I'm a little confused after phone coaching session

[reb9597]

Thanks 25. You're a lifeline and inspiration here. It's difficult enough to get through, and having extra insight is so helpful.

I didn't invite him when he asked where we were at the game because I thought I wasn't supposed to add pressure to him. Was trying to give distance. Is that not right? There was only a seat next to D15. I truly didn't think he'd take it. He's a big guy and it was pretty crowded. I wonder if his bad R with dds is a roadblock to having a R with me...

I've been trying to figure out the being 'neighborly' or friendly vs offering friendship. I don't initiate any texts (except 1 this wk), but am cheery with replies when or if he initiates. But I felt that offering to save him a seat was more extending friendship & therefore pushing him away?

D15 & his R is a mess, she's the one I gave the 'road map' for. He's taken no steps to fix things with her so she still feels justified in her anger. And I've been supporting her for many months (she's made a lot of significant changes but needs the extra attention). And supporting her in a way has also meant supporting her against her dad (which truly, ive been wrapped up in so much anger through this ordeal it's been easy to be a joint mad team) I've just recently changed that to the friendly stage. I hope there hasn't been too much damage already done. I told D15 we're being friendly now & to get on board as best she can. Like your d, she just needs an apology from H but may never get it. And to clarify, we haven't seen H much at all for months. Nor have we communicated much at all. So we haven't been mad in his presence every day. I don't know what he's been doing but he hasn't pursued his kids.

D15 was the one that discovered his A by looking at his phone & he turned on her & yelled at her. So she's still hurt and he doesn't do anything to help her heal.

I did ask db coach if I should invite H to a celebration after kid events and she said no. Too much pressure again? The frustrating thing is that we were always good parents together and he thinks I'm a good mom just not someone he wants to spend the rest of his life with. So only seeing him at kid events doesn't does little to dispel that image. I'll see him at D17 concert this afternoon. We haven't sat together at dd's concerts since he left. Should I invite him to sit with me & D15 again?

[reb9597]

I'm a hot mess tonight. Went to D17's concert and these events just hit me so hard! Worse than the basketball game because this is truly a root part of our family and my parenting, it's been in support of my girls' interests. We've done years and years of lessons and recitals and concerts & it feels like I'm walking around without a limb when we're both attending these events but separately.

He found us in our normal seats where I was already sitting with D15 and H's mom. He was friendly as usual, made a couple jokes, then went to sit on the opposite end of the row by his mom. Okay, well I guess this could be measured as progress because we've been to probably 10+ concerts since he's left and we've not even sat in the general vicinity once. He mostly stayed off his phone, looked like he was playing a game before and during intermission a little - but it was pretty clearly a game instead of rapid texting OW so that's probably progress too.

I see other families and grandparents at these events and it makes me cry and feel so sad! I don't want this future of a broken up family!

I need to make another appt with DB coach again for this week. But I'm feeling desperate about wanting to reach out to him. We haven't talked about our relationship since Oct and I feel that I've changed a lot, he probably has too, and I should put something out there - no pressure, but here's where I'm at. I want to play the right move and be pragmatic, but I don't want to let him file for D without knowing my heart is still open! I'll regret not saying anything. But I'm scared half to death.

D15 did pretty well tonight. I gave her a pep talk about keeping a good attitude and reminded her that her dad loves her. I feel like I'm back in the role of managing her relationship with her dad and I know he'll benefit from it, but I think it's probably the right thing to do.

Girls and I went to dinner with H's mom afterwards and I was a little down and it was hard to be in the right frame of mind. H asked where we were going to dinner & I told him - I can't tell if he's asking for an invitation or if he's just being nice... again! I probably would have asked if he wanted to come but it would have been too awkward with his mom too. But it was awkward without him so idk.

Struggling tonight. I hate it that I'm hyper analyzing every exchange and word said around him. And he's going to take D17 to dinner tomorrow night so I'll have to see him again. Maybe I'll just be gone pursuing my own GAL.

What's that woman like? What are her interests and hobbies?

^^ is something else that was hard for me tonight, because the concerts & my girl's music is truly my world. He's always been a welcome outsider but my hobbies and interests are so closely matched to what my dd's are pursuing that it's hard to figure out in my head what is dd's interests and what's mine... I'm confusing myself now... but the point is that H is from another world. He was always super supportive and encouraging but was only a visitor and I think the close bond my dd's and I share from the last 8 months and also from all of our shared interests all of their lives makes H feel even more like an outsider. I'm probably reading too much into this tonight...

[AnotherStander]

I didn't invite him when he asked where we were at the game because I thought I wasn't supposed to add pressure to him. Was trying to give distance. Is that not right?

Michele goes into this a bit in DR. Giving time and space doesn't mean you can't ever invite your spouse to anything. It does mean that you shouldn't pressure them for "dates", but it's fine to invite them along to family stuff. The key is that you are going WITH OR WITHOUT them. So it should be phrased something like this "Hey H, I'm taking the kids to the zoo this weekend, you're welcome to join us if you wish". There is no pressure attached to an invitation like this, because it's clear that you and the kids are going whether he goes or not. If he says he can't, then just respond back with something like "no problem" and then (this is key)- GO ANYWAY.

[reb9597]

I made an appt with DB coach today but it's not for 3 weeks. Any advice appreciated here - I've read some emails from last fall from H, the last correspondence we've had about our M. I'm seeing things in a different light since my discovery last week and I really feel I need to reach out to him. Not for his sake, not to win him back, but for me. He's taken on a great deal of guilt and blame for these last 8 months and it's truly not fair. I've been the example, I've been the honey to the bee, I've lived the change I want to see (to him) I've made a lot of personal discoveries and part of that is me stepping up to the plate and saying "hey, I accept my part. I know you tried at one time, and I'm sorry I didn't see it then. And I know I didn't try to the extent I should have. And I'm not a victim anymore and will not put any more guilt on you." Like a release for myself. I'm a BIG taking responsibility kind of woman, with my kids and life in general. So I feel this is holding me back from my personal growth if I DON'T do it! I have to release it and let it go. Even if that gives him permission to file for D. I don't know... I've had a pretty stressful week and I can't find my DR book, is there something I'm missing here?

[reb9597]

I think I've had some missteps this week. I was obsessed with relieving my guilt and sending H an email accepting my blame in the failure of my relationship. It was cathartic and cleansing and understanding and geared towards healing. I felt really good about it at the time - a lot of soul baring. I started out writing for him, but it ended up something I needed to do for me, acknowledging my anger in our relationship and how I understand that contributed to pushing him away. I asked him if he would consider going to see counselor with me again to try to work on our communication and resolve some wounds so our family could move forward in whatever form. Totally no pressure. A lot of praise for his dedication to (providing for) our family. Before last year, he truly was a wonderful dad. I tried to just remember the old qualities and praised those.

Then I pushed send. And I instantly regretted it! Felt like I was really pushing him for a decision, felt like I was going to push him to file for D. Total terror and panic attacks. WHY do I do this to myself?? I truly had a breakthrough in my soul and do not regret my words at all. But I am so worried it was the wrong strategic move to take.

He did reply with a text message within an hour of sending the email. H said "read your email. thanks. still processing it." I replied "thank you". Then he sent me a joke text, which he hasn't done for ages and ages. I answered & that was it.

So worry worry worry... then daughter had a concert tonight and I had sent an invite on Monday night as my coach said to do - short notice invites. I'm not really sure why short notice, to see if they'll go out of their way? Well, he said he was going.

Then the concert was in a different school than I thought, so I sent another text and he replies that he's late. On his way but about an hr away. The concert started in 20 min so I replied it's okay, I know he's working hard, it's a small concert & don't worry about it. He replied that he 'doesn't want to let D15 down. I'm really torn up about our relationship'. (FIRST HINT IN FOREVER that he has any emotions in there at all)

Then I was very surprised when he calls me right after sending that text. I told him (per DB coach, be understanding & supportive) that it's okay, D15 would understand. I ask if he's okay. And he starts crying on the phone! Says he wants to be a better dad, wants to be there for dds. Me, being supportive - girls know you love them, they love you, a lot of healing needs to take place but it can happen. He's really sad and says he's been working so much, 'someone needs to work & provide for girls to have every opportunity'. I said I understand, but his working so much hasn't really brought his or us happiness... I hinted at my offer to see counselor together again to try to heal our family, he was noncommital. I offered for him to call if he ever wants to talk about things. H said he made plans to see D17 on Friday and that he'd see me then. I replied that I have plans, may not see him. Which is actually true because I'm GALing & meeting a girlfriend for happy hour!

So at this point, he's showing emotion which is WAY out of his comfort zone. I almost didn't know how to respond, I have so little practice with his emotions! With our co-dependency history, it's really confusing to figure out where I'm taking charge of his relationship with his daughters again. But after all this time, it's pretty obvious he doesn't know which way to turn in healing with dds. And if we can be better communicators and heal some of our issues, it can only help daughters.

I don't know where this can take us but 2 significant things happened - I showed a very atypical amount of humility in my email (I have a very hard time admitting failure) and it was good for ME! I really felt like I've grown through admitting my faults. He responded to my emotional admissions by being emotional himself - and that's also atypical. He was crying and sad about R with dds, but maybe there was more there too. Maybe he is finally realizing things aren't so dandy and healing has happen.

[labug]

Sounds like it took a positive direction.

Don't push for anything right now but when you do talk with him ask lots of open-ended questions so he has to talk more. Is he an "I've got to think about things" guy? If so, don't bring anything up for awhile. Remember, nothing moves fast in this world.

Trying to manage the R with Ds would be a backslide, let him take the lead if he will.

Family counseling might be good but if he's not there, he's not there.

Good luck!

[AnotherStander]

Then I pushed send. And I instantly regretted it! Felt like I was really pushing him for a decision, felt like I was going to push him to file for D. Total terror and panic attacks. WHY do I do this to myself?? I truly had a breakthrough in my soul and do not regret my words at all. But I am so worried it was the wrong strategic move to take.

Don't worry about it, just don't have any expectations that he'll ever give you a meaningful response about it. I sent something similar to my W and she never even acknowledged getting it, so you're a leg up on me already, LOL! It may have helped you because now you know you've stated your case and he knows your position. So just keep that in mind, you do not ever have to send anything like that again because you've said it and he'll remember it.

And he starts crying on the phone! Says he wants to be a better dad, wants to be there for dds. Me, being supportive - girls know you love them, they love you, a lot of healing needs to take place but it can happen.

It may be a sign that he's STARTING to come out of the fog, but again, drop any expectations you might have that it means a turnaround is imminent. Almost the exact same thing happened with me, I was talking to W on the phone about the kids and she suddenly broke down crying, saying she was confused and didn't know what to do. I wrongly assumed it meant she was ready to start talking about the M again and maybe working on it. She wasn't. That was 5 or 6 months after BD. Now I'm what, 9 months post BD and there's been no progress since then.

So at this point, he's showing emotion which is WAY out of his comfort zone. I almost didn't know how to respond, I have so little practice with his emotions!

Ask him how he feels. Validate his emotions. Do not pressure for MC or R talks. Do not have any expectations that it means he's ready to talk about the M.

Maybe he is finally realizing things aren't so dandy and healing has happen.

Perhaps, but there's nothing you can do to speed him along to that conclusion. So just maintain your distance. He STILL needs time and space.

[25yearsmlc]

I think I've had some missteps this week. I was obsessed with relieving my guilt and sending H an email accepting my blame in the failure of my relationship. It was cathartic and cleansing and understanding and geared towards healing. I felt really good about it at the time - a lot of soul baring. I started out writing for him, but it ended up something I needed to do for me, acknowledging my anger in our relationship and how I understand that contributed to pushing him away. I asked him if he would consider going to see counselor with me again to try to work on our communication and resolve some wounds so our family could move forward in whatever form. Totally no pressure.


It WAS and IS pressure. Even if unintended. I'd urge you Not to repeat this.
You said what you wanted & needed to say.

He heard you. He replied.

NOTHING MORE IS NEEDED NOW. IF, IF HE brings up your letter you say "I just wanted to get it off my chest. Hope you don't mind." And leave it at that. IF he presses onward, spend your time LISTENING and gathering more information. Validate and then listen some more. IF he asks you for any type of decision, say you need time to process it.

Nothing wears on a relationship like constantly taking its' temperature. Not having discussed the R since October was probably great.

Please do NOT tell him or ask him IF he noticed your changes, b.c it undermines those very changes. Please do NOT point them out or highlight them.

If your letter was as out of character and different for YOU, then trust that he knows it. If he doesn't see it that way, nothing you SAY will convince him of it.

A lot of praise for his dedication to (providing for) our family. Before last year, he truly was a wonderful dad. I tried to just remember the old qualities and praised those.

Good. That's ^^ "applauding loudly for the 1% of positives" he does and I hope you can do that for his present day positives.

Then I pushed send. And I instantly regretted it! Felt like I was really pushing him for a decision, felt like I was going to push him to file for D. Total terror and panic attacks. WHY do I do this to myself?? I truly had a breakthrough in my soul and do not regret my words at all. But I am so worried it was the wrong strategic move to take.

He did reply with a text message within an hour of sending the email. H said "read your email. thanks. still processing it." I replied "thank you". Then he sent me a joke text, which he hasn't done for ages and ages. I answered & that was it.

So worry worry worry...


how is that^^^ going for you? Does it enhance your life or your behavior? My guess is, NO.

I used to worry about things out of my control or that could only happen in the future, about an hour over each day. That adds up to YEARS of useless negativity.

It lessens our everyday joy, it lessens our capacity for loving others, and it makes us miserable and changes NOTHING in the future or that we have no control over...gee, wonder if I'll ever get breast cancer??

Stop that thought pattern. Life is too short. Plus, it's a lousy thing to put out into the universe. ALSO it makes you want control...esp over things you do NOT have control over anyhow...and that leads to other behaviors and outcomes you do NOT want...

then daughter had a concert tonight and I had sent an invite on Monday night as my coach said to do - short notice invites. I'm not really sure why short notice, to see if they'll go out of their way? Well, he said he was going.

OR to lower your expectations and show that you must not have high outlandish expectations since it's last minute. If you gave him a MONTH's notice, he pretty much has to go - or feel like a loser. Just mho.

Then the concert was in a different school than I thought, so I sent another text and he replies that he's late. On his way but about an hr away. The concert started in 20 min so I replied it's okay, I know he's working hard, it's a small concert & don't worry about it. He replied that he 'doesn't want to let D15 down. I'm really torn up about our relationship'. (FIRST HINT IN FOREVER that he has any emotions in there at all)

really?

What about October's comment to you when you gave him the "roadmap"? I'm not trying to hit you with 2 x 4's but you have been sort of blind to a lot of his efforts b/c they were not wrapped the way you wanted them or b/c he left.



Then I was very surprised when he calls me right after sending that text. I told him (per DB coach, be understanding & supportive) that it's okay, D15 would understand. I ask if he's okay. And he starts crying on the phone! Says he wants to be a better dad, wants to be there for dds. Me, being supportive - girls know you love them, they love you, a lot of healing needs to take place but it can happen.

that^^ is a request for HIM to work on things. You already did that in the letter. He did NOT answer that part but now you've repeated it.

Just reassure him of their love, to keep the road home, paved and smooth. Stop reminding him of the "healing" that needs to happen when he knows it, it's obvious. He is in pain, as is she.


He's really sad and says he's been working so much, 'someone needs to work & provide for girls to have every opportunity'. I said I understand, but his working so much hasn't really brought his or us happiness...


any chance you can get a job to ease his stress? When he says "someone has to", does he mean, evidently just HIM, b/c you won't?

What about you offering to at least get a part time job to help out? OR if you are working already, can you maybe ask for a raise or look for better pay? At least show him you are on his side and on the same team. Telling him you "understand BUT" it has not brought happiness means you do NOT agree with him so he's "wrong". Where is the teamwork in that ??


I hinted at my offer to see counselor together again to try to heal our family, he was noncommital. I offered for him to call if he ever wants to talk about things.

Please...no more of this^^. You said your words in the letter, you said them again (twice in the talk?) and you KNOW He heard them.

No need to keep instructing him or reminding him of the WORK HE must do, etc. NO need to pretend no pressure is on him.

Also, if it's you he wants to talk to about problems, he'll call you. No need to offer to listen.

So he was "noncommital" about counselling. So drop it. Do not bring it up again.

LIGHTEN UP now. Be fun and relaxed and EASY TO BE AROUND which was what was working.

No more pressure and trust me, R talk = pressure.


H said he made plans to see D17 on Friday and that he'd see me then. I replied that I have plans, may not see him. Which is actually true because I'm GALing & meeting a girlfriend for happy hour!

GOOD! Be sure to be gone then.

So at this point, he's showing emotion which is WAY out of his comfort zone. I almost didn't know how to respond, I have so little practice with his emotions! With our co-dependency history, it's really confusing to figure out where I'm taking charge of his relationship with his daughters again.

I think you're starting to take charge again. JMHO. Back off for real now. OR it's just more of the same.

But after all this time, it's pretty obvious he doesn't know which way to turn in healing with dds. And if we can be better communicators and heal some of our issues, it can only help daughters.

look at the rationalizations you are using here^^^....NO, it can't "only help your d's".....

NOT if it's you taking charge again. LET HIM LEAD HIMSELF TO THE WATER.

I don't know where this can take us but 2 significant things happened - I showed a very atypical amount of humility in my email (I have a very hard time admitting failure) and it was good for ME! I really felt like I've grown through admitting my faults. He responded to my emotional admissions by being emotional himself - and that's also atypical. He was crying and sad about R with dds, but maybe there was more there too. Maybe he is finally realizing things aren't so dandy and healing has happen.

OR
maybe he just feels sorry for himself b/c he works so hard "someone has to" and yet his r's with his d's stink and so, he is a victim & it's so unfair to HIM.

If I were you I would not want to be in the target zone of who to blame if that is how he's feeling. You seriously need to back off.

IF progress has been made then let it sink in. Don't un-do it.

make sense?

[reb9597]

labug, AS, 25, thank you for the reminders. The changes are still recent and I don't always see it but yeah, I was starting to want to take control again. Backing off now. And I won't be here Friday.

I work full time. I've always had a job, used to be part time when the kids were younger but full time for the past 4-5 years. It's not a money thing for him. Well, on one hand it probably is, because I think he compares himself to his one good friend who advanced in the department very quickly at a young age & is very successful and well respected. It's a close knit 'family' environment that he really feeds off the attention from feeling valued by his peers. I was always very jealous that he loved his work so much. It was one of my realizations and sorrys in the email...

The money comment was always his deal - our kids are involved in expensive activities and now D17 is going to college next year. He always felt pressure to work and I always begged him to stay home & he wouldn't & I'd sulk or be angry. I felt he was choosing work over his family. Weird thing is that with his perceived money pressure, he's making it worse by dividing up households & separating our lives. Now he really will have money stress. Before, the more money he made, the more vacations we took. It was/is a really bad cycle that I wish I could get him to cut back on. But before in our R when he insisted on doing so much, I tried to be the micro organizer and help with the scheduling of all his extra shifts. I thought I was helping, but I can see where I became the drill sargeant. I guess different from that would be to just let the chips fall where they may, which I think I have. He hasn't given me a schedule of his work since Sept and I don't ask for it at all. I did mention on the phone last night, when he was saying he only had 5 days off for the entire month, that if he wanted to schedule some days with the girls in advance that may help him make time for them. I think I probably should have just let him figure that one out because that sounded like th old me.

How do I join show teamwork for him when he works himself into the ground and has nothing left for the "important" ppl in his life like his daughters?

25, thanks for the reminder about worrying. And you're absolutely right, I was so worried about seeing him at concert last night that I didn't enjoy my time at home with girls. I feel more centered today.

He was callous the last time we talked about R in Oct. My road map was offered in anger & he looked at me with dead eyes, no emotion. I know his R with girls bothered him back then, but I don't think he believed their anger would drag on this long. Their R was getting worse not better. I've noticed a difference in D15 attitude since I've been on the promoting friendship w/ their dad track and I feel bad for that. I realize I may have been holding them back and I didn't think I was. That makes me a little nervous what you say, 25, about not being in the line of fire - because I did that in my letter... One of my many sorrys was that I was afraid that my grief has had a negative effect on the girls healing with him. Will see if there are any repocussions I guess.

2x4 always welcome, thank you all. The insight prompts growth.

[GALbaby]

Reb, many of us women feel our H's prioritise their jobs over their families. Our H's dont see it that way, they think they are sacrificing everything else in their lives for their families by being successful and good providers. It may be a bit misguided but well intentioned.

My H had a difficult stressful job which involved shiftwork for 27 years, however he did love his job. At 54 the stress was taking its toll and he was turning into a monster, hence BD. I noticed the vacant unemotional look in his eyes and his complete loss of joy for living. I too spent a lot of time criticising him and the choices he made. He left his job suddenly 4 months ago. Due to the stress in home and worklife, he made an error of judgement. He basically couldn't live with the consequences of that mistake, so resigned his job. We haven't been happier, although the financial stress is certainly challening. We are trying to put things in place, and we are working well together at it.

I'm not suggsting your H leave his job, however the thing is, my H had to work that through himself. He HAD TO HIT ROCK BOTTOM! His relationship with his children suffered also, but it is his responsibility. I no longer get involved in it. I no longer take the sides of my children, or my H. They need to work through this themselves. If they want a R with their father bad enough, they can find the tools to improve it, and likewise him. Admittedly mine were older 24, 19 and 18 at the time. Its also become apparent to me that I let them stand between my H and I too many times and basically pitted one off against the other. I think our kids can be manipulative and so was I. I was always trying to play the guilt card. Our kids can't fully understand the damage they do, so its up to us to back off. We can't always protect them. Life has its ups and downs and the sooner they learn to fend for themselves and work through their issues the better they will be as a result. I do firmly believe we are too much involved in our children's issues. Confirmed by DB coach also. I was instructed to DB my kids also.

You can be there to validate and talk things through, but please don't insist things have to be done a certain way in their R. Its just another form of control. One of my 180's - to let them work through their R problems themselves, as I also need to.

Take care, you are doing great. Lots of positives and lots of learning taking place.