Here we go loopty loo. Here we go loopty li.

[albamarie]

[b]There is a theory that they do sometimes indeed want to get caught, to have someone else "make" them change, because they can't do it themselves, at least easily, OR to prove how "bad" they are and should be tossed aside so they can continue their self-destruction....this is where the patience from us is required, to NOT be the one to force them, but to let them figure it out, and do the hard work, themselves...man, it is difficult, yes?

TS - is this when an ea can be worse, it's like she's been given the power to expose his doings, without consequences, she can do no wrong when exposing him, its like he needs that. What if he tries to balance the bad behavior with coming to me for confirmation that he is really good? He has to figure it out for himself , but do I engage in giving the light he's seeking?


Having a spirit of forgiveness and compassion towards H has been keeping me strong. I think I would completely crumble if I wasn't trying my best to be understanding and trying not to focus on how I have been wronged. This experience has made me more compassionate not only towards him, but others. I don't know if I will ever have a relationship with H again, but I feel like I am being put through the fire, and I'm becoming a better person for it.[/b]

Raine - your words mirror my thoughts exactly, if I took any other path than this I would not have made it this far without destroying myself! We cannot let them bring us down with them. Like everyone says we're on our own journey as well, keep up the good thoughts, I enjoy reading how your handling these trying days!

Best dm

[Raine]

T^2, yes that totally helps. That's what it seems like to me and it concerns me. And for me, it is to the point of, what does it really even matter anymore? Is there really a difference between 3, 4, 20? And like we've talked about before, I would take this kind of infidelity over him being in a serious relationship with one woman. I much prefer him seeking no strings attached, even though that seems to go against the MLC grain. It makes me feel like somewhere inside him, the attachment is still to me.

But, when he seems to be playing more dangerously, where other people are becoming involved and getting hurt, people he was very close to pre-MLC, that concerns me more and also gives me more to deal with. Now there are other family members he may have a hard time facing. I had to talk at length with my brother to let things be, because he wanted to rip H to shreds.

My hope was to keep things as private as possible so that if he does come out of this, it's not uncomfortable for him to be around old friends and family. I have control over what I will and won't accept, but I can't control everyone else. And even if there is no R with H, he is still the boys father, and I don't want people looking at him negatively. He's still going to be a part of their lives no matter what. I don't need any life event to be uncomfortable because of the way others feel about him.

I do think my attitude helps immensely. Others follow my lead. If I was a wreck and upset, that would send everyone into protection mode and attack mode on H.

Dawn, I've been so impressed with your strength and what you're dealing with right now with your H. That took a lot to stand up for what you will and not accept in your home. Well done to you!

This journey really does make us stronger. I know at BD I was willing to make any kind of sacrifice, even having a marriage where we were only together for the kids. Like you, I'm no longer willing to be in any relationship where I am being disrespected and boundaries are broken. I have far too much self-respect for that. Being happy with myself is far more important to me than being married.

[albamarie]

Being happy with myself is far more important to me than being married.


Again, very well put! Thank you so much for sharing. It's funny how over time, the posts I gravitate to change in accordance with my own growth and help so much along the way. It's like being at a big party and by the end of the night you just know who would love to meet again the next day for coffee!

[Raine]

Dawn, I find that too. There are certain sitches and posters I just feel connected to and I keep up on everything they're saying, even if I don't always post back. I would love to meet for coffee too!

...

Something happened today, and I'm still reeling a bit from it. If I had any doubts remaining about "Is this MLC?" they are gone. Sorry this turned into a massive novel, but I didn't want to break it up. I'm really interested in feedback.

H has been reaching out more last few days. Calling for odd reasons. If I text him back, he will immediately phone me. Well this morning, I did what I'm likely not supposed to, but I just could not shake the feeling that I needed to do this. I likely broke all the rules. But I got some real insights.

I messaged him about someone. He immediately phones. I basically just let him know to be careful. He acts like he doesn't know any better, although I'm well aware he does. It's the most real conversation we've had in who knows how long, even though I know he is not being fully honest. I told him just to be careful about regrets. One day he will have clarity and he will have those things with him. I could tell things were heading in the direction of me sounding like I thought we would get back together at some point, and so I said, I have no expectations that we will ever be together again. But whoever you are with, I want that person to be amazing, and it may be a difficult thing to have to confide in that person. I insinuated that I felt he was seeking out multiple women, and he said that he wasn’t and that he was more interested in a relationship. He also then said but I know him better than he knows himself. Hmm.

Things came up about our past. He told me he was really upset with me that he was screaming out for help and I ignored it, that I ignored all the signs. That he judged me for it, but he has gotten over that. I told him I was sorry that he felt that way and I feel really bad I wasn't there for him when he needed me. We talked about not having our needs meet, being in our own worlds and focus on the kids. I admitted to him I was resentful, that I did want to meet his needs but I was resentful my needs weren't being met either and that I was wrong for that. I apologized for things and told him I felt bad I had made him feel that way. He didn't, as to be expected.

He opened up that there are things in his past that are coming to light that he is having a hard time dealing with, but doesn't walk to talk about them. He all but confirmed there was a major event, trigger, mistake that happened a few years ago. That he doesn't know the timelines of everything but one day he will figure it out and will talk to me about it.

Somewhere in the convo it came up about other men asking him about me. I don't know where he was going with this. I told him I am so far removed from any relationship right now with anyone, including him, but when that does happen, I will not be scraping the bottom of the barrel. That these men are nowhere near the caliber I would go for.

I told him that I learned that happiness comes from inside of me, and I can't expect him or any other person to make me happy. And I want to be with someone who realizes that too, that doesn't depend on anyone else for his happiness. And together we will build upon that happiness. I said I've realized that counting on anyone to make you happy is only going to end in disappointment and failure.

I told him my focus right now is on the kids. That what has been going on for generations will not happen with our kids. They will not go through this.

He had to go and said that it was good to know we were still in the same place. Which was really funny to me, but I didn’t laugh of course. I said I’m so far removed from the place I was in. He said, that’s good, you need to start moving on. I said that’s not what I mean, and he basically said I need to move on, and ended the convo at that.

I’m a bit grated by this. I message him again about 10 mins later and I tell him he doesn’t need to lie to me, he really doesn’t. He gets off his conference call and calls me right away. I just tell him I don’t feel like he is being honest with me. He tells me he cares too much about me to lie to me. That he may not be disclosing things right now, but he’s not lying about it. He told me he felt it was important enough to talk to me right away, even though he was supposed to be on this call.

He says he will remove said person as a friend and I just say it doesn’t matter. Just be careful. I told him that he can make those choices for himself that I just felt the need to warn him, although that likely just pushes him further into it.

He says some things I know have been bothering him, like that I will go weeks without playing games with him. I told him that I have boundaries around me. That he can do what he likes outside of my boundaries, but that I am not okay with doing things with him when he has relationships and friendships with other women. He questioned me on the friendship part, and I said yes. I am not okay with the flirting and friendships with other women.

He told me he had a recently divorced friend get all over his case about being stagnant. To get off the pot and that others have been questioning him, but that he needs to do things on his own timeline. He made mention of not having any expectations of us being back together again, that maybe we will move on or maybe and having to come back begging for forgiveness and not knowing if I would ever even take him back.

I told him to let me know what he needs from me, that I know there are things that he needs to work through and as much as I want to help him, I know I can’t, and he doesn’t need me too. I told him I was really glad that he was doing things on his own timeline and not listening to someone who doesn’t even know him.

I told him that I don’t need to talk about all of the stuff. That he doesn’t need to feel like he has to come crawling to me for forgiveness. That I don’t want to talk about those things. I said they’re just signs to me of much bigger problems and I care about him too much to make him feel that way. There is already enough pain.

I hate these feeling that he kept putting out there that he has needed me, and I wasn’t there, in the past and now.

Then he told me this: "No matter what, I love you. I can’t tell you that for your benefit, because I’m messed up. But I love you in whatever way works in my brain that I can’t explain." I told him I love you too, but I don’t tell him that because I know it’s too hard for him right now.

So then a few hours later we start messaging. I told him thanks for talking. He told me it really stressed him out, but he needed it and needed to let me know some things. He said that he is dealing with his stress really well by focusing on the bigger picture. He also focuses on other things, like work. He says he has also been setting a schedule and not deviating from it, even if something else comes up. He just says no because he is following his calendar. He says it keeps him sane.

So then I went back to the post-D friend and said it was interesting to me she got on him. That I’ve come to realize people don’t get what this situation is and want to stack it into their experience. He was really happy I got that, that it was exactly how he felt. He agreed this situation was very different and not like a normal marriage gone bad, turn divorce. I told him I was listening to my heart and not what the world dictates. That this isn't about me or us right now.
...
My expectations are replay will continue for months and more to come, but that I feel better and he seems to feel better, and I've planted some seed that may come into play in the future.

[job]

Raine,
You handled the conversations quite well. Yes, your h is in mlc and he's just now exploring all of those stuffed down emotions and the triggers that may have caused him to go back in time to visit the events that stunted his emotional growth. He's not ready to discuss them w/anyone because he's still exploring.

As for you not being there to help him. You are not a mind reader. If he didn't tell you that he truly needed your help, how would you have known? Many mlcers say such things, but never voiced their thoughts/concerns at the time they thought we should have been there for them.

You've planted the seeds, allow God to water them and let's pray that he will continue to talk to you.

Keep your expectations at zero at all times. Be a friend, a listener and if he asks for advice or your thoughts on something, by all means be honest w/him and share your thoughts and/or advice.

Hang in there!

[Raine]

snodderly thank you so much. It's a relief to have had the conversation and to have it over with. You comment let me recall a few more things. The mind reading has come up multiple times. Today he said that he would have been there for me, and that he was, that he always knew what things were going on with me. I told him, yes, because I told you everything. And I did. Absolutely everything, probably to a fault.

He has said to me multiple times that I can read people so well, that I can walk into a situation and just know what is going on, but not him. It just sounds like a way to take the blame off of himself for not communicating and holding it all in. I always thought he was being honest and open with me. I had no need to analyze him before this.

I told him that I trust him in his decision making with the kids, money, etc. That I trust his judgement and that he will make good decisions, that he doesn't need me to make decisions for him. Saying that, I said he could run things by me anytime, and that he has always been my sounding board. He said he remembered that. I'm assuming it's pretty apparent to him that I don't talk to him about me or ask him his advice anymore or really talk to him about anything.

[Takevowsserious]

Hi Raine-

I'm glad your H opened up to you, even if you have to sift through some things to get truth and reality.

You are right, you are not a mind reader, and shouldn't be expected to be.

I think that after this big talk, maybe it will be easier for him to approach you about things in the future. He knows where you stand and how you feel.

I think he's still trying to figure that out about himself.

No doubt he was being truthful with you about things in his past he is trying to deal with. My H referred to them as his "demons". I think just listening and not probing or prying may make them feel safe that they can open up to us without judgement.

Build upon that friendship with him. Nurture those tiny seeds to make them grow.

Continue to take care of yourself there too, mama! Lil' man will be here soon

[reachingHigher]

Hi Raine!

I read about your convo's and messages with H. I think it's so positive he wants to communicate with you. I like what you said here:

I told him that I learned that happiness comes from inside of me, and I can't expect him or any other person to make me happy.

And of course, I like many other things you said.

You have a positive outlook, despite some very trying circumstances!
Thank you for your honesty and courage!

Hang in there,
Hugs,
rH

[Raine]

Thanks so much Snodderly, T, and rH. I feel so much more positive about that convo now.

Went to a thing for S8 tonight and it was so comfortable to be around H. He kept teasing me about stuff, like old times, and at one point I did one of those playful slaps on the shoulder and then thought to myself what the heck am I doing? It was just a total natural reaction. There was this flirtatious tension. H helped me to the car after and it just felt like he wanted to hug me, but I just got in the car. Just this awkward state of being where I miss him so much, but I also know he has this weird second life and I am so not okay with it.

So about that second life...it is getting whack-a-do crazy. Like replay just went on speed. Things are getting worse and expanding to involve more people. H seems pretty normal around me. A bit immature, but he always was. But with other people, his slew of women, I swear he is 14. This is something new. I think before he would use he is lonely/depressed, sympathy, white-knight understanding tactics with these women. I get that mlcers live out their adolescence in replay, but he is acting and talking like he is 14 to them. I don't know how these women are not turned off. Even my married cousin, he is talking to her in this begging, childish manner. It's crazy. The only way to describe it is a 14 yr old that has access to a bunch of women and has no experience, and as you would expect a 14 yr old in such a placement, he has zero boundaries. It's kind of freaky to see multiple versions of him, like one he is with me/work/old friends and this replay version. This is the kind of thing I thought would happen during the beginning of acceptance, like HB talks about, the three faces of eve.

[job]

Raine,
The different personalities are more evident in replay. He's regressed in many ways back to 13/14 w/the hormones raging. He is trying on different masks to see which one will fit properly. Sometimes it will the 14 yr old and within minutes a 25 year old.

Please keep in mind that what Hearts' Blessing wrote is what happen during her journey and not everyone will experience the same things. The same would apply to Jim Conway as well. Each crisis is different and they all have some similiarities, but w/a different twist due to personalities and childhood issues.

Grab a seat on the curb, we are serving up popcorn and spirits. The parade has started and you don't want to miss any of it.