Life, One Day at a Time (22 months)

[RockJC]

I think there are situations where a marriage should be ended. I just don't believe most failed marriages are actually in those situations. I don't believe mine is. Isn't that the whole point of DB?

Our perceptions are so clouded. My W has a mother and 2 aunts who have been divorced. I have asked them, and they all say that in their situation, divorce was the best option. I don't believe that. In each of their stories, I see self-centered people who didn't give their marriage a priority. People who were spiritually lost and had immature perceptions of what it means to be happy, or to love. These people later found happiness, not because they changed partners, but because these perceptions matured.

There is an underlying truth to these situations. Was living with you truly bad enough to justify thinking "he would die in our relationship". Did he honestly try "Everything he could". Did he really have "No other choice", but to have an affair. You no that the TRUTH is "NO". This isn't just your "View", it is reality.

My thinking is going the other way. I am beginning to see things more "Black and White".

Mature people base a marriage on unconditional love. They take the time to nurture the relationship. They are honest and dependable. They learn how to communicate and resolve problems. But, mostly, they are committed to making the marriage work and demonstrate that commitment by not giving up when things get tough. I know that in my marriage, neither my wife or I truly understood these things. Maybe it takes a failed marriage to learn these things. Maybe some people never do.

[keep_going]

RockJC's post has really made me think - thank you for sharing and sorry Ad for the hijack.

I agree that there are situations were marriages should end. Physical abuse is clearly one most people would put in that category.

I also don't believe mine is one of those M that should end, or I wouldn't be on these boards. I thought we should have had a lot more fight in us given the fact that at bomb time, we had two toddlers and I was just 9 weeks pregnant. Yet, my H honestly thought that he would die if he had stayed in this M and that our kids' lives would be forever ruined.

Was he immature, spiritually lost, or simply someone with a different view from mine of what is acceptable in a M? He truly believes he nurtured our R and was honest and dependable but didn't receive the same back from me. He believes he tried his best until the day he left to communicate and resolve problems and I simply never responded.

While I might not agree with him, I can't really argue because we are not talking about something that either of us could prove or disprove beyond a shadow of a doubt. So in that sense, it's really not all black and white in my view.

I do completely agree that we both should have learned many tough lessons about M and love before giving up, yet we didn't. So maybe you are right (and it's sad), that perhaps it will take our failed M to learn those lessons. At least my H believes so as he has told me he is trying to learn from all the mistakes he made with me so he can have a better R with OW.

[BrightFuture]

I can relate. My H said that he doesn’t want legal divorce yet. He didn’t me give a time frame either.

I think it is disrespectful of your H to spend money in sex shop knowing that you would see the charges in the card. I guess he is truly absorbed in himself and doesn’t understand the boundaries. I’m so sorry you have to go through this. Try not to think about this. I don’t really know what I would do in this situation, so I cannot give you any advice.

[adinva]

Thanks BrightFuture. It is just really good to have people here to talk to. Thanks for reading my thread.

I guess the upside to not having a timeframe means for now you get all the time you need. Hang in there!

[adinva]

Rock, maybe those people were self centered and immature, and didn't know yet what they knew later. But the thing is, you can't wish them more mature or less self centered. Fact is that when they were in the marriage that failed, they probably weren't capable of saving it. That's sad. I don't think most failed marriages are people willfully choosing that option over other options that they can see.

Or, at least in the case of my husband, I don't think it's that he has low morals or a looser hold on the commitment of marriage, or is too lazy to work on the marriage. I don't think he's choosing an easy route. I think he really believes love can just go away, and attraction can just be forever gone, even if he didn't believe that before he believes it now because he feels it and is living it. I think if this was an easy out for him he wouldn't have spent the last two years hiding in bed all day long. I have total faith and can clearly see how we could get back to each other...but he does not and cannot. That's sad.

I've really lost my outrage. I don't know anymore what I thought I knew. I really am still mad at him and at the way he handled this, but it's about as useless as being mad at him for being a quadriplegic. Something in him broke and neither of us can fix it. Blaming him and judging him really doesn't do me any good, make me feel any better, or bring us any closer, doesn't help my kids, doesn't garner me any helpful support, it's just pointless.

I'm not perfect, and I still do blame and judge, but I got knocked off my pedestal here a long time ago and it doesn't make me feel good to think less of him.

[25yearsmlc]

I think there are situations where a marriage should be ended. I just don't believe most failed marriages are actually in those situations. I don't believe mine is. Isn't that the whole point of DB?

Though I can't speak for yours, (ultimately only you and your w can/will) I do agree that most marriages should not just end but that yes, some should. I think MWD posits two thoughts on this.

First, she outright says in Div Remedy that "Some marriages will end" no matter what the LBSer does. And that's clearly true. Sometimes a WAS really is DONE.

And the other times are when we'd probably all agree, it's over. Violence, insanity untreated, etc. No real debate here.

Our perceptions are so clouded. My W has a mother and 2 aunts who have been divorced. I have asked them, and they all say that in their situation, divorce was the best option. I don't believe that.

Well obviously they know things you/we cannot know about their m's. But it's a surprising thing they say. I read that 3/4 of divorced people, 5 years later, regret their divorce AND OR believe they could have worked things out if they'd had certain tools, tried harder, etc...

so I'm surprised they both still say their divorces were right. Maybe they just don't want to be "wrong" to have divorced...were they the ones who filed??

In each of their stories, I see self-centered people who didn't give their marriage a priority. People who were spiritually lost and had immature perceptions of what it means to be happy, or to love. These people later found happiness, not because they changed partners, but because these perceptions matured.

Just so I'm clear, you mean the aunts (or others who divorced and should not have), later are happier b/c THEY changed, not b/c they divorced? I mean, I can see that. But I can see either, and it's also very hard to prove...

There's a book I saw but didn't read. The TITLE of it hit me. The title is "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay". I imagine many LBSers are pretty much thinking along those lines and wondering which it is...

There is an underlying truth to these situations. Was living with you truly bad enough to justify thinking "he would die in our relationship". Did he honestly try "Everything he could". Did he really have "No other choice", but to have an affair. You no that the TRUTH is "NO". This isn't just your "View", it is reality.

My thinking is going the other way. I am beginning to see things more "Black and White".

Mature people base a marriage on unconditional love.

I don't mean to quibble with this sentiment.^^^. But I'm not sure what it means. People use it differently.

There are some around that mistreat their spouses and then claim outrage that the spouse wants out. They themselves have no intention of significantly changing or improving how they treat their spouse but they insist on staying together "no matter what" and for some of them, it's a carte blanche on mistreating their spouse. Not beating them, but neglecting and treating with contempt, etc.

I'm sincerely curious about this for reasons related to another poster. I have to ask, what is unconditional love, in the face of cruel or indifferent behavior from your spouse, over several years? Absent actual physical abuse, isn't it really a case of knowing when it really is too bad to stay?

Don't get me wrong. Clearly people divorce too easily. And I meet people getting divorced who are not on this site, and treat their divorce as if a terrible thing happened to their car...fortunately, their insurance will eventually get them suitable transportation and meanwhile...inconveniences abound...but NOT heartbreak.

I'm confused and baffled by those people. Did they not truly love each other at one point, or is this their coping mechanism OR did they stop caring and let apathy take over? When I hear "we grew apart" and there's no OP, I have to wonder...in those cases NO it's not too bad to stay.

They simply have no motivation OR mechanism for change and growth, I think.


They take the time to nurture the relationship. They are honest and dependable. They learn how to communicate and resolve problems. But, mostly, they are committed to making the marriage work and demonstrate that commitment by not giving up when things get tough. I know that in my marriage, neither my wife or I truly understood these things. Maybe it takes a failed marriage to learn these things. Maybe some people never do.

I hear what you are saying. But the irony is that 2nd marriages have less chance of success than first ones...so I'm not sure who is learning what.

But I'm glad you're trying.

[25yearsmlc]

Rock, maybe those people were self centered and immature, and didn't know yet what they knew later. But the thing is, you can't wish them more mature or less self centered. Fact is that when they were in the marriage that failed, they probably weren't capable of saving it. That's sad. I don't think most failed marriages are people willfully choosing that option over other options that they can see.

Or, at least in the case of my husband, I don't think it's that he has low morals or a looser hold on the commitment of marriage, or is too lazy to work on the marriage. I don't think he's choosing an easy route.

FWIW, your h does not sound happy. He sounds miserable.


I think he really believes love can just go away, and attraction can just be forever gone, even if he didn't believe that before he believes it now because he feels it and is living it. I think if this was an easy out for him he wouldn't have spent the last two years hiding in bed all day long. I have total faith and can clearly see how we could get back to each other...but he does not and cannot. That's sad.

Yes it is.


I've really lost my outrage. I don't know anymore what I thought I knew. I really am still mad at him and at the way he handled this, but it's about as useless as being mad at him for being a quadriplegic. Something in him broke and neither of us can fix it. Blaming him and judging him really doesn't do me any good, make me feel any better, or bring us any closer, doesn't help my kids, doesn't garner me any helpful support, it's just pointless.


Pointless...and harmful. To you, to your sons, and maybe even to him. You're onto something.

I'm not perfect, and I still do blame and judge, but I got knocked off my pedestal here a long time ago and it doesn't make me feel good to think less of him.

Well said.

In case I wasn't clear in summarizing the TOME I wrote you, let me sum it up.

RE the pot.

Your son cannot smoke now & in the near future, b/c

1) IF he gets caught, it will affect HIS IMMEDIATE future in a big fat way

2) YOU could suffer consequences as well, legally & financially. Losing him to a boarding school (or your h), will also hurt your s12 and would be VERY UNFUN for s15.

3) Lacrosse...College...all gone, for that?

4) the very real dangers of being with under the influenced drivers. Aside from his own life, how would he feel being part of an accident that killed another person? How does one cope with that on their shoulders?

5) Besides, pot will still be around in a few years. He can party later on his own terms.

But taking him to a substance abuse clinic, unless he's high every day, seems like you might be getting him to a point where he thinks you're "going reefer madness" on him. You risk losing credibility and right now you two seem to have a good enough r that he'd feel remorse for harming you. Is that true?

6) the LYING to you, is totally unacceptable. For me, that hurts the most & that'd be where the most significant consequences would come. If the lie also relates to pot, so he's also breaking a promise, that's a double whammy.

When your h goes off on his rants, the thing that bothers me the most is how much lying HE does. Still...and yet gets this zero tolerance badge on his chest that HE sees as some testament to his honor...but it's the opposite. I think your son sees thru him. And it hurts.

You wrote:

"I want to talk to S15 and try to figure out how I can connect with him in a way that's meaningful to get him to choose for himself things that are not illegal, dangerous, and liable to close doors in his life. H says the ONLY way to do this is to come down hard with the voice of authority and demand respect, nothing but total respect, in keeping the house neat and all other ways. And if that doesn't work, boarding school."

What you say, makes total sense to me. What HE says, does not. I see his role in your son's need to escape. But I guess if your h is, just NOT self aware, he can't see this. Has your h ever gotten something positive out of counselling?

Wish I had more helpful things for you...

Hang in there Ad...this too, shall pass.

[RockJC]

//Mature people base a marriage on unconditional love.

I don't mean to quibble with this sentiment.^^^. But I'm not sure what it means. People use it differently.//

For me, it means viewing "Love" as a verb, and not an adjective. I choose to Love vs I feel Love. Once you view love as a verb that you choose, then you must decide when to choose it. Conditional love says that I will choose to love in reciprocation for being loved by you. Unconditional love syas that I will choose to love regardless of how I am being treated by you.

I think AD is giving us an excellent example of unconditional love. Her husband is emotionally abusing her. He is insulting her by shopping at a sex shop. He is rejecting her by leaving the marriage. And yet AD is choosing to continue to love her husband. This is how mature people who understand love behave. The decision to love was made the day she took her vows.

Immature Love = I feel love for you
Conditional Love = I love you because you love me
Unconditional Love = I Love you because I am a person who Loves.

The easisest example of unconditional love to understand is the love we have for our children. We don't stop loving them when they misbehave. The most powerful example of unconditional love is Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:8 says: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

I have rejected God, rebelled against him and refused him Love. Yet, he chooses to love me and expresses that love through the ultimate sacrifice of death on a cross. He does this, not becuase of a feeling, or in return for my love, but because he IS love.

[25yearsmlc]

I agree that love is not merely a noun but a verb. It requires action. It means choosing to love, even when it's not easy and even when you cannot think of a "reason" for loving someone.

Sometimes our spouses do Not act "loving" or "lovable" - but we choose to love them, anyhow.

This^^^ I accept & believe.

[Crimson]

I agree with this and have really learned it over the course of my ordeal. One of the more frustrating things for me is that I don't think my XW sees it this way.

I would never vocalize this to her, but I (all of us, really) have a million reasons why I could just shut down and say I don't love anymore. Most of us here have all been through hell in one way or another. Somehow I am blessed (cursed?) with the ability to look past the hurt, all the things that were said and done and STILL love her. Like I said, it just gets frustrating that it has yet to flow both ways.

Crimson