25, your point about the journey is something I've been thinking too and not phrasing it as eloquently. Today might be all we have, why spend it not enjoying life because we're not at x or y endpoint we crave? I've been guilty of a lot of wallowing lately and will try to use this wisdom to snap out of it and get some perspective. Thanks for all you do here.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
25, your point about the journey is something I've been thinking too and not phrasing it as eloquently. Today might be all we have, why spend it not enjoying life because we're not at x or y endpoint we crave? I've been guilty of a lot of wallowing lately and will try to use this wisdom to snap out of it and get some perspective. Thanks for all you do here.
You're welcome & thank YOU for your insights. I used to think ahead so much, I'd say "when I'm 80, I don't want any regrets"...but I worried a lot about the next day/month. So my "yesterdays" were filled with worries about my tomorrows and that affects so much of how we view our lives NOW.
H does this too. If I find a travel magazine and want to DREAM of a place to go, H might well say "have to pay for d15's college FIRST", which is 1) not actually true and 2) a big fat drag thing to say.
He means well. H worries about money much more than I do but I also think he feels both guilt about the cost of his "MLC" (Wish we had a different term for it b/c it's more complex than that) on our finances, which were HIGH as heck...and resentment at me for not earning more (which was a choice I made when he left BECAUSE I agreed with the MC that our kids should not lose both parents at the same time...
it's a paradox b/c on one hand, the more he works the more I stay around home but that means the more I don't earn as much, the more he feels compelled work more. NIce circular reasoning here. That is an issue we'll also have to address.
My son again vented to me about h and I called the MC/T to see if he can faclilitate a meeting. D15 says she won't go but I may make her go and just stay silent if that is her preference.
They don't know the MC like I do, so they need to establish trust with him. Maybe I should take them first all by themselves??
THEN if Dr.R- can delineat the parameters for all,
we can have a meeting & I won't worry as much that H will feel ambushed. I do worry about that, and that he or s25 will lose their temper and say something they can't really take back. In effect I worry that without parameters, things will escalate or deteriorate.
What else is my biggest fear? Well...that I'm missing something. Or in denial about something, which I doubt but you never know. I'm a good rationalizer, which is what made my anger issues harder to address b/c I felt "right" to be angry. I'd defend it not as anger but "a boundary".
Took a long time to say to myself, "so what if you're 'right'? How is that helping YOU now?"
AND I think I fear that my kids think they are IN the marriage. They're not. They are in the family.
It's a weird line to draw. But something about them telling me HOW h and I should interact, has value, but is also really annoying. S25 is no expert at relationships...but I'll ponder that...
Also, here's something I posted elsewhere, related to communication.
Many have heard that 90% of communication is non-verbal, but they don't take that in really,
maybe b/c they don't see or hear how THEY communicate. They only recall WHAT they said. I like to do theater and have studied acting. My older kids are in the industry. So, Here is a script to make the point.
Man to Woman: "I love you."
The End
Okay so the man said he loves her. He must love her, right? I mean, that's what he said.
But what if he said it--
while looking at his watch or noticing the clock on the wall?
or rolled his eyes?
or sighed?
or looked at the floor? Closed his eyes? Winced?
What if he yelled it at her?
What if he breathlessly told her, while making full eye contact and with a wide grin on his face?
Same exact words...very different messages.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I would think the MC meeting is something your H should be initiating it right?
Why do you feel the need to fix their relationships? I mean at the very basic level - I know why.. but you are putting in the work here as far as I see.. or am i mistaken?
In your eyes - what would your kids and H be doing differently towards each other that would make you believe forgiveness/effort is happening?
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
I would think the MC meeting is something your H should be initiating it right? I planted the seed in H's mind about a family meeting but regardless I want the kids to have at least one meeting with the T so he can meet/know them, which will help him, help ME...make sense?
2 issues. MY R with everyone and
2) the kids & h's relationships and how they affect ME.
Why do you feel the need to fix their relationships? I mean at the very basic level - I know why.. but you are putting in the work here as far as I see.. or am i mistaken? I hear you. And I worry about that aspect.
As you know, I feel pulled into their disputes. And I want to protect the hearts and the progress that has been made.
SOME of my getting pulled is okay and natural I think. ANd clearly h has the right to discuss parental issues with me obviously. We ought to.
But they resent him and he's not seeing it and I do not want to be the messenger.
By involving a 3rd party, aren't I stepping aside? That's the goal...
2) I want them all (especially the kids) to get tools so THEY can communicate w/their dad safely, and without me intervening and or trying to protect everyone.
SOME of their problems with him are unfair. Some are fair.
In your eyes - what would your kids and H be doing differently towards each other that would make you believe forgiveness/effort is happening?
First & foremost, RELAXING around each other. Not reading into everything and feeling defensive.
NOT coming up to me and telling me something that bugged them, e.g.,, "did you hear THAT? He/she said that 'x' and 'y' and that just grates on me..." I always say, "Tell him/them that!" Unless it's too hurtful.
I believe some things have to be said though. The kids never got to hear him say he was sorry for leaving and sorry for what he has missed out on.
OTOH HE resented them for not writing more when he was overseas (I pretty forced them to w/guilt, but not that much. I understood their position but found a middle ground).
He is the parent; he deserves their respect. But he did leave us. He owes them something like an apology or some sort of truce about it, doesn't he?
I appreciate the feedback. This is new territory for me.
Where is THIS chapter in DR?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
hmm.. I have two different trains of thought. Maybe I'll write them both and some sense will come of them. So prepare for the book.. lol
Either way - I think your H does need to apologize. He did leave and as much as it sukks.. it caused abandonment issues in all of your kids. I think you know that's true.
So in a way - I think HE needs to put in the extra work since he was the cause.
Parents teach their children. You are asking them to reach across the table, to listen to the others perspective, to put their own fears aside and to own up to their mistakes......
.... to the VERY person who instilled alot of those fears to begin with.
THAT is such a hard task for anybody let alone the young'ins that they are.
AND I don't think they see any benefit to that... especially since they are not being taught that by their father. In fact, he is just reinforcing their actions with his own.
He reaches out... to a point ...that's comfortable.. but then retracts when it becomes too hard or too awkward.
He also gets frustrated when he doesn't get the result he desires.
Even his decisions now about where he is working - he justifies with what is arguable very wise financial reasoning.
I don't fault him for this and I can see validity in it all... but I'm not his daughter and I'm don't possess the emotional fog your kids do.
But I do believe that if you want love, you need to give love. If you want forgiveness, give it.. etc.
And I don't see enough GIVING from him yet. I think in his heart he wants to.. but he's blocked by his own fears or expectations....
... but true giving isn't really about self.. otherwise it wouldn't be true.
So a part of me believes your H needs to give more... and keep giving.. and giving.. Much like DB and I believe you say it often.
Consistent Behavior + Ample Time = changes THEY can believe in.
OTOH - My dad never apologized to me. I'm not sure he ever will.. but I don't think it matters.
My forgiveness of my father had nothing to do with him and our relationship. It was about freeing my soul, accepting him for who he is, and understanding that my abandonment issues started with him, but needed to stop with me.
So of course I think your kids should forgive your H and try to have a relationship with him regardless of his actions... but that is also a very hard route....
and to be completely honest 25, I really don't think I would have gotten there without God. So I'm not really sure how to advise that way.
Regardless of what I think - I know your heart aches over this issue.. and I know that your kids love you very much so they will probably go to this meeting.. just for that very reason.
BUT People have to want a reason to stop the heartache. The kicker will be - how do you as his wife AND their mom do exactly that?
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
SURE That's it! You found the secret to EVERYONE'S PROBLEMS!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU...
(what the he!! were WE FOOLS doing posting here for years?? We acted like different marriages had different problems (???!!!) with some aspects in common, when all this time it was so simple!
All it took was someone SMART ENOUGH - like YOU, to solve it all...)
sheer brilliance.
25,
I wanted to bring this over here. This is what your response to SM was that bothered me. And if you read it from the outside, I think it might bother you as well...
This is what bothered me and I find it a bit ironic that I am watching a show with Joyce Meyer right now, who just released a new book about the power of our words. She is saying that words are a container for power and we should be aware of that.
You are defensive of the coaches because they helped you.
Not everyone has had the good fortune to get a DB coach.
I am defensive of these boards, because of what they did for me.
I hate the moderation that exists now, although I understand it.
If there was moderation when I first came here looking for help, I would not have stayed because I needed immediate help.
I try to always remember what I went through, where I was, and how long it took me to "get it".
I think you help a lot of people. Just like Starsky and others do. There are so few vets posting now. And the newcomers...are at the beginning. I think it is our responsibility if we are going to post, to be aware of that. And to be really aware of the words we use and the ideas that we put out there...
While there way a ton of drama about the DB coaches over there, that was less of an issue for me.
Personally, while I do wonder occassionally about advice that posters say the DB coaches give them, I wonder if they (the coaches) have the same information that we have here and I also wonder if the person heard them correctly.
The thing with the coaches is that they are practicing Solution Based Theory. They are looking for solutions. Period. So...if your S says you don't touch them enough...try touching...see if that makes a difference.
Regardless of other circumstances going on in the R, it addresses the specific complaint.
So anyway, these are just my thoughts...
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
I wanted to bring this over here. This is what your response to SM was that bothered me. And if you read it from the outside, I think it might bother you as well...
Regular 2x4's aren't working on SM, he needs 8x8's.
Regular 2x4's aren't working on SM, he needs 8x8's.
What he needs, is help finding his way, not having it defined for him...
Right or wrong, his thoughts and feelings are his own, and if he needs to try all of the wrong things in order to find the right things, then we, as a Solution Based Support Group, should be asking for a way to help him, instead of smacking him around.
So if 2x4's aren't working, then we should all ask ourselves why we would try an 8x8....
As I posted over there, it is HIS thread. If WE feel frustrated, it probably shows too much and WE need to move on.
I pondered Cats post (though I was off on which one I guess) but the realization I had was that don't have to appoint myself the DB coach defender (fwiw, the help I got here on these boards was a HUGE release for me, and a healthy support tool...cannot say enough about it).
I felt that others, not SM, were challenging the "DB ways" and there are times I think THIS is not the place for THAT. But our roles here as "vets" are undefined and when we see a point of view we THINK is not DBing,
maybe we have to agree to disagree and move on.
ALSO, fwiw, CAT--I DID say my typical gut feeling is as yours, re the coach advice. That is, if some poster tell us that their DB coach said 'X & Y" and none of us think that sounds right
I almost always feel there has been cherry picking/and or editing.
SM has misquoted me more than once so I also wondered about that...but still,
as you say the solution based nature of this site is what appeals to me.
At a workshop I attended recently, there was a man who had been very troubled with intimacy, due to extreme sexual abuse he suffered as a child. Very sad.
As a L, I used to do those cases and even for ME, this man's tale was a rough one. The point was, okay, it happened.
THAT ABUSE was terrible...and...so...what now?? How to go forward?
I think newbies get stuck on BUT WHY?? And God knows, I sure did.
But really once we nurture them thru the phase of just wanting to end the pain of it all and to learn to BREATHE and that they will survive, etc...
THEN the other work begins...the finding or creating solutions.
Like I said somewhere around here, there is a line between those two phases.
I have to work on letting someone "wallow" a bit more sometimes before they go forward.
OTOH I worry if they do it too long, they'll miss one of the best most horrible chances for personal growth, that comes our way in life.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
