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Bel123 Offline OP
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I have been backsliding for the last few days and it is confusing me more. Last two weeks have been decent as in having a conversation that did not involve S but then boom, she is cold again. And I am ALWAYS reacting to her coldness. I need to get out of the mind set of “I will treat you the way you treat me”.

I went out with a few friends and then my SIL’s boyfriend the other day and it was not our intention to talk about W’s and my situation but it came up in a way where he said he was going to place X but didn’t since he was tired and stuff but then I was like “funny because when W left the house the evening, she said she was going to meet a friend first and then to meet you”. He couldn’t believe it. There was drinking involved so my big mouth couldn’t shut up. Long story short, that morning I went to volunteer s so that meant W had to get up at 8:30. She went out with her girls the night before. So the beginning of the week when she said she was planning on going out on Friday, I told her that I planned on volunteering that Saturday morning but I will get up at 6 and do the morning stuff with S. She said she was fine with it and that she has practice doing so. So I left it at that. So apparently, SIL’s BF tells me she is mad at me. I was like why…. He said she was talking to her sister and said how I should have cancelled my plans since she made the plans first. I guess her sister was on my side of telling her that I am volunteering and that she is going out drinking so she shouldn’t be mad. Then W said to her sister “who’s side are you on anyway”. This is not the W I know. Her sister and her get along so much its not even funny. They look at each other and think of the same thing and laugh like hell. So for her to say that to her is not her usual self.

The more and more I see of the changings in W, I keep questions myself if this is the same person and if not, do I really want to be with her? Is it the fog, the years of feeling neglect, still feeling anger towards me (which some of it is warranted)?

How do you guys know this is really the same person deep down in there you fell in love with? I know people change and I have changed as well but what if that person is gone and never to be found. How can we tell?


Me:36,W:37
M:8, T:13
S:3yo, D:10yo (mine)
BD 10/12 and 01/13
DBing since 02/13
W moved out 8/13
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Hi, Bel,

I think only time will tell. My H acts like a totally different person TO ME, but acts very much the same to almost everyone else. So, I guess I don't know the answer to your Q, but your thread intrigued me, so I thought I'd post. smile


M- 18 T-21
S-14,11 & 10
BD 6-18-2012 (OW-EA)
H moved out 11-3-2012
10-5-13 Me- I want a divorce. I want to move on w my life.
11-25-13 Jointly filed.
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Wow, littleGTO you described my W perfectly, so different to me (at least still amicable) but very much the same person to everyone else.


ME:51 W:46
M:25
S:22, S:20
Divorced 16/9/15
BD 10/12
W left 12/12 with OW, affair confirmed Nov/12.
Dark since 6/13
I"m in a new relationship since Feb 14.
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Originally Posted By: Bel123
Last two weeks have been decent as in having a conversation that did not involve S but then boom, she is cold again. And I am ALWAYS reacting to her coldness. I need to get out of the mind set of “I will treat you the way you treat me”.


Agree...you need to stop letting your W's reactions control your behavior. You should try to appear happy regardless of W's behavior.

Originally Posted By: Bel123
How do you guys know this is really the same person deep down in there you fell in love with? I know people change and I have changed as well but what if that person is gone and never to be found. How can we tell?


When someone decides they no longer want to be married, it's an extremely emotional and confusing thing. They are unhappy, so they start trying to find happiness somewhere, and often make bad decisions because of it. When they start to feel connected to you, or happy with you, they try to piss you off so they can be reminded of what an ass you are and justify their choices.


M:44 W:42
M:15
S:19, D:16, S:14, D:12, S:6
BD: 2/14/11
D Final: 6/25/13
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Bel123 Offline OP
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It has been a really stressful day. Life at work sacks and might not be able to meet deadline. Life at home sacks and I keep backsliding. I go to work and feel like crap then to MC feel like crap then back to work and feel like crap.

W and I had MC today and like I have said before, every we are in there she feels guilty that she is causing so much of the problem and that she is not able to bring herself to fix it or want to fix it she cries. Today even when I validate her feelings of rejection from the past. I messed up and try to relate to her feeling of how I have felt rejected in the past and can imagine how she felt. The MC heard it me trying to empathize with her and she saw it as me trying to attack her or make her hurt less. That was not my point or intentions. So when I don’t say anything and just listen, she says that I just sit there and watch her cry which makes her feel humiliated. When I say something to validate she says she feels like I am not empathic but feels I have pity for her. I feel like there is nothing I do or say where it is accepted. I told W and MC that I feel like there is nothing I do right. And that’s where the MC said this isn’t working well and suggested we either see her individually so we are not feeling pressured by the other person being there as well as talking to our IC, stop MC until we have more time with IC to work on self, or let W’s ICer come to our MC for support. We agreed on her talking to our IC and also meeting each other separately.

I can see how W feels bad because she is not able to let anything good I say into her system and she is not accepting it. She said “this relationship is not good for me or you”. I am lost into what to do. I am able to listen to her or other people better and I can see how that is working with other people but with W, she is blocked off. And I haven’t let that bother me that much as I have read so many posts that they can “check out” so what I am to do? I will continue to do me and keep on improving myself. I am worried that I or her might push her off to really asking for a S or D.

Any insight or what I should talk to the MC individually would be helpful. I know the MC did say that she will not keep a secret for her and if we tell her a secret, she will encourage us to talk about it and drive the conversation more to that. I don’t know if I should bring up OM and my thoughts of why W is so checked out. Is that a something to bring up?


Me:36,W:37
M:8, T:13
S:3yo, D:10yo (mine)
BD 10/12 and 01/13
DBing since 02/13
W moved out 8/13
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 59
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Bel123 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: littleGTO
Hi, Bel,

I think only time will tell. My H acts like a totally different person TO ME, but acts very much the same to almost everyone else. So, I guess I don't know the answer to your Q, but your thread intrigued me, so I thought I'd post. smile


Hello GTO,

It might be they are hiding their feels and hurt to others but since it is directed towards is we see it.


Me:36,W:37
M:8, T:13
S:3yo, D:10yo (mine)
BD 10/12 and 01/13
DBing since 02/13
W moved out 8/13
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 59
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Bel123 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Breakdown

When someone decides they no longer want to be married, it's an extremely emotional and confusing thing. They are unhappy, so they start trying to find happiness somewhere, and often make bad decisions because of it. When they start to feel connected to you, or happy with you, they try to piss you off so they can be reminded of what an ass you are and justify their choices.


BD, you are right on that and I see that from reading all of your stich you have put in so much time and as a result you have become a better person and able to identify your own issues and have been working on them.

Our stiches are similar in a way. Except mine is not as much of a roller coaster ride as yours has been since there is no touchy touchy LOL. If you would look back and say a few things you would do differently during DBing, what would they be? Would you have done Plan B earlier? I am afraid I might be very resentful if I stay too long or feel like I spent too much time worrying about the M and not about myself and my own feelings.

Also, I took some of the online surveys we talked about the other day. The judgmental and controlling. It said I am judgmental (low grade but still) but that I am not controlling. Which I have to take it with a grain of salt since I know I have been controlling when the reality of losing W 2X4ed me on the face. I have honestly stopped asking her anything where she would take it to be controlling. So now in turn, when I am out with my friends, she asks me where I was. I will continue to work on not controlling but I still do believe communication of where a bout with two married people shouldn't be looked at being controlling. But that’s for a normal M and this is not a normal M.

I want to also thank you for using this form to journal and the back and forth with Mach1. It has really made me deeply think about a lot of thing. As soon as I think I have it all figured out, it is just the first layer. Hope all will work for you as I feel like I have seen you become a better person who in the end will be happy with or without W. Rooting for WITH for you wink


Me:36,W:37
M:8, T:13
S:3yo, D:10yo (mine)
BD 10/12 and 01/13
DBing since 02/13
W moved out 8/13
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 59
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Bel123 Offline OP
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More drama for your mama as they say….
So last week, SiL’s BF and I were out and he mentioned of a place he was planning on going too but didn’t. Which W told me she was going to meet him there. So he was pissed that she was using them as excuse. So yesterday W comes to me and says something like… I don’t want there to be confusion but I just came from (sister’s) place and had an argument with her sister and her bf. Apparently, her sister pulled her over and told her they don’t appreciate her using them as a way to lie about her where about. W said I asked SiL’s BF about her night out which I did not. So I made it clear he brought it up as in he was planning on going to such and such place and I said oh you met W there and he said no he did not because he did not go there. She said she is feel tired of fighting and don’t have it in her to fight and she said her relationship with her S is stressed as well (due to her backing me up for volunteering while W wanted to sleep in late from the night out- W said who’d side are you on to her S which is not like her). I told W that it is hard times for everybody and that it [censored] for there to be confusion and misunderstanding. I told her I did not bring it up and was not trying to start anything up. She said it wasn’t my fault. I told her when I asked her how was your night the next day, she said it was fine which I assumed she had gone to the place she said she was going. I did not go any further as I am not trying to be controlling as she already thinks I am. I was trying to show an interest in her life of just asking general questions of how things are or how is work so there is still a line of communication. She said she hasn’t been talking to them about our issues and they feel they are trying to be there for her but she is not coming to them for support.

What I have learned from this is what DBing has said many of time. I need not speak about W and I with her family. Even if they bring it up I should just not say anything about it. She already feels pressured so I am sure this incident will feel more pressure to her.

Earlier that day I did suggested we go to a museum with S since she did not have any plans for him on Sunday. We went and it was nice. We went after the conversation above. When we got home she was trying to get S out the baby seat while holding her bag and I said I can take him out to which she said “I am capable of carrying a bag and getting him out”. On the way there I offered to take him out as well since she is carrying a big bag. I told her my offer to take him out is not because I thought she is not capable of it but because she is carrying a bag. I also told her that goes for other times as well where when I offer help it is not because I think she is can’t do something. She said ok and I saw her face change so I asked if everything is ok. She said ok and saw tears in her eye. I know she hates me seeing her tear and felt she just needed to compose herself so I did not say anything else. The rest of the evening went ok as in small chit chats mostly about S.


Me:36,W:37
M:8, T:13
S:3yo, D:10yo (mine)
BD 10/12 and 01/13
DBing since 02/13
W moved out 8/13
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,144
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Originally Posted By: Bel123
If you would look back and say a few things you would do differently during DBing, what would they be? Would you have done Plan B earlier? I am afraid I might be very resentful if I stay too long or feel like I spent too much time worrying about the M and not about myself and my own feelings.


I wish I would have figured out some of my issues faster (i.e. controlling...I seemed to really have a difficult time grasping that one), but really, I don't have any regrets. It's a process and you just have to find your way thru it.

And no, I don't think I should have done plan B any sooner...though it took me a while to get there (honestly, I am still struggling with it), the prior 7-8 months was exactly what I had discussed with my DB coaches. I showed W the new me and how great our lives could be together. It was long enough that she believes my changes, and good enough that I think she'll miss it (I know I already do!).

No resentment from me. Even if I end up D, I had a pretty damn good year. If things weren't as great as they've been though, I think the time would seem like a lot longer than it does.

Originally Posted By: Bel123
I will continue to work on not controlling but I still do believe communication of where a bout with two married people shouldn't be looked at being controlling. But that’s for a normal M and this is not a normal M.


Careful with that. I used to think the same thing, and while I agree that spouses should be accountable to each other, you are not in a normal sitch. When you both agree to work on it, then I'd discuss that expectation. But for now, I'd stop worrying about it.

You read my sitch, so you know I struggled with the same thing for a long time...simple things like not letting me know if she'd be home for dinner. Mach1 helped me understand that I needed to just take control of the sitch and tell W, "hey, we're having dinner at 6pm, let me know if you are joining us." It stopped fights and resentment from even occurring.

Originally Posted By: Bel123
I want to also thank you for using this form to journal and the back and forth with Mach1. It has really made me deeply think about a lot of thing. As soon as I think I have it all figured out, it is just the first layer.


I'm glad others are getting something out of it...I'm so grateful for Mach1 and others helping me thru the process (an ongoing process I might add).

Originally Posted By: Bel123
Hope all will work for you as I feel like I have seen you become a better person who in the end will be happy with or without W. Rooting for WITH for you wink


Thanks....I appreciate the support and hope I can support you along the way as well.

So with that, let's circle back to you. What are you working on? What are your goals? Who do you want to be?


M:44 W:42
M:15
S:19, D:16, S:14, D:12, S:6
BD: 2/14/11
D Final: 6/25/13
Joined: Aug 2012
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Originally Posted By: Bel123

W and I had MC today and like I have said before, every we are in there she feels guilty that she is causing so much of the problem and that she is not able to bring herself to fix it or want to fix it she cries.


This is pretty common with WAS's, but don't confuse it with a desire to reconcile. The crying is purely an expression of guilt, they know they're hurting others with their decision and they're frustrated about it, but they are still resolute that they're doing the right thing. It takes a long time before they might start turning these thoughts into thoughts of reconciliation.

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Today even when I validate her feelings of rejection from the past. I messed up and try to relate to her feeling of how I have felt rejected in the past and can imagine how she felt.


That is not validation. You should NEVER respond with anything that says or implies you know exactly how she feels, because that is belittling her feelings. Validation is letting her know her feelings are unique and important and that you care about them. That's it. No explaining/ justifying/ defining or anything of the sort. Here is an example of validation:

- (wife cries)
- What do you feel right now, are you feeling angry?
- No, I'm just frustrated with everything.
- You do sound frustrated, how frustrated are you? A little or a lot?
- A lot, I've never felt like this in my life!
- Yes, I can tell that you are very frustrated. I'm sorry you feel that way, it must be a very difficult thing to go through.
- It is, etc. etc. etc.

Usually the "etc. etc. etc." part is an extension of how she's feeling, once she starts to feel that you are genuinely interested in her feelings it leads her to open up more. Again, the idea here is to listen intently and neutrally validate without trying to fix, explain, agree, disagree, etc.

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The MC heard it me trying to empathize with her and she saw it as me trying to attack her or make her hurt less.


Yes, that's exactly how it appears to them when you say things like "I went through this and I know EXACTLY how you feel." Because what they're thinking is you know NOTHING about how they feel, and as usual, you're jumping to conclusions and assuming you know when you really don't. Instead you need to take the position that you DON'T know, but you want to know, so you're asking her just enough to encourage her to tell you.

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That was not my point or intentions.


That doesn't matter. All that matters is her perception. You need to quit looking at this from your perspective and try to see it from hers.

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So when I don’t say anything and just listen, she says that I just sit there and watch her cry which makes her feel humiliated.


Of course she does. Sitting there silently is just another form of rejecting her feelings.


Quote:
When I say something to validate she says she feels like I am not empathic but feels I have pity for her.


Like I described above, you didn't validate. You thought you did, but you didn't. It's extremely important for you to learn what real validation looks and sounds like because it is a critical tool in good communication. If you ever get close to reconciling definitely consider Retrouvaille, it is the best program I know of for teaching these techniques.

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I feel like there is nothing I do or say where it is accepted. I told W and MC that I feel like there is nothing I do right.


Don't take offense, but you need to understand that when you say things like this you're just saying "it's all about me, me me!" Unfortunately the burden of performance is on the LBS, this is not the time to express your wants/ needs/ feelings. It's all about the WAS and THEIR wants/ needs/ feelings. Yours need to be pushed aside for now.

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I can see how W feels bad because she is not able to let anything good I say into her system and she is not accepting it.


Be careful with the mindreading. If you always maintain a PMA around your W, it will still take her months to thaw to your improvements. That does not mean she's not letting it "into her system", indeed she is, she's just not outwardly expressing that because she doesn't want you to get the wrong impression.

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I am able to listen to her or other people better and I can see how that is working with other people but with W, she is blocked off.


Drop your expectations. Many people get tripped up in DB'ing because they want immediate results. "I'm acting different, why isn't she responding???" She's not responding because she doesn't believe your changes are real. As 25 says, "Consistent actions + Time = change your S can believe in." The formula doesn't work without the consistent actions, and it doesn't work without the time. It takes BOTH.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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