25yearsmlc

[subguy]

Sorry for your loss and I'm happy to hear he had a positive impact on your life. At the end of the day, it's family and friends: how we choose to treat them and the relationships we cultivated with them.

[labug]

I'm grateful for this thread because it's made me see some things my Sons might be facing as they wend their way through all of this.

Thanks.

[Valeska19]

Thank you for sharing 25. His story is actually something that's been on my mind for awhile.. ever since Denver's post to the newcomers a few weeks ago.

Let's see if I can put it into actual words vs thoughts (although I fear I'll be put on moderation).

I think many people come to DB treating it like a tactic or a manipulation tool to get their spouses back. Of course it makes sense.. they are fearful and hurting.. and desperate to save their marriage.

But I will argue that if you are using DB as a manipulation tool - then your changes are short lived. There will either come a time where it's not working and you will ask yourself if you need to change it up.......

.... or you reconcile.. only to find yourself fighting the same patterns in another hardship at a later time.

IMO - DBing is a tool to be used as a way to discover how to love better. There is no point "doing what works" when it is not motivated from a place of love....

... and that's where I think people get off track.

What works are loving actions... period. Whether that leads you back to your spouse or leads you to becoming a better persion... or in some cases both....

... all are WINNING SITUATIONS.

So I think many times people look at DB tools from a selfish heart because again.. it is consumed by fear in the beginning.

For example: Look at people who go NC. I wonder how many truly do that from a loving place vs. a teaching place. I often wonder if they convince themselves it's a loving action......

especially when there is no response from the WAS. LBSers start questioning their tactics because it's "not working".. and look to change it up. When instead, they should be asking themselves the hard question "just because it's not working... does it make it wrong?"

... I certainly question my own motives many times when I started.

But wrapping up this tangent, this story is just great.. because it's example of WHY we are truly here. On this earth, on this forum.

Our goal is not to save our marriage, it is learning how to love our spouses better. Because in the end... that will truly be the ONLY thing that might save it.

Now whether that's showing some tough love in your m, or showing more grace and compassion - every situation is unique.

But every situation MUST have the same motive. It needs to have the same perspective.

I just love that your friend chose LOVE over any tactic to get his wife back... and thankfully they reconcilled...

but he died knowing he loved well. His wife knew he loved her well. His friends/family knew he loved well.

And I'm sure in heaven - his father is saying "well done kiddo".

Sooo inspiring... thank you for sharing the story.

Sorry for the hijack.

[25yearsmlc]

Thank you for sharing 25. His story is actually something that's been on my mind for awhile.. ever since Denver's post to the newcomers a few weeks ago.

Let's see if I can put it into actual words vs thoughts (although I fear I'll be put on moderation).

I think many people come to DB treating it like a tactic or a manipulation tool to get their spouses back. Of course it makes sense.. they are fearful and hurting.. and desperate to save their marriage.

Absolute agreement with this^^^.

I came here looking for 2 things. I wanted to be declared RIGHT and I wanted to know "the secret"....you know, the THING I had to do or say to get h to snap out of it and see the truth and come home.

I was wrong to want either of those things in that way, and I sure did not get them

But I will argue that if you are using DB as a manipulation tool - then your changes are short lived. There will either come a time where it's not working and you will ask yourself if you need to change it up.......

.... or you reconcile.. only to find yourself fighting the same patterns in another hardship at a later time.

YES^^^.


IMO - DBing is a tool to be used as a way to discover how to love better. There is no point "doing what works" when it is not motivated from a place of love....

... and that's where I think people get off track.

Yes!!^^....and the converse is true also. When one does what works ---------

but does not LIKE it, b/c that behavior is too "doormat" or "not teaching a lesson!!" so they resist it or stop doing it b/c it's "too easy on the WAS"
so they stop.

Then they say it failed and want to try something new and that always seems to mean, something harsher. At least imo.



What works are loving actions... period. Whether that leads you back to your spouse or leads you to becoming a better persion... or in some cases both....

... all are WINNING SITUATIONS.

Loving HEALTHY actions, yes I'd say I agree. Sometimes a boundary is set, b/c of actual self respect and IS the loving thing to do.

But the 'teach a lesson' & "show the consequences' are NOT loving; they're not boundaries, they're just punitive.


So I think many times people look at DB tools from a selfish heart because again.. it is consumed by fear in the beginning.

For example: Look at people who go NC. I wonder how many truly do that from a loving place vs. a teaching place. I often wonder if they convince themselves it's a loving action......


for me the "teaching" = morally superior, & the need to be right, and it also comes off as tad punitive to me. I never saw it work either, btw.


Sometimes going NC is also the laziest or easiest thing to do. They might claim it's hard but they mean 'not arguing about it again" is hard.

It took me months to a year before I really looked in the mirror and asked myself how I GOT MYSELF in that place. NOT all blaming h or all me...

but figuring out what role I played in the show called "My Life".


especially when there is no response from the WAS. LBSers start questioning their tactics because it's "not working".. and look to change it up. When instead, they should be asking themselves the hard question "just because it's not working... does it make it wrong?"

You mean like "I've been kind to the WAS now for weeks...and they're still not home!! SO, it's not working. SO, I better stop being kind!" ( ????) I hear that...and I've seen it. Interesting insight.

Same for other 180s. if you wear a new cologne YOU like or enroll in a class to study a language you always wanted to learn, and they do not notice,

don't drop the dang class!! It DID WORK b/c it made you a more interesting educated person. If this is all about getting your spouse back then most of us will "FAIL".

Change the definition of what works, from "got my WAS back", to "I'm a better/happier person."


... I certainly question my own motives many times when I started.

But wrapping up this tangent, this story is just great.. because it's example of WHY we are truly here. On this earth, on this forum.

Our goal is not to save our marriage, it is learning how to love our spouses better. Because in the end... that will truly be the ONLY thing that might save it.

Now whether that's showing some tough love in your m, or showing more grace and compassion - every situation is unique.

But every situation MUST have the same motive. It needs to have the same perspective.

I just love that your friend chose LOVE over any tactic to get his wife back... and thankfully they reconcilled...

but he died knowing he loved well. His wife knew he loved her well. His friends/family knew he loved well.

And I'm sure in heaven - his father is saying "well done kiddo".

Sooo inspiring... thank you for sharing the story.

Sorry for the hijack.

Hey, the guy made quite an impression on me. My sister said they actually had divorced and remarried in ONE year. ?? She does not know why the W left him...but yes it had a happy ending, or at least a bittersweet one.

No apologies needed. Not a hijack really...a tangent? Sure. but I love them. Segues are overrated...

[Valeska19]

yes perhaps hijack was the wrong word... tangent.. for sure!

So how did the family meeting go?

[bustingout]

If I may extend the tangent a bit.... :-)

25 that story of your friend brought tears to my eyes. Simply beautiful.

I find this discussion extremely meaningful.

I agree that when I first came here I was scared and looking for the magic pill I had yet to find. Magic words and actions that would end this. I didn't realize until many months later how much this journey is about love...love for oneself and love for others.


IMO - DBing is a tool to be used as a way to discover how to love better. There is no point "doing what works" when it is not motivated from a place of love....

... and that's where I think people get off track.

Yes!!^^....and the converse is true also. When one does what works ---------

but does not LIKE it, b/c that behavior is too "doormat" or "not teaching a lesson!!" so they resist it or stop doing it b/c it's "too easy on the WAS"
so they stop.

Then they say it failed and want to try something new and that always seems to mean, something harsher. At least imo.

^^^^THIS is something I find challenging. It is a still (for me) a conscious effort to focus on standing in love and letting go in love, while at the same time protecting broken hearts and maintaining boundaries. Giving space to our needs to find self-love, self-respect and self-esteem once again, without damaging the M/R even more, especially with kids involved. To let go of what seems ‘natural’ i.e. ‘punishing’ the other party, OR to try and reach out, which ends up often looking like pursuant behavior to the WAS.

The balance between acting out of love and not feeling like a ‘doormat’ or even a pursuer is where I find a struggle. Is love given even when one removes themselves out of harms way? Is showing myself love by not initiating contact with H (except for matter of the kids), also extending love to H? It may be since he has declared he does not want me in his life. Is that respect for H? Is it respect for myself?

This tangent is very thought-provoking. It forces me to dig deep for a love that should not be tainted in judgment, bias or bitterness.

I appreciate all of the time and support and advice and thoughts here. Thank you. There is always so much to learn.

[keep_going]

Thanks guys for this thought-provoking tangent. It has helped me go back inside myself and ask the tough questions.

I completely agree with Val and 25, and as it has happened very, very often, I share the exact same questions / concerns as Busting and I don't think I could have worded them any better than her.

[BklynMom]

DBing has taught me so much.

2 years ago when my H left. I would have said I just want him to come back.

Now I dont want him back unless he is interested in improving and working on himself.

I dont want him back if he is drinking.

I dont want him back if he isnt willing to go to therapy.

I dont want him back if he is in complete denial of his part.

For months I prayed to God that he would just come home, its a miracle and a tribute to DB that I was able to write the words above.

I love tangents

[25yearsmlc]

Tangents? Stream of consciousness? AND Who needs segues?

(I bet we're geniuses for this...that's my story & I'm sticking with it).

So tonight d15 approaches and says, "am I supposed to go to T with you guys, or the siblings, or alone?"

I said, "well w/your siblings, and maybe your dad too...

...unless you want to go alone too?"

So she says "I'd rather go alone INSTEAD of with everyone else...just by myself".

THAT^^ was a surprise...this child is the unflappable one, the one who seems to care the least about what's going on or talking things out. She resents h, but would prefer leaving things alone.

She's also confident in a weirdly mature way. Here's one example. She's a good basketball player, now on Varsity as a sophomore. Last summer her coach (who has underwhelmed me, but that's another story) said in front of everyone

"D15, You're the WORST DEFENSIVE PLAYER ON THE TEAM"....

Aside from this belng flat out wrong/inaccurate, I was flabbergasted that he said it at all to anyone. I truly thought I had misheard the wording b/c others near me were talking after the game. Then there was silence.

D15 was/is the leading scorer on her team, and the captain. (Regardless, who the heck talks like that to a 14 y/o girl on ANY team?)

I played sports in college on scholarship, so I've had a lot of coaches. Never once heard a coach say anything like that to anyone on a team I played for...I wanted to hit him.

ANYHOW, I approached D15 *(then 14 btw) and said "Yikes, D, are you okay?"

She said "I'm fine. I know I played well. I don't know what's bugging him but that's HIS problem. It's not me".

Um, hello? I was THIRTY y/o before I was in a place where someone else's problem wasn't my fault. She just gets it. I've always admired that about her, and found it a little funny.

So yes, this surprised me. And yes I'll make sure she sees someone.

When H & I spoke about what H wanted to discuss, it was all present day stuff. He has legit issues with our older kids living here (they're moving out in June and saving money in the meantime) and not helping enough. At this stage of life, h wishes it was just us and d15, financially speaking.

When I remind him that d15 only had both her siblings with her in the home til she was 7 (b/c her brother left for college at age 18 when she was in 2nd grade) and that since HE (h) is gone so much, it's nice having the older siblings here for me and d15, h gets it.

But he has deeply mixed feelings. At their age, h and i were married, I was working as a L, h was in med school, & we were parents. We never lived with our parents once married, and we worked all the time.

At one point I said to h, "you know, the girls particularly are still hurt by your leaving. They felt abandoned..."

and h said "you think they're upset about stuff from way back then??

I said YES I do...

but I find it amazing to me that he thinks the past is over for them...b/c he & I processed it.

Anyhow the living situation is changing soon. So it's a temporary situation that has a huge upside. IMHO.

I think we have two options, it goes well and provides some fresher loving memories of our family getting a 2nd chance,

or

we can save a few bucks and kick them out now...

I ASSUME h's fears are that we're being taken advantage of and enabling. I know he's also hurt that the kids don't ask him a lot about his work or interests. But most kids that age don't seem to ask many questions of the adults in their lives that i know of. Do they?

And while he has a point, truly, it's not that high on my list of concerns. But I need to make sure he knows where I'm coming from. I care.

But I can only take one thing at a time. And that's d15. Next would probably be my mom, who is rapidly declining. By the end of this year, she won't be aware of us enough to matter...or so it seems.

So that's the update.

[25yearsmlc]

DBing has taught me so much.

2 years ago when my H left. I would have said I just want him to come back.

Now I dont want him back unless he is interested in improving and working on himself.

which is vague but I understand what you mean. I think if you detail this a bit, so you know something about what it would look like, it might help. Especially if he were interested in doing this. He'd want to know "how" to...you know?

I dont want him back if he is drinking.

this^^ is a nice CLEAR boundary. Simple.

I dont want him back if he isnt willing to go to therapy.

again, clear enough, simple enough


I dont want him back if he is in complete denial of his part.

Do you mean that he owns his part, right? Not ALL?

I agree that him being in complete denial would be an insurmountable obstacle to reconciliation. I can see that. I mean, that's like saying "come on home, let's take a chance on you repeating it next month..." So of course you couldn't. He would have to own something...

But my guess is that he'll never fully own his part, b/c he literally has a different point of view and does not recall things you recall OR in the way you recall them...so you may need some flexibility on this b/c he justified his departure, right? So you're asking him to "UN learn" all his rationalizations and jusfitications.

All you can "do" to aid that, is be different from the image his justifications said you were. Make sense?


For months I prayed to God that he would just come home, its a miracle and a tribute to DB that I was able to write the words above.

I love tangents

Amen to this one (tangent, that is).