Served

[dorightman]

I've moved out of the house beginning of this month. I have been sleeping on and off at a friends house for the past 4 months. Wondering if I should try to move back into the house by the end of this month?

[MrBond]

Okay, you need a HUGE 2 x4. Here goes.

"W is keeping boundaries. Wants to relate as neighbors. Will not talk about R without therapist. Feels nothing for me and holding her position.

Of course she is. Haven't you learned ANYTHING from DBing? STOP talking about the R.

"She said she was angry when I asked for boundaries because she feels like I didn't respect her boundaries until now. She thinks its all about me and that I don't do anything for her."

And she is right. You ARE STILL making it about you and your feelings and how hurt YOU are, etc. She protecting herself from you. You've crossed her emotional and physical boundaries a number of times. Aren't you the one who forced her to smell your armpit? You're lucky she didn't call the cops on you.

"I feel like she's not going to change, and right now I feel pretty down."

She isn't going to change BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T CHANGED.

"Not tried DBing until August, but doing 180's, being a good husband and father."

Have you read any one else's threads? Some didn't see ANY improvement until years later.

"W had been telling me that we need help and that this was very serious in the beginning."

And she was right. She made it very clear in the letter.

"Well, over time, the story changed and it went from we need to work on these very serious problems to now where she is driving the ship straight to divorce."

YOu don't get it. She tried to get help from you but you didn't listen to her which is why she is now wanting a divorce. Why would she want to stay with someone who didn't listen to her and treats her like that? In fact, you were acting irrational as recently as last week.

"There is nothing innocent about what w is doing."

Oh please. STOP putting all the blame on your W. YOU pushed her to it.

"By acting the way she is acting, w is going to force an outcome."

No she's not forcing anything. She told you what she wanted and that's all. YOu can't FORCE her to do anything she doesn't want to do.

"W is not giving us a chance to work through any of our problems and w is not giving us a chance to reconcile."

Because she doesn't love or even like you because of your behaviors then AND now.

"w is forcing us to divorce. Not I."

Stop acting innocent. Take responsibility for the things you do, accept her feelings, and change what you can. It doesn't mean that things won't get better.

"For the past seven months I have been trying to save our marriage and the reason I have been unsuccessful is because w has stubbornly decided on her own to end our marriage."

BS. You acted in a "crazy" fashion several times. Don't put it all on her.

"W has decided to not give love a chance. W has decided to not let anything I do affect her. W has decided."

I don't blame her. Why would she want to go back to someone who goes off the handle and doesn't have a hold on his emotions like you? Seriously?

"Any right minded person who has seen my efforts and knows my love and commitment for W and our family, would agree."

You're wrong. Commitment and love is different than actual action. You haven't changed which is why your W doesn't want to go back. Look at it from her POV. If she saw you as psycho and unbalanced, why would she want to go back to you? In fact, she was slowly opening up to you a little a couple of weeks ago before you had another emotional breakdown.

"I may have made some stupid mistakes in the past, but w is the one who's actions are forcing us into a divorce now, in real time, not in the past."

Sigh, again, you don't get it. It's the past that has gotten her to this point. The past matters. You can't sweep them under the rug and want to fix it just because YOU feel ready. She wanted to in the past and you didn't listen. YOU don't get to control when or when not to do things.

"There is nothing true or organic about what w is doing. It is forced action. She is aware of what she is doing, and she is making decisions based on a projected outcome."

Stop.

"W is lying to herself, me, and everyone around her including her family and children."

She's been VERY honest. You are the one who is lying to yourself. That's why you can't detach. You still can't believe this is happening to you, but you have to face that reality. ONce you face it and overcome the fear, you'll be able to detach and create a better plan.

"OK, now that I got that thought out of the way, because thats how she's making me feel right now."

NO! YOU make yourself feel that way. SHE hasn't done anything to you but be honest and tell you how she feels. YOU just don't accept that it's how she feels. And that's selfish.

"I cannot change her."

Yet you can't believe it.

"I understand the process of DB."

No you don't. At least not yet. You'll get there.

"The problem is that it feels to me that there is nothing I can do to change the outcome of where this is heading."

Stop trying to control things and mindread.

"I've moved out of the house beginning of this month. I have been sleeping on and off at a friends house for the past 4 months. Wondering if I should try to move back into the house by the end of this month?"

Are you serious? We told you not to move, but you were acting irrational, so you kept saying that you need to move to give space. NOW you want to go back before you've done anything in terms of getting your head on straight? You cry now. It'll get worse if you force your way back.

Find someplace else to stay. How is C going?

[movingon-1968]

^^^^ Everything He said!!!

You been told how to do things the RIGHT way, but, so far you haven't been doing it - which is ironic considering your screen-name...

[dorightman]

Bond, thanks for the 2x4's! Your perspective is much needed, especially when I go there ^^^^^^^!

Unfortunately I called w this morning and let it all out to her. The result is as imagined. Calmed it down and ended on "we need to talk with therapist". She said she has no time to talk about R unless we schedule MC.

I was triggered by two R conversations w started. One Sat about boundaries and yesterday I was trying to be playful and initiate some physical contact and her response was don't go there because you'll be disappointed. She has a boundary now that I can't touch her, I mean hug, kiss, massage, all unavailable.

This definitely frightens me. I'am afraid that all her efforts to separate from me and all her new boundaries will only push us further apart. Well they do....

So, I was pulled in and failed to stop talking about the R twice this weekend. Is it not a good idea to talk about the R at all? In MC?

THinking about sending her this email, but want your opinion first.

Dear W,

I'm sorry about this morning.
I realize that I'am still making it about me and my hurt feelings and I need to stop.
Believe me, I'm trying.
I'am trying to listen to you.
It's really challenging to not be effected emotionally by your coldness and indifference.
Again, I'm trying to fix things and I should just be your friend and listen to you.

I understand that the past matters, and I'am thankful you are willing to go to therapy with and without me to work through it to heal.

I act selfish when I don't want to accept how you feel, as much as it hurts.

Is that ok to send?

I have an apt not far from home now.

[azguy]

To me, you're still sounding too much like the victim, even after Bond's advice.

"I was triggered by two R conversations w started."

Your responses are under your control. If she wants to talk about the R, you can either do so, with enough detachment that it doesn't cause an argument, or just admit that you aren't in a state of mind where you're ready for R talk.

I wouldn't send that letter without significant changes. Here's why

"I'm sorry about this morning."

Too vague. Take responsibility for specific actions or don't bother to apologize.

"I realize that I'am still making it about me and my hurt feelings and I need to stop.
Believe me, I'm trying."

Doesn't sound like much of a commitment to me (as stand-in for your W)

It's really challenging to not be effected emotionally by your coldness and indifference.

REALLY BAD. You just changed the whole tone of the letter. I thought you were saying it's difficult because of problems you're working through. Turns out, you're blaming her for why it's so difficult. If you really believe this, you haven't really absorbed the DB concept. Dont' say anything like this.

"I understand that the past matters, and I'am thankful you are willing to go to therapy with and without me to work through it to heal."

Good. Acknowledge her positive steps. Let her know you notice them.

"I act selfish when I don't want to accept how you feel, as much as it hurts."

This is a really complicated statement. Can't figure out whether your beating yourself up, blaming her or both. I suggest keeping the statements simple.

[movingon-1968]

Dear W,

I'm sorry about this morning.
I realize that I'am still making it about me and my hurt feelings and I need to stop.
Believe me, I'm trying.
I'am trying to listen to you.
It's really challenging to not be effected emotionally by your coldness and indifference.
Again, I'm trying to fix things and I should just be your friend and listen to you.

I understand that the past matters, and I'am thankful you are willing to go to therapy with and without me to work through it to heal.

I act selfish when I don't want to accept how you feel, as much as it hurts.

If you send that as written, the ONLY thing you will have proven is that you HAVEN'T LEARNED A THING!!!

Actions speak louder than words, what message do you think your actions this weekend sent? What message do you think this letter will send?

You start of by apologizing vaguely, then turn right around and blame her for your actions and words. Actions and words which only YOU have control over. You're not a puppet sitting on her lap!

Re: Her boundaries - your inability to rein yourself in is what will ultimately push her away for good. Her boundaries are a defense mechanism to help her feel safe and comfortable. The more you show no respect for that, the more you need to practice waving goodbye.

Re-read what MrBond wrote earlier; learn from it...

[dorightman]

Makes sense. Thank you! So what would the best response be, no response?

[movingon-1968]

I don't know that I'd send ANYTHING. The damage is done.

From my perspective, your options are:

Option 1

• Start working today to better yourself and stop worrying about what your wife say or does, or how she acts
• Work on the specific complaints she had about you
• Learn to validate her feelings
• Don't worry about what you feel your W's issues are - you cannot change them no matter how hard you try. You can only change yourself
• Pay attention and look for positive results - it will happen slowly - this is a marathon, not a sprint

Option 2

• Pretty much the opposite of the above
• Continue doing what you are doing and continue getting the same results...

I'm sure there are other option that the veterans might suggest. If you feel you MUST respond, I would offer a heartfelt apology for your actions and words - keep it short and to the point, leaving your own feelings out of it.

[Breakdown]

I agree with just about everything Bond said. Listen...let this sink in. If you keep doing what you're doing, you have no chance in hell for reconciliation...none.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but your W sounds very stable, and very understanding. The fact that she's even willing to discuss things with a MC is awesome.

Unfortunately I called w this morning and let it all out to her. The result is as imagined.

Ya think?

..yesterday I was trying to be playful and initiate some physical contact..

Seriously? How can you even go there at this point?

This definitely frightens me. I'am afraid that all her efforts to separate from me and all her new boundaries will only push us further apart. Well they do....

She's asking for space...give it to her.

Is it not a good idea to talk about the R at all? In MC?

I wouldn't bring up the R at all. If she does, listen to her, validate. It might be best to not bring up any of your own thoughts for the time being...just listen.

THinking about sending her this email, but want your opinion first.

I probably wouldn't send anything, but if you do want to apologize, I'd keep it short, and specific. I absolutely would NOT tell her she's being cold and indifferent....wth is that about? Stop blaming her for everything....she doesn't control you.

[MrBond]

"Unfortunately I called w this morning and let it all out to her."

My suggestion is to STOP calling her unless it's kid related. You can't control yourself and your emotions right now.

"Calmed it down and ended on "we need to talk with therapist". She said she has no time to talk about R unless we schedule MC."

It's not a marriage issue. It's a private issue of yours.

"I was triggered by two R conversations w started. One Sat about boundaries and yesterday I was trying to be playful and initiate some physical contact"

Are you serious? She told you time and time again she needs space and for you to get yourself worked on. And you try being physical with her? What's wrong with this picture? You can't control yourself and that scares her as well as us posting to you.

"and her response was don't go there because you'll be disappointed."

Of course because you were only thinking of yourself.

"She has a boundary now that I can't touch her, I mean hug, kiss, massage, all unavailable."

Because you haven't earned it. She's right.

"This definitely frightens me."

Everything frightens you. What are you doing to stop that?

"I'am afraid that all her efforts to separate from me and all her new boundaries will only push us further apart. Well they do...."

The boundaries are for her protection, understand? They are a wall that she's formed around her because she doesn't want to be hurt any more or get sucked into YOUR drama because you can't handle yourself.

"So, I was pulled in and failed to stop talking about the R twice this weekend."

BACK OFF!

"Is it not a good idea to talk about the R at all?"

Have you even read DR? YOU are killing your M, not her.

"In MC?"

Don't even go to MC. You're not giving it the chance to heal yourself.

As for your letter...

"Dear W,

I'm sorry about this morning.
I realize that I'am still making it about me and my hurt feelings and I need to stop."

Yes you do need to stop.

"Believe me, I'm trying."

She has no reason to believe you because you haven't.

"It's really challenging to not be effected emotionally by your coldness and indifference."

Get over it. You caused her to be like this. The "coldness" and "indifference" is her way of protecting herself. Start understanding that and BACK OFF with the pressure.

"Again, I'm trying to fix things and I should just be your friend and listen to you."

Which she doesn't want.

"I understand that the past matters, and I'am thankful you are willing to go to therapy with and without me to work through it to heal."

Now you're mindreading her. YOU don't know why she's going to therapy. It's not to get back together with you.

"I act selfish when I don't want to accept how you feel,"

Yes and your letter reflects that you're still selfish.

" as much as it hurts."

See? You made it about YOU again and YOUR feelings.

"Is that ok to send?"

H@ll no. SHOW her you've changed over time. DO NOT pressure her and STOP bringing up the R.

I have an apt not far from home now."