Anger got me to acceptance... Mach, though I hear you and I ^^get it, and I believe you, it was not like that for me. So when someone else tells me they're angry, I hesitate to know what they mean and so, what to advise.
For ME - it's more like "Anger kept me stuck & consumed by being "right" and how wrong h was and how bad it all was and how it sukked that h had done this", etc' b/c my anger really did have a hold on me.
I'd call it "venting" BUT it was often just me spiralling downward...
ANGER DID have value in that it made me move forward to protect myself legally, but emotionally, it kept me stuck.
Time, (and acceptance), got me to forgiveness...
This makes sense.
I decided I could not be angry anymore for ME and the KIDS lives to improve...not for H. Not even for him to know. Just For ME and for the kid's lives to improve...I needed to not feel like crap all the time. Not become a bitter shrew or someone that would always feel bad about others, or life.
But another way of saying this^^ would be to say "Time, & acceptance got me to forgiveness." So I relate to this. (However, I did get an apology too.
As discussed earlier on this thread, & What I realized only recently, is that my children did not get an apology. And THEY need one. Now.
My h is barely aware of that b/c it seems so long ago to him. I mean that. I believe him. I told him "they're angry about the abandonment" and h thought I meant the deployment to the middle East. I said, "no, you leaving to Alaska..." H was incredulous. H said, "they're upset about way back THEN??"
It's moments like that when you realize "Wow, his recall is not mine! And never will be. And that's going to have to be okay, b/c identical memories are not mandatory". (If they are, we're all doomed).
You are getting there. I can see it in your posts along the way..
Situational anger...
I remember thinking along these lines..
I would get angry about what she was doing, because I didn't understand it, and then I would get angry because I was missing/losing something.
Then I would get angry because she was missing/losing out on a better person....
Because I couldn't accept what she was doing.... [b] When I finally was able to accept what she was doing, I still didn't understand it, although I went along with it.[/b] to ME this ^^^ is why the asking "WHY???" is so useless. The WAS often does NOT KNOW why...and or the reason "why", changes...or they lie...
but regardless, WE will probably NOT understand it anyhow.
So I say, "asking 'Why is this happening to ME?' is a waste of time.
Better to ask, 'What can I DO NOW to make myself happier & healthier?'"
When I finally understood what she was doing, and accepted it, I also accepted that she wasn't doing it TO me, but rather for herself.
Then, and only then, had I reached a place where I could fully accept, AND forgive her...
Make sense ??? [/quote] YES it makes sense. The depersonalizing is helpful and crucial, like detaching....and it's super super hard to do. The asking "Why?" does not help with it either.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
to ME this ^^^ is why the asking "WHY???" is so useless. The WAS often does NOT KNOW why...and or the reason "why", changes...or they lie...
but regardless, WE will probably NOT understand it anyhow.
So I say, "asking 'Why is this happening to ME?' is a waste of time.
Better to ask, 'What can I DO NOW to make myself happier & healthier?'"
So true. With me, it is rare that I feel angry. I mainly feel disappointed and confused; you are right that even if we knew, we would probably not understand.
Mach, though I hear you and I ^^get it, and I believe you, it was not like that for me. So when someone else tells me they're angry, I hesitate to know what they mean and so, what to advise.
Opposite ends of the spectrum too..
You went through your process of forgiving during a reconciliation, I went through mine during a Divorce.
And that is a HUGE difference...
The timeframe that most people are heading to through the legal process, you were talking and beginning to reconcile. That stage of your anger looked a little different.
Then throw in the Venus/Mars effects too..
Originally Posted By: 25
(However, I did get an apology too.
Is it easier that way ?
It could be, it also could be harder, because forgiving was EXPECTED from him, and not something that you were ready for, yet you HAD to process in order to move forward rebuilding...
Those that have moved through the process without reconciling, don't always have that option. We deal with what is in front of us AT THAT TIME. The same as you did...AT THAT TIME...
From this day forward, means something entirely different based on those two options.
Originally Posted By: 25
As discussed earlier on this thread, & What I realized only recently, is that my children did not get an apology. And THEY need one. Now.
My h is barely aware of that b/c it seems so long ago to him. I mean that. I believe him. I told him "they're angry about the abandonment" and h thought I meant the deployment to the middle East. I said, "no, you leaving to Alaska..." H was incredulous. H said, "they're upset about way back THEN??"
It's moments like that when you realize "Wow, his recall is not mine! And never will be. And that's going to have to be okay, b/c identical memories are not mandatory". (If they are, we're all doomed).
My question to you would be this...
Yes, all of this happened when they were younger, although it would seem that you are still trying to protect them from their Father. I would ask why you are in the middle of the relationship between two grown children and their Father.
Your youngest ? I can see a little of that...
The adult children , and their Father ?
I'm not sure you can "fix" that for them, nor should you be trying to...
Is this just the "Mama Bear" in you still ?
Originally Posted By: Mach1
Originally Posted By: 25
Situational anger...
I remember thinking along these lines..
I would get angry about what she was doing, because I didn't understand it, and then I would get angry because I was missing/losing something.
Then I would get angry because she was missing/losing out on a better person....
Because I couldn't accept what she was doing.... When I finally was able to accept what she was doing, I still didn't understand it, although I went along with it.
to ME this ^^^ is why the asking "WHY???" is so useless. The WAS often does NOT KNOW why...and or the reason "why", changes...or they lie...
but regardless, WE will probably NOT understand it anyhow.
So I say, "asking 'Why is this happening to ME?' is a waste of time.
Better to ask, 'What can I DO NOW to make myself happier & healthier?'"
You and I BOTH know, that no matter what anyone says...
The "whys" HAVE to happen.
There is NO WAY around this happening, especially in this process.
It is a key step toward healing. The answer HAS to be searched out. It MAY be found, yet more than likely, it won't be. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have to be searched for.
You know that more than anyone. Hell, you were the queen of "why".
Is this simply trying to alleviate other people of the pain ? I get that. It's just not that easy to skip that step.
When I say understood, I do not mean that I understood her, I understood the process. THAT is the understanding, and maybe I could have been clearer on that one...
The "whys"....made us better people 25...
Don't forget where you came from...and what helped build, who you are now.
Originally Posted By: Mach1
Originally Posted By: 25
When I finally understood what she was doing, and accepted it, I also accepted that she wasn't doing it TO me, but rather for herself.
Then, and only then, had I reached a place where I could fully accept, AND forgive her...
Make sense ???
YES it makes sense. The depersonalizing is helpful and crucial, like detaching....and it's super super hard to do. The asking "Why?" does not help with it either.
It does help, but only in the "process"
Not with the personal growth that needs to happen AFTER that...
Oh, and a side note ???
Just so you know ???
The RED text ?
Does nothing but confuse the colorblind...
I can't tell what you posted from what I posted on that, except I knew my words.
Geez, now you tell me. So, you really don't know what the heck i've been saying??
I do it so I can see what i wrote versus what they wrote. And b/c I don't do the quotes inside quotes b/c i never did them-don't know how. And b/c of the scrolling down, I find it harder to read in the right order.
Just used colors to distinguish between who said what or what I was responding to.
If I use all caps, it'll sound like I'm yelling but as a teacher I do use colors and bold a lot.
hmmm...now it'll be harder to recall what you wrote b/c that's another reason to use colors. I can go line by line with the person's comments and what my reactions or comments are
b/c otherwise I have to go all by memory.
SO, let me see...
WHY is it my problem that the r's in the family are not all smooth?
It's not my problem although it affects me. ALSO as a subject,
I thought it was a worthy discussion to say "hey, just b/c you reconcile (OR even if you don't but YOU heal), does not necessarily translate to the kids."
That was surprising to me but probably should not have been.
Second, I do NOT KNOW what my role is, vis a vis my older kids and my h.
Absolutely it is something I'm exploring.
But presently all the kids are at home for 5 months (which is mostly great. The age difference between the oldest and youngest is almost 12 years so d15 only had 7 years in a family of 5. The kids are close and they're doing a lot together and it's the first time in 8 years they've all lived here.)
Also b/c h got deployed to the Middle East for an undetermined amount of time, I really really liked having s26 around, and d23 helps d15 so much. (H came back at Christmas)
PROBLEM= h has struggles with them and feels alienated. He asks me for help w/that but seems more focussed on what the division of labor ought to be and is baffled by what he percieves as resentment. I feel at times I'm defending the kids, to h. Other times the kids approach me and essentially as I posted earlier, I end up defending h to them...so they drag me into their disputes. (I know how to stop that but am not sure yet that I want to just stick them in a room alone to "work it out").
The kids seem to want me to see their dad as they do. But I don't. So my son asks if I'm in denial. Yikes.
I refer all parties to the other one UNLESS I think they might escalate. Which happens half the time. then things get said that are awfully painful.
My ds are my biggest priority b/c I feel they were most affected and they're younger, though s26 seems to feel super protective of them, and maybe it's guilt b/c he got a lot of attention from h, etc.
So who knows who was most affected? Anyhow, I want a harmonious family life. There are times I think, Good grief, why'd I do all that DBing if they're not going to get along now? \\
I've had moments where I think I wasted years and energy reconciling if they're all angry at him or he is at them. What was the point of it all?
YES I know I have on control over them. But I do have tools and want to share them. I want them to learn and pass on to my children, (and they to theirs), how to confront and resolve conflicts in a healthy way.
But I struggle a lot as a parent, about when I'm not supposed to be a parent anymore or when I'm not to act as one. When is the arrow released from the bow?
The other night, My unflappable d15 asked me if she could see a T by herself. i cannot stress how shocking that question was, coming from HER.
She's sort of weirdly well adjusted in some ways. Don't know if you read it but last summer her basketball coach made an unfair and really crappy remark to her that would have made ME cry at that age. ("worst defensive player" etc) I was a college athlete and have never heard a coach say something like that to anyone. Seriously...
I asked d15 if she was okay a few minutes later b/c other teammates said they'd "have started crying" if it had been them. They're being honest.
D15 said, "Oh I'm fine. I scored the most points and stole a lot too. I had a good game. I don't know what his problem is, but it's not me."
(See, I needed to be 35 y/o AND have had therapy, before I could distinguish between someone else's problems and their lashing out at me).
ANYHOW
Right now H also has his issues from his deployment and I'm not sure how he's processing them. We both served in the first Gulf war and a POW camp was where I was, which was weird and difficult. But not the same. And I have had years to process it. Plus no issues of abandonment for the kids b/c they were so young (I Had issues with it, as a mother but that's another story).
H Seems very angry. He Saw a lot of bad things done to people by the Taliban, and he hates how it's being handled politically, which makes news almost unwatchable with him atm. Same for discussions of politics or religion b/c he lumps all religions, atm with the theocratic fanatics who he saw hurt so many innocent people, including his interpreters 5 y/o family member.
So I think it'd be good for h and I to do some couples things...not directly relating to the kids. The Veterans Admin offers some limited and geographically far away help. The reservists have it much harder b/c no one in our area is military. While active duty, everyone around you "gets it".
But I KNOW H feels alienated and is alienated. Hes been gone too much for too long. Some of it is not his fault, some is. The kids seem to view his deployment as just another "more TIME AWAY from family."
Trying to rebuild a family after that, is hard.
But I don't pretend to have answers about where I fit in and where I need to just back off. I do not know.
I WANT them all to get along and be close as they once were, and I do believe it's possible. So the goal is clear... I THINK ...all I can do is get a third party involved so I can step aside and say,''Okay, here are some tools I found really helpful. Please consider them"
and let go of it...as best as I can.
As a mom, I don't know how to let go. It was one thing to learn to do as a wife, or LBSer, but as a mother, I just am not sure yet where that line is. But I'm looking for it.
I'll get to your other points--the apology YES it helped me to forgive b/c I felt safer forgiving b/c we were reconciling.
Less risk if he gets what he did and shows me. But without some sort of apology I doubt I could have taken him back, forgiven or not. Do you get that?
Not sure if it's as necessary if you are not risking a reconciliation but I think an apology never hurts.
But most of us don't get them. And even h's apology wasn't all emcompassing. But then I saw him at Retrovaille and we had some big "moments". H is not a crier.
But at one point late in it, he broke down and cried, hard, for the "relationships on life support" and the "wreckage" he caused, I didn't feel the need for a lot more words. I knew at that moment, that he truly fully "got it". As to whether that is fully recalled (it was awfully painful for him to feel that type of remorse and not everyone can carry it for long)
I don't know. And am not positive of its' importance. Yet.
But now I see that I should have shared that with the kids. When I did, they were amazed and touched.
Why didn't I tell them earlier? It felt private and marital...but really it was all about all of us.
Make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I went back to read some of your other questions (which is why the coloring and quoting helps me. I can just go over the other person's post once and highlight my replies in color.
If you know another way of doing this so I don't have to post more than once but can do it without using colors, let me know. OTherwise, is there a color that is more visible to you?)
ANYHOW, the "Why"s of it all...what is the value of it? There's what I "know" and what I "think".
I KNOW I asked "Why?" way too much & for far too long. As you said, I was the "Queen of Why's"> (I'm stealing that but with attribution of course)
It was if I was in a loop on the freeway and NOT taking an exit ramp. I was stuck in a blame mode... asking why H was doing/thinking/feeling/planning whatever he was, HOW he could do this?? How he could face himself, and blah blah blah which was a ton of mindreading and speculation on my end.
And I was INTO it - using lots of my energy to NOT be available to my kids, not really "present" with them b/c I was preoccupied with my quest for answers...and I finally realized there were no "good" reasons for it.
Now, OTOH, the "WHY"s of it as they relate to ME, WERE VERY USEFUL.
They related directly to the question "What can I do to change my life, now?"
And without ever asking yourself that^^, you'll never grow or change.
I THINK the questions about "why" the WAS does what they do, are not that useful compared to asking the LBSer some "why's?", such as
"why did I not see this before? Why did I not react differently or sooner?
Why didn't I adapt or change or leave?" or my personal favorite,
"WHY didn't I change my approach sooner, (b/c it sure wasn't working?!")
In my sitch, I came to realize it was b/c I thought I was "right" to react w/closed arms (literally & figuratively) when h came home late. I felt he was choosing work over family. If I were to act happy, h might take it for granted and then I'd be rewarding his "bad" choices...(yes, I recall actually thinking that!)
Oh sure, at times there were other reasons for his late hours that were beyond his control. But at times he chose to stay late and do an extra case someone else could easily do.
For the sake of discussion, Let's say I was "right" and h was choosing work over family.
Why would he do that? He was NOT paid more back then....so was it B/C he was getting accolades from strangers, getting thanks from his patients, attention from his colleagues?? POSITIVE something from them.
If you look at that^^ in one light, it's annoying. H can seem childishly selfish.
After all, Dads and moms don't get bonuses for jobs well done, or promotions or even certificates suitable for framing...hey, we're parents!
But what if I asked myself:
"What If I welcomed h home with open arms and warmly received him, INSTEAD of showing my anger? "What if I gave h a home to miss?"
(You'd think with how smart I like to think I am, that it would have occurred to me a year or DECADE earlier, but nope, not ME!!
When I'm "right", I can't change---because...hello?? BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!!!..and that's that!) So that ^^ analysis makes asking "why" very useful. But those "why's" are all about ME and MY choices, not h's.
Finally, your point about getting or needing an apology and how it relates to forgiveness for couples who do NOT reconcile
makes a lot of sense. It IS different.
I needed an apology NOT For forgiveness but for reconciliation b/c I needed to trust him,- that he really was choosing us and wanted to and wasn't going to disappear again. But yes it makes it easier to forgive too...but not mandatory if you are not reconciling.
For ME, asking why (about h), just kept me stuck and angry
and only when I turned the focus of questions to MY behavior did real progress start.
In some ways, the main thing I HAD to understand was that H was not going to do it (leave us) again. (OR else how could I reconcile?)
For couples trying to piece, if no accountability happens on either end, I don't know how much hope there is, but when the measuring spoons for sins come out, I think things are doomed. At some point yes you do have to go from this day forward & let go. But what IF h never came back from Alaska AND never apologized?...
I will ponder that more.
All I can I "know" is that I'd have moved on b/c I already had started to.
My regrets would focus heavily on how my kids were handling it. The rest I will have to ponder more.
BUT--
I would advise parents who are reconciling (or not), to involve their children in the healing process, as best they can.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Mach -on your post you seem to quote me. But those are not my words. Unless I was quoting you...inside the quotes it says "posted by 25" but I didn't say that...
"accepting her" is not me, it's you talking, right?
So can you see my confusion about the quote usage?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I may have to pick up War and Peace , for a little "light" reading after that one.... : )
And yes, I mixed up the quote boxes, and the names should be reversed on the previous response.
Originally Posted By: 25
PROBLEM= h has struggles with them and feels alienated. He asks me for help w/that but seems more focussed on what the division of labor ought to be and is baffled by what he percieves as resentment. I feel at times I'm defending the kids, to h. Other times the kids approach me and essentially as I posted earlier, I end up defending h to them...so they drag me into their disputes. (I know how to stop that but am not sure yet that I want to just stick them in a room alone to "work it out").
The kids seem to want me to see their dad as they do. But I don't. So my son asks if I'm in denial. Yikes.
I refer all parties to the other one UNLESS I think they might escalate. Which happens half the time. then things get said that are awfully painful.
My ds are my biggest priority b/c I feel they were most affected and they're younger, though s26 seems to feel super protective of them, and maybe it's guilt b/c he got a lot of attention from h, etc.
So who knows who was most affected?
Anyhow, I want a harmonious family life. There are times I think, Good grief, why'd I do all that DBing if they're not going to get along now? \\
I've had moments where I think I wasted years and energy reconciling if they're all angry at him or he is at them. What was the point of it all?
You said ...problem..
I gotta say, that I understand the whole "harmonious life" thing, but how does that play into a "fixing" mentality from you ? To me, it seems as if that is just more of the "whys" that you moved away from.
I dunno, it just makes more sense (at least to me), to say to them, that you are not his secretary, therapist, or babysitter, and if they have an issue with him, that they are adults, and they need to work it out with HIM, not you. Seems like wasted energy for you .
You can't be there forever to fix their issues with other people. Their memories of the past, will differ from yours. And your stand meant something different to you than it did to them. Your Love for him is different than their Love for him. You can support their feelings though, and listen , but being deeply involved is something different. And it will leave you drained, if you allow that to happen.
It seems as though, at least through their eyes, you are re-living the past. You and he are trying to move forward, with their relationship dragging you backward. That can't be healthy for the marriage.
Seems it would be more "harmonious" to not be in the middle..
Then again, you didn't say WHO you wanted it more harmonious for...
Originally Posted By: 25
I THINK ...all I can do is get a third party involved so I can step aside and say,''Okay, here are some tools I found really helpful. Please consider them"
and let go of it...as best as I can.
As a mom, I don't know how to let go. It was one thing to learn to do as a wife, or LBSer, but as a mother, I just am not sure yet where that line is. But I'm looking for it.
Maybe the answer lies in that ??
Maybe you could step back enough to get a clearer picture of the dynamics, and then re-assess.
Maybe that means that you use the first part of the quote ? With a different ending ?
I THINK ...all I can do is get a third party involved so I can step aside and say, "I need for you all to find a way through this , and I trust all of you to get through this"
As for the rest ?
Yes...it makes sense, a lot of sense actually...
Yet I see you banging your head against the wall trying to fix everything. And that can't be healthy for you mentally.
Maybe you could step back enough to get a clearer picture of the dynamics, and then re-assess.
Maybe that means that you use the first part of the quote ? With a different ending ?
I THINK ...all I can do is get a third party involved so I can step aside and say, "I need for you all to find a way through this , and I trust all of you to get through this"
I like this^^^ both in terms of wording and in terms of how I'm going to frame it in my head. (Mach, I chose a lovely blue, just for YOU).
Yet I see you banging your head against the wall trying to fix everything. And that can't be healthy for you mentally. I'm beginning to feel this ^^ is not something I want to do much more. I do A LOT of counselling in my "real life" and it felt natural to do here...
but you know, it's not fun. IT's not warm & fuzzy. It's draining and worse, it is affecting MY r with my h, and my r's with my son.
My d's? Not so much yet. Can't say why.
But I look forward to the "hand off" next week...if not sooner.
Thanks.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
While this started off as a thank you thread, there's a ton of great, thought-provoking material in here. Thanks to all for their contributions.
On the forgiveness/acceptance thing by Janice Abrahms, I'm not sure I buy that. The 10 steps certainly seem the same as forgiveness to me, she just calls it something different at the end. It's almost like tricking yourself to hold on to a little resentment....I accept your choices, but I don't forgive you for them. Doesn't seem healthy to me.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I needed an apology NOT For forgiveness but for reconciliation b/c I needed to trust him,- that he really was choosing us and wanted to and wasn't going to disappear again.
But yes it makes it easier to forgive too...but not mandatory if you are not reconciling.
^^^This is more how I think about it. I can forgive without apology, but to reconcile, I think that other person has to take responsibility for their actions to demonstrate that they understand what happened, why, and to say "I won't do it again."
Great discussion on "the process"...it's so difficult to get that initially. I think it's just not the WAS who is generally in a "fog"...it's the LBS as well. Different reasons sure, but I think we're all lost initially.
