Treading water

[MrBond]

Has she initiated any physical contact at all? And I don't mean light hugs. If not, then maybe stop it for now and continue to act happy. She may start wondering why you suddenly stopped.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for checking in labug and PON.

I appreciate your straight forward responses. I have backed off of the pursuit compared to several months ago but I do need to continue to back off more. This is hard. Nobody said it would be easy. The weekends seem to be when I backslide some. Probably because I am around her more. Maybe I need to start getting out of the house even more on the weekends.

For my self growth: reading (I have never been a reader except for the sports page), trying to change my passive aggressive tendencies and spending more time with "just the guys". I have always been very involved with my kids and I will continue to be. Except now there are 3 of us instead of 4 that do things together.


Good to hear that you are reading more. A whole world out there to put in our heads, instead of mind reading...and it's a 180 too!

I think I am the next great fortune teller. I may even head to Vegas to cash in on this. Actually, I try to read her mind all of the time and it is awful. I have to stop doing this before I go totally insane.

Good observation. REMEMBER IT and change that behavior. It's NOT helping.



I love your statement about " start doing things and don't worry about W reaction."
I definitely think about her reaction prior to doing just about anything. I know, over analyzing.

This^^ is no way to live and it's not attractive. Even if you guessed correctly 100% of the time, it would not be appealing b/c she'd know you were not being authentic.

If you examine your heart thoroughly and KNOW that your pending action is authentic, not manipulative, not trying to control outcome, then do it & be at peace. Hold your head high and be alright.


Both of you eluded to, do what is right and don't worry about what she thinks. That is a very good point.

Yes they alluded to that, but my guess is that you don't always know what's right. There's a fine, shifting line between setting a healthy boundary for our own protection AND letting a wounded ego speak for us.

So, all you can do is look in your heart and see if the comment or act is coming from a place of love and llight...or a desire to "show her a consequence" or "teach her a lesson" b/c those are the excuses we use to tell ourselves that a puntive act that comes from anger, is justified. You sound as if you are increasingly self aware.

At some point you'll have to trust yourself...

Thanks again for all of your insight and support.

One more question. I know I need to stop pursuing. But if I initiate ML, she usually will. I think that this helps keep some sort of connection which is a good thing but it is definitely pursuing. Any thoughts?

Just repeating some of what MY DB coach said to me when I asked this question....

1) it's an intensely personal and private marital issue. Do not let anyone, including me, tell you what to do on this...

2) How do you feel about ML and or yourself, afterwards? If you feel more connected or closer in any way, even if only temporary, that has value. If you feel used or degraded in anyway, that's a whole other type of experience. And it might not be healthy for you.

3) IN a marriage, which you are still, sex cannot be a weapon. You can't withhold it or deny it or do a passive aggressive thing with it as if it's not an essential dimension to the marriage.

My question is why would you NOT want to ML? B/C it's pursuit?

How has she said "no thanks" in the past, and how did you respond then?

B/C if your typical response was furious silence or it lead to a fight, then she may feel compelled to say yes to avoid conflict.

But if you typically handled a "no thanks" in a calmer more mature way, then why not let her decide? Why do you assume that she will say yes when she means "no"?

SIDENOTE=sex is the ONE thing we can only do with our spouses, (and keep our vows.) When one partner denies it to the other, over time, it divides the couple.

Personally, I'm always amazed by the SSMs who have denying spouse who is "shocked" by a WAS who wants out of the marriage OR who has an affair.

They'll mention in passing that they "had not had sex for a year" and you ask them what they thought was going to happen if no sex ever occurred...and their answer is usually "NOT an affair!"

In my opinion and it's only that and I do NOT know your family --but in general, I don't think any man or woman ever goes home to the great sex they never had.

Good luck Grrr....seriously. Keep at this.

So you know, In 2006 I gave our m a "10% chance of success" but here I am...still here. Last weekend H and I went hiking with some DBers...all women and my h. He had a good time and so did they.

It made me happy. I'd NEVER have predicted the activity last weekend, those 6 years ago.

[Grizz]

PON, Bond and 25, I can't express enough how grateful I am that you vets are providing your insight to me.

Bond, W has initiated. The last time was about 3-4 weeks ago. Actually the most recent time, I turned over in bed and hugged/held her ( hoping to ML) but she actually made the "first move".

25, early on after we ML, I did feel sad. We actually discussed whether we should continue to ML because we were both so confused and we both felt sad afterwards. After thinking about this for a few days I came to the conclusion that we should continue to ML. I told her how I felt. Long story short, we resumed. I don't feel that sadness anymore. I am not sure why, I just don't.

"Why would I not want to ML?"... My only answer is that it may be considered pursuit which DB is strongly against.

When she has declined I have been able to take it in stride. I have not shown any anger or hurt.

I would like to say that I do not try very often. I was very fortunate in that we have always had a great sex life. ML was never an issue. So just to put it into perspective, our sex life has really decreased in frequency.

I guess I will continue to try to occasionally initiate ML with no expectations that she will be willing.

Again, thank you guys for your insight. I hope you will continue to check in on my sitch and chime in whenever you see fit. You give me such hope.

[25yearsmlc]

PON, Bond and 25, I can't express enough how grateful I am that you vets are providing your insight to me.

Bond, W has initiated. The last time was about 3-4 weeks ago. Actually the most recent time, I turned over in bed and hugged/held her ( hoping to ML) but she actually made the "first move".

This is a good sign. And a bit unusual.

25, early on after we ML, I did feel sad. We actually discussed whether we should continue to ML because we were both so confused and we both felt sad afterwards. After thinking about this for a few days I came to the conclusion that we should continue to ML. I told her how I felt. Long story short, we resumed. I don't feel that sadness anymore. I am not sure why, I just don't.

"Why would I not want to ML?"... My only answer is that it may be considered pursuit which DB is strongly against.

it's not a universal rule. The only universal rule is to do what helps the m and not do what hurts it.

Occasionally I think people reach for this too fast so they can do "nothing" and call it detaching/not pursuing. They're sitting on their hands though, DOING nothing new or different.

SOMETIMES the LBSer wasn't showing a lot of interest in the WAS (or so the WAS thought/said)..that's a perfect time TO pursue more, not less...

When she has declined I have been able to take it in stride. I have not shown any anger or hurt.

Good!! That means she's not saying yes to avoid conflict or escalation. She is saying "yes".

I would like to say that I do not try very often. I was very fortunate in that we have always had a great sex life. ML was never an issue. So just to put it into perspective, our sex life has really decreased in frequency.

Having a strong physical connection was a strength we had as well. And I can only tell you that it's not as common as you'd like to think. Sometimes you have to trust your instinct, and hers. I think if you can nurture or remind her of this connection, giving her something to miss DOES help.


I guess I will continue to try to occasionally initiate ML with no expectations that she will be willing.

Just curious...are you concerned that if you initiate more than "occassionally" she'll feel pressured? OR reject you? I get that...otherwise, though, why lessen this to "occasional" if it's a helpful thing? Definitely have no expectatios and be FINE if she says no thanks. It's not as personal as you might think.

Again, thank you guys for your insight. I hope you will continue to check in on my sitch and chime in whenever you see fit. You give me such hope.

Well, I see hope.

[Maritimer]

Looks like you are doing a great job with the DB Grizz!

You are fortunate to have a physical connection with your spouse, Most of us do not have it so fortunate. Great advise from the vets in this thread.

[Grizz]

25, I don't try to initiate more often because essentially I don't want to press my luck. She said early on (when I was doing all of the wrong things after BD) that I was smothering her. I don't want her to start thinking that again. I also don't think it is a bad idea to back off some so that she REALLY wants to ML when we do.

GALing tonight. Heading to a bball game tonight by myself. Actually looking forward to it.

Maritimer, thanks for checking in.

I have received some excellent information and insight the past few days on here. Thanks again to everyone that has helped or just stopped by to give some encouragement.

[25yearsmlc]

your answer about why not more initiating, makes sense.

Enjoy GAL and when you can, meet new people. People who do not know your sitch and people who don't know her.

NEW peeps. It helps the PMA, it lessens the smothering and the obsessing and it gets your mind off her...

which coincidentally might make you more interesting and intriguing while not being the reason for GAL...tends to make you more appealing to her.

make sense?

[Grizz]

It does make sense. I will be gone for several hours on Saturday taking both of my girls to birthday parties. That should be a good opportunity to talk to some people that I don't see very often. It will also be good to just get out of the house too.

[PatientMan]

Regarding ML and written by Michele:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=75945#Post75945

Many times people wonder whether or not to have sex with their estranged spouses. Here's my response:

As I always say in my seminars, there are no single, one-size-fits-all solutions to any situation, this situation included. However, I do have some thoughts about the issue of having sex with your spouse when separated either physically or emotionally and/or if there is another person in the picture.

For starters, if you do decide to be physical, it's essential to use caution and be smart about protecting yourself from sexually transmitted diseases.

Having said that, let's explore the emotional side of things. If your spouse is interested in being sexual but shows ambivalence about or even disinterest in your marriage, it makes sense that you might feel uncertain about being close physically. You might worry about feeling used or cheapened in some way. IF this is an overriding feeling, don't do it. However, I look at it another way.

Sexuality is a special way that people connect with each other. Although some people have sex simply to experience a pleasant physical sensation, that is rarely all that happens. Having sex leads to having emotions. If someone is doubting his or her commitment to a marriage, experiencing feelings of connection during lovemaking is a good thing and it might increase the chances that the confused spouse will feel inclined to work on the marriage. Obviously, it doesn't always work this way and as with everything else, the proof is in the pudding. But if you're willing/wanting to be intimate, it makes sense to me to do so and then watch the results. See how your spouse reacts and how you feel about it after the fact.

I know many couples whose physical relationship saved the day. Even when they couldn't talk, constantly fought, their lovemaking was the lifeline between them. Eventually, because their physical connection reminded them that beneath their problems, there was still a lot of love, they were able to work things out. I say, "stack the deck in your favor, if you can."

But not everyone feels comfortable with this solution, and that's okay. You have to feel in your heart that you are doing the right thing. If it feels wrong to you, don't do it. If it feels okay, comfortable or even exciting, give yourself permission to enjoy it.

One word of caution. If you've been intimate with your commitment-phobic spouse for a long time and nothing improves, it's time to rethink your actions. Your relationship may have become too comfortable. Perhaps s/he is taking things for granted. Time to consider a change.

Michele

[Grizz]

Thanks Mack. That is some very good information/insight.