I'm a little confused after phone coaching session

[GALbaby]

Dear Reb, we can all relate to what you've said. It can take a crisis for the light bulb to go off. Thankfully, we've get a light bulb moment learning from DB too, that we can improve ourselves and stop our expectation that its up to others to make us happy. We can hopefully mend the damage, before spirally downwards in misery and blame. Don't feel guilty, its an opportunity to grow. I hope you get a chance to tell your H all those wonderful positive things you can now see. We feel hurt and rejected, that's a normal response. Now you recognise what you couldn't before.

I dug out my notes. Briefly, Jody mentioned Stg 1 - Unilateral, letting dust settle, not stirring things up - The time out between you too may have helped with that.

Then in any interactions with him, the talk should be about him, try eye contact, attentiveness, being really interested in what he has to say, friendly, polite, neighborly, non-confrontational, don't worry about what the future holds, this could take time - You've made a small step and got a positive response.

Stg 2 - Moving to friendship stage, connection becomes more reciprocal, non-sexual flirting, fun.

Stg 3 - Romance.

I found that her advice was solid and I stuck with the plan. She was right on many levels. Keep going with your coach because its really tailored to individual situations. We get good general advice on the board. (I know, i know i'm a walking advertisement). Trust.

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=reb9597]Ah ha moment. I just realized or maybe finally accepted that my H did try. I can't judge the quality of his efforts, but he did and I've been denying it all this time. That's been my argument, why can't he try?

SO Glad you see this^^ now. Have you read the Five Love Languages? This^^ sometimes sounds as if you are saying 'I give love in MY Love Language...it's up to HIM to receive it...but he also has to give me love the way I want it, or I won't count it as him trying."

NOW hopefully, you'll BOTH see that you turned away from love given to you b/c it wasn't wrapped the way you wanted it...such a waste. Very tragic.

Learn from this^^^....for real. And if you have a chance, check out the website for a workshop called "Essential Experience" b/c it's life changing. I went, and then later on my h saw such dramatic changes in me, that HE went too. And it brought us a lot closer.

BTW, I had had a lot of similar issues to yours. H is a physician. He worked so much and I resented it. I felt he was choosing work/glory accolades/extra cases over time with us. Sometimes that was true. But other times he had to work extra. Period.

Point is, I'd receive him home with my arms crossed, literally and figuratively...b/c I'd be mad that he was "late, AGAIN"....and that did NOT help us.

I think I'm smart. But for the life of me it never dawned on me to welcome him home with open arms and a warm heart...to give him a home he'd MISS when at work!! And to show our children a loving reception.

Why didn't I ever ask myself if my approach was helping/hurting or doing a darn thing? Why didn't I change my approach years ago??

Fact is, h got glory and accolades at work that I was not giving him at home b/c I thought I'd be "rewarding" his neglect if I showed love to him....I was a prideful fool.

I thought I was right, and being right was more important than being happy...


that's one thing I've changed for sure. Being happy is the goal; not being "right."


But writing all that history really made me remember a couple things. He was the one that bought the 5 Love Languages book last winter. And he read it more than I did. I read it maybe half heartedly and I don't even think I finished it. I don't know if he did, but it was his initial effort. And I didn't see it. At all. I didn't even see that as him communicating his unhappiness at the time. But it's obvious now.

I hear you...I really do.

And during the fall of 2011, D15 had some problems and he was the one that ordered books on parenting a teen and strategies for parents. And I wouldn't read them.

Hmmm. Wonder if he thought you were NOT trying? Food for thought

I think I thought that he was taking care of it while I was doing the 'real work' of having to raise these girls. And I was scared out of my brain. I faced that situation and hid emotionally, just like he is now. I faced the situation and tried to bully my way through it instead of learning from it. And when we finally made it through D15 sitch and then he ordered the Love Lang book in the winter, I just couldn't handle another battle. I was so angry. And I didn't see any of it until now.

better late than never. Seriously. It is!


I can see where, if he did even a minimum effort last winter and thought nothing was going to ever change in our R, it made it that much easier for him to walk away. It's not fair that we didn't get a chance to grow together. And I'm eternally sorry that it took me so long. I can only do the best I can and, I'm determined to grow and do nothing but my best from now on.

Hold onto this^^^ and for awhile, make it your mantra. Teach yourself to forgive yourself b/c at the time, with the limited tools you had and your own human flaws, you did your best, however feeble it now seems...

AND you need forgiving. (We all do)

When you learn to do this for yourself, hopefully you can forgive him too...which is a gift you'll be giving YOU. (He does not even need to know if you are not ready to tell him)

As you already know, your anger consumes & hurts YOU the most, not him.
In fact it helps him feel right about leaving.

my kids are the reasons I finally gave up on being so mad. I just wasn't able to be present for them. I was too pre-occupied with my righteous anger.

When I read your first post tonight with how badly he left you, (as opposed to the good ways someone can leave a marriage)and the litany of grievances you have, and perhaps HE has too (usually there are scorecards on all sides and you both need to lose those. Drop the weapons...so to speak)

I just thought you were going to negatively spiral...which I did a lot of. I can't read my journals from 2005 or I'll get mad all over again. Either mad at h OR mad at myself for staying in my anger for so long...


And I remembered that he even made a comment last fall around the time of our meager MC attempt, that he thought it was 'interesting' or something to that effect that I was reading so many relationship books now, when I wouldn't look at the ones he ordered when d15 was in her sitch. I don't remember my reply but I tried to convey that I've been trying to make positive changes now. But I think he was probably remembering his effort of ordering the Love Lang book and applying my lack of interest back then to that too. I'm so heartbroken.

No need to mind read now. Just live and learn and then live better. I see hope in your sitch.

But a lot of this has to come from YOU and your changes. The real journey in life is an inward one, you know?

Help me learn from this discovery. Can I tell him any of this? I'm crushed by guilt tonight.

[/quote

Tell him nothing of this now. He has heard words from you before. SHOW him something new...nothing drastic unless you know of a gesture that would mean a lot to him. But generally, it's not the dramatic gesture that generates trust, just momentary notice.

Consistent changes + sufficient TIME = change they can believe in.

But BE different. Become a woman only a fool would leave.

Applaud loudly for the 1% of positives he does. (Yes Mother Teresa hard at times, but it works)

Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth...don't make it harder for him to come home than it already would be.

Lose the anger. Process it and get rid of it and do NOT show it to him...

Model for your d's what a woman of strength and dignity does in the face of such a blow to her heart and such a setback.

Do NOT engage in "assignments of blame"...they help no one.

Own your part and owning it, means working on it.

You'll get better but you will fall down. So you'll need to get up again.

And you'll see some "efforts" on his end.

When he falls down, don't judge. Just hope he gets back up again too, and if you can, help him do so.


PLEASE READ KEEPGOING'S THREAD...she's an inspiration.

[Tallula]

Oh how I understand regret! If only I would have...why can't he let some things go...how can he give up!?!

I keep reminding myself that I can't go back and change anything. I could only see what I could see & he could only see what he could. Here we are. Focusing on regret & my anger at what my H has done will just keep me stuck. I feel it and try to move forward. I keep telling myself I'm not a victim and I am strong.

25 had some amazing things to share, as usual. Keep going's threads have really helped me. 25's threads & comments have been so helpful!!

Early in my sitch I had to admit, that while I view "working on the M differently, my H is/was doing it in his own way. All I can do is focus on me & my changes.

You are doing great!!

[25yearsmlc]

25 - than you for taking the time to make that post, not just beneficial to Rebecca but to a lot of us!

LMF,

You're very welcome! I too, got lots of help from other's stories or posts, even when they were different. True, We're all in unique situations. (So I worry when people apply "the 37/40 rules" to all situations equally,).

Most posters will ALWAYS say, for instance, "do NOT pursue" &

they say it to every single LBSer. TO ME, The only safe & sure thing to tell EACH/EVERY LBSer -

is not to beg/whine/plead or try to argue your way back to each other. None of those behaviors are attractive OR effective. God knows I tried them all...

As for true pursuit, it usually IS a good idea to Avoid it & detach so your spouse can have some space.

BUT you have to FIRST know what YOUR issues are

AND OR what your spouse SAID they were)

and Do NOT Do more of the same.

Sooooo, If you were a neglectful or distant spouse, (or if your WAS says you were),

or if they described you as "closed off, too uncommunicative, too unaffectionate, withholding, cold, and "gone too much", or that you "did not express love or give them attention"...even if you disagree

(& don't bother disagreeing with how they FEEL about your treatment of them, b/c their perception is their reality for now)

But if those things (cold, witdrawing, neglect,ETC) were said OR are valid, then clearly "stopping all pursuit" seems like a bad idea.

B/C withdrawing would be more of the same. Make sense?


DB says we we try an approach for a sufficient amount of time, and then we monitor for results.

People disagree A LOT on what a "sufficient amount of time" is.

I've seen people give several months of a new behavior before the WAS believes in the change, so kudos to them.

I"ve seen LBSers give up, OR switch approaches in a matter of, I kid you NOT, 2 days.

How on earth could a WAS believe in anything the LBSer says if theyre changing by the minute?

Having said all this, about our unique situations...the good news is, however, that there IS a sense of universal experience in much of this.

There are common threads and similar pieces to many of our stories.

Learning from those, is one more great reason for coming here.

Good luck all, may today Bless you and begin a peaceful and or joyful weekend for you and your loved ones.

[reb9597]

Thank you again all. 25, your insight is spot on. I'm glad I'm giving this another shot now a little further down the journey. I wish it hadn't take me so long to get here, but I know the healing is real because it was on my own time. And the difference between thinking he owed me a R attempt vs not being able to control his actions and just hoping he'll be attracted the new me has helped a lot.

can someone tell me how to search for KEEPGOING'S thread? I did the search w/ username & couldn't find anyone.

I'm seeing H tonight I think at basketball game. I'm going regardless for d17 and she said he was going too. I think I've been maybe pursuing friendship instead of just being friendly, so I'm backing off on that. No pressure. This is a new arena from being so distant for 8 months. But I feel it will help with my daughter's relationship w/ their dad, and that will be a good thing regardless.

Thanks again for the support. When would be a good time to disclose my realization about his/my efforts in our relationship? I know the action could push him away further. But I sent a nasty version of this email really tearing him apart for his 'version of history' last October. And my thinking has changed so drastically, I feel this needs to be corrected. Too soon?

He sent me a text last night that I'll be receiving money for d17 upcoming trip. I replied 'thank you. I really appreciate you always taking care of girls!' Tried to offer praise in a way, and I really am appreciative. He replied 'I wouldn't have it any other way'. Funny how the integrity is so deep in many fundamental areas of this man, except when it comes to being faithful. letting it go... letting it go...

[sweetbabyred]

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=29464

Here is the link to keepgoing's posts. Not sure which is the right thread, but hopefully it'll get you started.

[reb9597]

NOW hopefully, you'll BOTH see that you turned away from love given to you b/c it wasn't wrapped the way you wanted it...such a waste. Very tragic.

I know, mind reading, but he's only ever said "too much water under the bridge". Don't know how to help him see it's worth a real chance. Especially if we're both trying.

Fact is, h got glory and accolades at work that I was not giving him at home b/c I thought I'd be "rewarding" his neglect if I showed love to him....I was a prideful fool.

That's exactly it. It was my "permitting" mentality. And it never occurred to me that if I were happy he was home, when he was home, maybe he'd want to BE home more often. Nope. Wasn't in my brain.

And during the fall of 2011, D15 had some problems and he was the one that ordered books on parenting a teen and strategies for parents. And I wouldn't read them.

Hmmm. Wonder if he thought you were NOT trying? Food for thought

I'm sure you're right, again. He brought those books to my attention a couple times. I didn't think it was the answer to the problem, I remember saying we need action, not a manual. I could have praised his way of doing things and probably would have gleaned some useful help. I could have made it a team effort. I just pushed it all away and ran into the sitch with guns blazing and my bull headed thinking (re: d15) stayed like that for months. AND she came around so I thought I was right on top of everything else. Again, I wish I could share this with the one person who needs to hear it most.

Tell him nothing of this now. He has heard words from you before. SHOW him something new...nothing drastic unless you know of a gesture that would mean a lot to him. But generally, it's not the dramatic gesture that generates trust, just momentary notice.

Okay, but how can I show him the new me when our total interaction is restricted to seeing him at kid concerts or events? There's just not a lot of chances. And, truly, to him - not privately in my house, my kids know the real truth - but I've been modeling pma and a changed attitude for months. And months. Really. And now that I have a new direction, the remorse and friendship and effort of forgiveness will hopefully come through too. And I'm stuck until something cracks either way. Limbo stinks!

Something has changed in my brain though. Because instead of being super frustrated with limbo, I'm just contemplating the new life I'm creating. With or without H. Hopefully he'll want to be a part of our new life. I think I feel contentment for the first time in forever. Wow - another ah ha moment. I'm posting all of this so I can go back & read it again when I'm feeling desperate. I guess that's journaling.

[reb9597]

Saw H at daughter's basketball game tonight. Ways of improvement, seeing he's open to friendly status: he texted me and asked if I was there & where d15 & I were sitting. I told him but didn't invite him to join. Texted excitement about the game. He came to find seat after first quarter and gave d15 a snack and I motion invited him to empty seat beside her. We chatted a little over d15 but she was visibly upset about him being there and I tried to be comforting to her. He left after the next quarter. So the good thing is that he didn't pull his phone out that I saw while he was sitting with us. In the past he's used his phone to distract/ignore us. He texted me after he left for updates on the game and I replied with excitement about our team winning. I was upbeat and having fun the entire time regardless of his reaction. D17 was really upset afterward that he left so early and left without saying goodbye. But I reminded her that he was there and 'present'/didn't hide behind his phone and we can't control his actions so feel the disappointment but then let it go and don't hold on to anger.

I had a great time knowing I did my best and modeled my best for my girls.

A friend asked me today why I'm holding on to this relationship so tightly when I 'can't be happy' with him. I told her that she's right, the old me couldn't be happy with anything. The new me wants to try. Maybe H will want to try someday too. I think if I can keep up the happy/friendly approach I'll at least give him something to think about.

[findingself]

I think if I can keep up the happy/friendly approach I'll at least give him something to think about.

We can't ask for anything more than that a times...hoping my H too will see this and make H think!!!

Good way to put it!!

[25yearsmlc]

You asked how you could show him the new you if the only interactions are at kids events. That's enough. You're there for THEM, in theory so no pressure need attach. I have 2 family members (cousin and aunt) who divorced & remarried their x's. It was due to contact at kid's events, but it took a few years.
So I know for a fact it happens...

Saw H at daughter's basketball game tonight. Ways of improvement, seeing he's open to friendly status: he texted me and asked if I was there & where d15 & I were sitting. I told him but didn't invite him to join.

Just curious, why not invite him to sit with you? He asked where you were sitting for a reason. You think it was the area he wanted to avoid?? (Me neigther)


Texted excitement about the game. He came to find seat after first quarter and gave d15 a snack and I motion invited him to empty seat beside her.


Hey these^^^ are all positives, okay?

But to nit pick A LITTLE, why seat him next to HER? Was there no seat next to YOU? Or did you really think that was too much? Remember you're there at her game to support HER as her parents. I see divorced parents who've remarried others, sitting next to each other...


We chatted a little over d15 but she was visibly upset about him being there and I tried to be comforting to her.

She's not the one playing, right? (Let's hope not). Why is she upset? If he had not come, she'd have been upset too, so how can he win with her?

I'm NOT saying SHE has to make nice and that SHE MUST lose the anger...those rules cannot be applied to the kids. But she also can't set him up for failure. And besides, the d playing might have wanted him there...what about that? There was a GAME going on that meant something to your d playing, right?

So I think the goal is to put aside ALL bad feelings for the child centered events.

And from there, see what you can build.

It wasn't their/her anger that hurt the marriage anyhow. (I'm not blaming you for anger there, just saying the marriage problems were NOT involving the kids- but they pay a price).

So, we can't expect them to abide by the rules we try to follow -and fail at too-but let them have their pain...our job THERE, is to get them some tools for coping with their pain and being open to hearing them vent.

We also cannot contribute more to their pain by further alienating them from their dad. HE does love them. We cannot make snide snarky comments even if THEY are thinking them...seriously.

I tell my kids, "Your dad would kill/die for you" and I mean that. Of course, he might also live in the wilds of Alaska b/c he "needs to", but that's not to say he does not love them. And I do praise him for genuinely good traits he has, which are many. He's eccentric but he's brilliant. I just try to get them to see his eccentricities as dimensions of his intelligence, not neurotic weirdnesses...sometimes there's a fine line.

I have a d15 and she's having a hard time w/her dad NOWadays. (But let me repeat for emphasis= SHE IS 15 and SOME of this, is b/c of her age/attitude. NO parent could emerge untouched by her scathing biting wit...I was a real jerk from age 13 to 15. I admit it.)

But, our d15, like yours, feels he abandoned us/her, although for us it was a few years back. But today his work takes him out of town a few days a week and it's NOT clear to her why he chose that job.

He is missing out on her highschool time NOW b/c of his deployment and now this out of town job. So I'm not going to tell you it all works out smoothly.

In fact on my thread (or a thread w/my name on it) I talk about that b/c this Monday the kids and I are going to see a T to get some boundaries and a framework for a good open discussion with h.

But I want the T there so we all know what a "pile on" is, and how NOT to elicit a defensive response from h, which is easy to do.

My NEW regret is that I did not involve the kids enough in our reconciliation so fwiw, IF and when you do reconcile, include the kids in on what moves you.

For instance my h said a lot of persuasive loving things when he began to turn himself around. HE said he wanted the chance to become the h I deserve, reconnect to what we once had, and then we went to Retrovaille and we got A LOT out of it. H made some serious breakthroughs there.

But the kids were not privvy to that. It felt "private" to me, and that's a mistake I didn't realize til recently. I should have shared more with them about WHY I was softening on the reconciliation...it's not as if they had not been hurt. And in truth, my h owes THEM an apology. But hey, it's 2013 now, and this mostly happened 5/6 years ago...your h might not be ready to apologize OR he might be more ready to now...


He left after the next quarter. So the good thing is that he didn't pull his phone out that I saw while he was sitting with us. In the past he's used his phone to distract/ignore us. He texted me after he left for updates on the game and I replied with excitement about our team winning. I was upbeat and having fun the entire time regardless of his reaction. D17 was really upset afterward that he left so early and left without saying goodbye.

SEE? Your d15 was mad BECAUSE he came at all. H surely felt that...so The d's will have to agree that when he attends an event for ONE OF THEM, the other will have to "woman" up like a sister should, and let your h feel comfortable watching a young woman he has helped raise, play a game he probably loves watching.

And YOU can know inside that the more this happens, the more he'll miss it happening more. It's NOT "letting him off the hook"" by allowing his presence. It's just not punishing him and it's also increasing the chance he'll feel relaxed enough sometime to join in a celebration or consolation dinner after...

No r talk...just all about the girls...and then after some fun stuff has happened YOU have to leave (girls can stay with him if they want, don't reduce THEIR time if you can help it.) But YOU have to go & end the evening first b/c a of the interesting things you are going to do, the fascinating people you are meeting and the FUN places you're going to see...

It's the GAL and mystery you are creating to SHOW change in you.


But I reminded her that he was there and 'present'/didn't hide behind his phone and we can't control his actions so feel the disappointment but then let it go and don't hold on to anger.

I had a great time knowing I did my best and modeled my best for my girls.

WELL DONE!!

A friend asked me today why I'm holding on to this relationship so tightly when I 'can't be happy' with him. I told her that she's right, the old me couldn't be happy with anything. The new me wants to try. Maybe H will want to try someday too. I think if I can keep up the happy/friendly approach I'll at least give him something to think about.

indeed you will. Be a woman only a fool would leave.

What's that woman like? What are her interests and hobbies? Does she take care of herself? Is she fundamentally happy?

Does she try to believe the best in people, b/c in her heart she prefers giving them something to live UP TO and not to tear them down??

Not saying "have expecations" but yes, assume the best until the worst hits you in the face. You can get back up again...