From the beginning...

[movingon-1968]

Truth is, that title (or talent) was a hindrance in the MR b/c it hinted at being an excuse to go against what was advised......like stepping back, don't bring up R talk, don't try to fix your W, etc.

This is good advice. I was able to figure this out on my own, but, I do wish I'd have found this site a year ago, if only to tell me about the books.

The only other site I found, while they do have an MLC and Reconciliation section, and discuss EA & PA's, seemed to be very much pro-divorce and that's not what I wanted. Though, I did find out about Mort Fertel thru them, so it's not all bad...

[25yearsmlc]

Sandi - you're absolutely right. I can think of MANY cases where my W just wanted someone to listen to.

My problem is I've always been a fixer. When I was a kid, I'd take apart my toys and put them back together again; fixed everybody's bikes in the neighborhood; fixed lawn mowers; fixed and restored cars; designed automated assembly equipment for Ford and GM; now I maintain a large computer network - I'm a fixer. The idea of listening was totally foreign to me, until I started reading Michelle's books...

I'm a work in progress... lol.

I want to add a bit to this^^^....yes my h is a "fixer," but one thing that used to bother me was also how I heard his "fixing".

I think this is what SOME WOMEN HEAR their h's saying:

"W, you can Shut up about that now. I told you how to fix it so there's nothing for you to keep whining about."

IT's not what my h meant, USUALLY, but I think there is a kernel of truth in there for a lot of men, and we women do pick up on it...

Soon enough they'll turn to others for their need to communicate or vent or connect with.

[movingon-1968]

I guess I should've said 'The idea of just listening without offering possible solutions' was totally foreign. The idea of someone just needing to vent without comment, didn't computer, at the time. Now I've gotten pretty good at it.

"W, you can Shut up about that now. I told you how to fix it so there's nothing for you to keep whining about."

It's frightening to even think I may have come off or been interpreted that way.

After reading 25's post, one thing that keeps popping into my mind is a discussion we had in August 2011 with one of her best friends. We were discussing her restaurant, food cost, sales, etc... She asked me if I thought she should close it down because it wasn't making enough money. Well, it WAS making money, we just needed to adjust some pricing and remove no and slow sellers from the menu, and we discussed this as well.

But I did tell her that ultimately, it was her restaurant; only she really knew what the sales numbers were, customer flow, costs, etc... and that only she could make a really educated decision on whether to close it or change what needed to be changed - and that regardless of her decision, I would support her 100%. To help her after she terminated her morning help, from July 2011 until the time it closed in February 2012 (right before the opening of her 'partnership' restaurant), I was going in and opening the restaurant for her, from 5:30am until about 7:30am - my start time at my job was 8am.

Somehow, that conversation got turned into me not giving a damn about the restaurant or the equipment, and she could do with it what she wanted. That's a conversation I have NO memory of - and her friend doesn't remember it that way either, and has told her so. There's currently some coldness between them right now, and I suspect that may be why.

W does bring this up every now and then, and I tell her I'm sorry she took my comment that way; but that is no where near what I meant - she claims I used those exact words.. Question is: how many times should a person have to apologize for something they didn't say?

[25yearsmlc]

W does bring this up every now and then, and I tell her I'm sorry she took my comment that way; but that is no where near what I meant - she claims I used those exact words.. Question is: how many times should a person have to apologize for something they didn't say?


If you are making eye contact and being heard, and you are utterly sincere, not more than twice. The next time it gets brought up, you can say

"W, I don't recall it that way at all, but I'm sorry you are still upset by it. If I had it to do over again, I'd make sure my meaning was clearer."

AND OR, "W, I cannot keep apologizing for a miscommunication, b/c I already have twice/several times. I really want to move on, going 'from this day forward' now".


At some point you might want to refer her to the friend you were speaking with if you are sure she'll back up your version.

OTherwise it goes back to HOW you said what you said. Learn from that and perhaps someday, explain what you learned.

Remember this---when a person speaks in a certain tone, or raises their voice, or gives off a negative form of communication then the CONTENT gets lost. This is especially true when the man is a lot bigger/stronger than the woman and is inherently more intimidating.

When my dad yelled at me, I didn't hear WHAT he said, I heard him yelling in anger.

So to ME, "dad's angry again" was THE message, NOT "clean your dirty room".


I imagine you have heard that "90% of communication is non verbal".

People dismiss it or give it lip service, b/c they cannot grasp its' meaning in real life.

Here is an example from an acting class I attended long ago.

So the script says:

Man to Woman: " I love you".

Okay. Seems like he's telling her he loves her, right? So he must love her. Right? That's what he said!

But WHAT IF we imagine those exact same words said the following ways?

-he is looking at his watch WHILE he says it?

Or he is rolling his eyes..or he is sighing...

-or looking at the floor...or closing his eyes? Grimacing? Wincing?

Or what if he's out of breath and hurried, makes major eye contact and says it with a wide grin?

He is saying the exact same words, but sending very different messages.

Make sense?

[hotwheelsaust]

I still struggle with some old conversations about how I didn't listen to the W or our friends about what was the preferred option or what they wanted to do. I have been made out to simply ignore everyone at all times and just simply do what I want. While I accept that I certainly did this many times with the W, it starts to worry you when you think you treated your friends and other family members this way, especially when you don't see it or remember it that way.

[25yearsmlc]

I still struggle with some old conversations about how I didn't listen to the W or our friends about what was the preferred option or what they wanted to do. I have been made out to simply ignore everyone at all times and just simply do what I want. While I accept that I certainly did this many times with the W, it starts to worry you when you think you treated your friends and other family members this way, especially when you don't see it or remember it that way.

so, um, maybe there is some truth to their claims? Let's say it is true...does that make you a bad guy? (NO...it makes you a guy who needs to be more aware of how he says things).

Or, are you really saying everyone else is wrong? Look, It's NOT easy to hear this stuff.

BTW, Did you take in the post I wrote about HOW you say things? It can, and USUALLY outweighs WHAT we say.

I'm a lawyer so I see myself as a wordsmith. When I write, I expect my words to be taken at face value. But in person---we are non verbally communicating WAY WAY more than we realize.

As a L, it's hard for me to digest that, but I have learned to. I had to.

Juries can forget words I say a lot BUT they'll remember how I seemed to feel that day, way more... WTH?


So, my guess is you recall content, whereas your w, AND others,

recall the message they received, not necessarily what you meant to send...

Instead of getting all defensive, (as I would, I'm sure), I'll pass on someone else's comment I found so useful.

When we hear this type of "criticizm" , we need to learn to hear it more as

Valuable Feedback...

Make sense?

[movingon-1968]

Wednesday, W ran over a 10" long nail - flat tire. Had to pick her up and take her to work - no biggie. I spent half the day just trying to get that fixed because it seemed that the deck was stacked against me - long story, not related to R moving on .

Had to go to W's work last night to look at our truck. Seems it was making some funky noise from the same wheel she had the blow-out on. Short story, got W and the truck home. D21 & D13 made dinner for us - ready shortly after we got home; was very nice.

Then... she did it again. We were having a conversation at dinner (all four of us), when W made a comment about something that happened probably 14 years ago. The sad part is, I can't even remember what the comment was now. But, I do remember my response. In a slow, calm voice I said the following:

W, I realize how that must have made you feel. I have apologized before for doing that, and I'll apologize again - I'm sorry. However, I'm not going to continue to apologize for everything I've done in the past, for the rest of my life. I don't throw things in your face that you have said or done that made me feel bad, minimized or neglected - and yes there are numerous examples I could give. My point is, I have forgiven and moved on and have no desire to re-open old wounds - and to be honest I simply don't think that's a fair or healthy activity for a relationship.

For the rest of the night, I acted like it never happened. I worked out, loaded and started the dishwasher, sat down for a few minutes to watch TV with the family...

Yes, I was irritated that she brought up the past again. Actually, I'm glad she didn't ask for an example because I doubt I could remember much. I know events like that happened because I can remember how what she did or said made me feel. But, I NEVER dedicated myself to remembering those times. I do have to wonder if it isn't a defense mechanism she uses to remind her of why she is/was angry.

My comment seemed to have hit home because she was rather humble for the rest of the night. Every time I got up to do something she'd ask me what I was doing. The rest of the night was pleasant and uneventful.

[labug]

You do tend to be wordy, as you said. This might be better.

"W, I realize how that must have made you feel. I have apologized before for doing that, and I'll apologize again - I'm sorry. However, I'm not going to continue to apologize for everything I've done in the past, for the rest of my life. I don't throw things in your face that you have said or done that made me feel bad, minimized or neglected - and yes there are numerous examples I could give. My point is, I have forgiven and moved on and have no desire to re-open old wounds - and to be honest I simply don't think that's a fair or healthy activity for a relationship."

This ^^^ negated her and became all about you which could be why she keeps bringing things up.

W, you've said something similar before, are you feeling hurt and you think I'm not hearing that or do I continue to do something similar?

See where the conversation takes you but try not to cut it off before it ever gets started.

[movingon-1968]

Good point labug.

I guess in a round about way I was trying to set a boundary - she has done this for years and I always feel like I'm on the defensive in conversations. It did catch me by surprise since we weren't even talking about R stuff anyhow. Maybe it was a test that I failed miserably last night...?

[25yearsmlc]

Good point labug.

I guess in a round about way I was trying to set a boundary -

you THINK so? I think you begin with it, probably sincerely but then let your anger and scorekeeping (which is what you accuse HER of doing) come up again.

And I'm surprised you had to say ALL this in front of your d's...but Labug's totally spot on here.

she has done this for years and I always feel like I'm on the defensive in conversations.

So um, exactly how many years? Oh wait, that is scorekeeping! Do you want to go "from this day forward" or not? I gave you a script that should have been shorter, but you made it longer AND said it front of the girls.

Just try the "W, I thought I apologized for that already. Did I misstate something or did I do it again? I hope not."

Stress going forward, NOT how SHE keeps doing this...or you'll be playing the same destructive game you say she plays.

YOU have to change the dynamic by modelling it for her.


It did catch me by surprise since we weren't even talking about R stuff anyhow. Maybe it was a test that I failed miserably last night...?

not "miserably". It's better than fighting, though it was a type of fight. It's just that you felt you "won" this round & she might have heard something valuable in what you said INSIDE the pain it also caused her. Let's hope she isn't going thru her old journals for more examples of your past wrongs...

I want you to see NEW ways of resolving conflicts so there are no losers.