are not truly co-dependent.
I am willing to entertain "co-dependency" as a possibility for me - not so much the alanon. I think you may be right about the over use of the diagnosis/term.
I'll look into some of the books, (somebody else recommended "Courage to Change") because there certainly might be golden nuggets therein.
Originally Posted By: Portia
Miz, I think the most important thing about seeking out any kind of help is that (1) you are comfortable with it and (2) that you are open to it. Not so much different than the MLCer. If the "help" does not fit those two criteria, then it is wasted time and I think it is good that you know yourself well enough to know which settings will make you comfortable.
Wow. Now why didn't I say that? Because that's really the point I was trying to get across to OT.
You take care as well Portia. And thanks again for visiting.
Me 46 H 56 M 22 yrs S22, D20, Twin Ss18
You teach people how to treat you by what you allow. What you stop. And what you reinforce. ~~~~~~~ A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
Whoa, slow down. You're fighting with the wind. The reason I think further discussion would be useful is because my aim is only to share info, and I've done that.
I'm not trying to tell you what your focus is or is not. Rather, the focus of which I speak is the focus of groups for codependents of various stripes. The point is that it doesn't much matter what the nature of their partners problem is, because the focus is on the individuals' codependency, not their partners problems.
As far as why it seems to me that you are codependent, I've shared that you've made H's life work for him for a very long time. This is not a new thing. As you suggested yourself, your patterns of behavior probably extend back to before you met H. There are a lot of things that go along with this -- like normalizing his behavior, rationalizing your enabling behavior, and so on. It sounds as though unhealthy ways of living permeate your family, including your children. It would surprise me very much to find that there weren't deep and longstanding problems of codependency in your FOO and in your current family. Of course, I've certainly been surprised in my life, lol.
It is up to you to choose to seriously examine your own behavior or not. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, unless it has been examined. If you want a different future, then the best place to focus your energies is on understanding yourself. Suppose the oracle from Delphi told you everything about H's behavior and its cause. It really wouldn't much matter. That understanding would not give you the power to change H's behavior. Nor, would it give you the power to change your own behavior. You are the one that has enabled H's lifestyle. Why? The answer doesn't lie in the causal story behind H's choices, it lies within you. Should you take this seriously, then it is very likely that a 12-step program for codependents would be immensely valuable to you. If you are interested, you can get a better sense about this stuff by skimming the early pages of some of Melody Beattie's books on Amazon. You can look at many various websites for codependents, like Coda, Cosa, Al-anon, etc...
The reason that I've chosen not to go further into specifics is because I don't think it will be helpful, not because I believe I know everything there is to know about you. I find that to analyze particular instances of of codependency is an exercise in wheel spinning if a person is not receptive to the idea, and unnecessary and perhaps even inappropriate if they are receptive.
I'm not sure about the tone of your responses to me. They seem hostile and argumentative to me. But I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm not even trying to exchange ideas or to explore whether I'm right about whether or not you have codependency issues. Either I am or I'm not. I'm OK being mistaken. I don't seek to convince you or defend my belief. Rather, this is my aim:
(1) To share with you that from my perspective, you appear to be thick in the weeds of active codependency.
(2) Meetings for codependents are amazingly and wonderfully helpful to codependents in terms of transforming their lives.
(3) My belief is that you'd benefit enormously from such meetings.
(4) Such meetings are very different than you seem to anticipate. So, I sought to remedy your apparent misunderstandings that led to roadblocks for you. This was probably a mistake on my part. I know from my own experience that we tend to find roadblocks to paths forward in any number of ways until we choose to take the path. Then, miraculously, the roadblocks disappear.
(5) Giving meetings a fair chance to help you by attending several meetings has the potential to yield huge personal benefits and pretty much no downside as the costs in time and money are minimal. Without trying meetings, you don't know what your experience of them would be like. Not trying meetings is certainly an option. But, it gives you no information on whether or not they can help you.
The above is all I seek to convey. I understand that you want to push back in some way. I'm not sure in what way or why this is the case, but it is not something that I choose to pursue because I don't think it would be helpful.
I will share that in my experience, the things that stress us out, anger us, annoy us, give rise to feelings of hostility, or otherwise irritate us the most are the things that we should try to examine deeply first, rather than push away.
Further, the most helpful posts to me were the one's that pissed me off the most. I don't take your apparent anger toward me personally. I'm not offended or hurt. It does tell me though that: (1) There is a bee in your bonnet now. This is often a good thing and I'm happy to leave the bee to do its own work in its own time. (2) It is time to stop because I've done as much good as I can (if any), and engaging further in such situations merely allows me to function as a convenient target that distracts a person from their true work.
(Perhaps especially so today lol)