Re the door thing: what bothers me is the closing of it, when it could be left open - the rejection that this communicates to me - at least that is how I interpret it (did catch myself snoring last night again; perhaps that is the reason?).
Working on counselor thing. Will ask my current C for a name or two here, this Friday.
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Following the advice of doing something different, I did not serve lunch, which I usually would. W and I have not talked for hours now, she is upstairs, I down. Will go running in a bit.
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Great Luke, about the tarp, and the boat, and what you said about the trip. I think those three stories were lacking some of the fears that have been rampant in your posts. I think you might have been reluctant to even buy the tarp because she'd comment. She did, and you politely disagreed, and how do you feel? Are you ok with that disagreement? Are you going to proceed with trying to sell it and see how you do? (Do you want to sell it?) I think you did pretty well facing potential fears there, and hope you saw that you practiced saying and doing things and handling any resultant comment.
I like that you didn't conclude the conversation about the parks; you still want to think about it, and you listened to her objections. Now, the way I see it, you really really want to see the parks while you're there. You need to check with S about his job and see if he wants to be with you for the parks or go home, but it sounds like you're going to the parks. W is free to choose and may choose to go home - even though apparently she too wants to see the parks - just to not hang out with you. That's ridiculous. Go ahead and plan what you want to do, and invite her, and her saying she won't go isn't going to be any worse than what you're used to, you can handle it.
Do you think crying was unreasonable last BD six years ago? I don't. There are plenty of men here who've cried. Your W wants to be with someone more masculine and strong than you have acted to date, but you're starting to practice getting there.
It sounds like you have decided to leave the question of divorce in her hands and that you think she's eventually headed in that direction. If that's the case, you have nothing to lose by practicing more strength in yourself now.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
The trip to the US is now the most pressing issue. W appears to want to travel to national parks also, but not with me. How can this be resolved? Do we need to negotiate who gets which kid(s) when? Do we take two cars? We had fun last summer, I thought, traveling together the four of us.Or perhaps, does the answer lie in my changing, so that W can tolerate being with me?
What a waste if we all go home, without seeing anything, having paid so much and being so near the parks.
I will likely spend 3 weeks at work in California, after visiting, or not, the parks, should that be relevant.
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
#1 talk to son to find out if he can commit to park visit. Get that figured out first.
#2 once you have the answer to her weak argument about S's work, decide what would be fun for you. Draft the schedule, locations and costs.
#3 tell w this is what you want to do with the kid(s) and her. Hear her response and concerns. If youre really getting along that badly she shouldnt go but this is an experience for the kid(s) to have with their dad and youve already considered and handled the one legit argument (s work).
You are going. The kid(s) are going. The question is only whether she is going with you. If shes going to use the kids as pawns and try not to let you vacation with them, then luke you are hanging onto to what is not a marriage.
I dont know why she's not been willing to walk away from it, and i wonder what it will take for you to be willing to. Being willing to isnt the same as doing it, its just reaching the point where change is preferable than the status quo.
You might ask her to help brainstorm how this trip will work for her. Perhaps boys get a room and girls get a second room. It might be your last trip as a family together and you should work together to make it possible.
That means being strong enough to hear her. Dont go in arguing, go in saying what you think and then hearing her, and being open to reasonable modifications that still accomplish your goals. Your goal #1 is see parks with kids. Is her #1 goal to see parks without you? Really? So maybe you all go and she and you split the days doing different activities with the kids, as a compromise that gets closer to both your goals.
If shes expecting you to go away so she can see the parks with kids without you, tell her no.
If shes really going to push you to the wall on this, what are you trying to protect by accommodating her so much? It might be time to set up an agreement so you have equal access to your kids.
And finally, when u have these conversations, when she is rude, condescending, yells or belittles you, be prepared to say ya know, W? I luv ya but this attitude is preventing us from having this necessary discussion. Be respectful so we can continue. If not, well talk about this in an hour after you calm down. Im going for a walk. Or something like that. Dont match her vitriol, dont escalate it. Call it out and stop the conversation right there.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
and thank you for your long, detailed response. I have now emailed my son to ask about his possible summer job. #2 is not so much an issue, as it will not be so expensive, and I also don't want to hear her occasional complaint that I always plan our vacation. There are so many parks near where we are that we can hang loose on this for a while I think.
#3 will happen. One question: what is the limit for a marriage - when do I accept that D is the solution? She is the rejector, the WAW. I don't want to tell the kids that our M no longer worked *because of us both and that this is a mutual decision*.
I will not let her and kids see parks without me. Your pointing out that she and I should work together to make this, possibly our last family vacation, possible, is great and I think will motivate her. If we have to, yes, we can share the kids somehow.
Our last family vacation, last summer, already had girls in one room and boys in the other.
One thing that gets her is my reasonable, polite, mode of talking with her. I think Mr. Bond's point re anger and passion is important, as it is a real 180 for me.
Thanks,
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
"And finally, when u have these conversations, when she is rude, condescending, yells or belittles you, be prepared to say ya know, W? I luv ya but this attitude is preventing us from having this necessary discussion. Be respectful so we can continue. If not, well talk about this in an hour after you calm down. Im going for a walk. Or something like that. Dont match her vitriol, dont escalate it. Call it out and stop the conversation right there."
My H had started to speak to me this way. I would match the crazy or just back down. Once I voiced that he be respectful or we won't continue, he stopped speaking to me this way. It took multiple times of me saying it. But it stopped. And he said later how much he respected and was attracted to that.
M: 9 yrs T: 13 yrs H:34 Me:35, S4, D2, S 7 months Dday 11/12-PA & multiple PAs Dbing 12/12 S 1/13 7/13 H moved back in basement. 8/13 #3 born 10/13 still cheating 10/13 He moves across country, I file for D
From a female perspective, though I'm nothing like your W,
anger and passion acted out in order to appear strong and manly
looks weak and silly.
Anger expressed for the mere purpose of expressing it is counterproductive.
When you have conversation #3 with W and you tell her reasonably what you want and she says no, you may feel angry but your strength would lie in asking for and listening to her objections to look for common ground so you can resolve this dispute over who is traveling with the kids in America. When she gets RUDE, where I said before shut it down with quiet strength in the conviction that a man doesn't need to be talked to like that, THEN might be the time to show anger if it is with a purpose. Maybe Bond can say. No! W I will not be spoken to like that! Maybe slam the table? IDK.
Point I'm making, is I've been around an angry man who had to go out in the garage to throw a child's carseat because he was so angry - NOT attractive, NOT in control of himself, NOT productive. I've been around an angry man who will YELL at me, and that is not attractive.
You're coming at it from such the opposite extreme. When you dismiss my idea as being too polite, remember that my idea was to NOT stand for being spoken to like that, and to NOT be told no and back down. THAT is already a 180 for you.
You've got to know what is not OK to you, and stand up for that, politely and then more assertively, and then angrily if need be. But the real difference you're achieving is not the ANGRY it's the KNOW and the STAND UP.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
