We have a joint checking and savings. My W just opened up a account for herself as she is looking for a job outside the home. Are kids are getting older and she has been working on raising them. Before I knew about the A, I agreed to fund her account that was to be used as "fun" money. The A is changing that or it may.
OK, good. That's almost EXACTLY the same as my sitch. I decided to let my wife know (after I had safely firewalled the finances) that I would continue to pay for the family's needs -- including hers -- and whatever of the kids' wants I could afford, but I would no longer pay for ANYTHING that she used to carry on her affair. Not hair coloring, not her tummy tuck payments, not stuff from Victoria's secret, and CERTAINLY not her cellphone.
I would suggest you do the same, unless and until some judge orders you to do otherwise. Almost NO judge will expect a spouse to pay for their spouse's infidelity, so you should be on solid ground. When in doubt, err on the side of taking care of the family's needs, and just focus on the obvious stuff (cellphone, training sessions, etc.).
My plan? 1. Talked to my attorney already and i know my options. Adultery in my state is a crime and also bars her from alimony. ***This changes almost EVERYTHING about your strategy and tactics, but it's also very good news. It doesn't change your DB strategy; just your legal-financial strategy. If this is the case, you will want to gather incontrovertible evidence of her adultery and keep it in a safe place. "Snooping" isn't really DBing, so I'd ask your attorney and a good P.I. about this, because it does potentially affect you and your kids' finances for the rest of your lives if things don't work out (and I still think you have a great shot at saving your marriage!);
2. Finances are in good standing. I have a plan to shut off debit, credit and checking before I confront her.
***Excellent.
From that point forward, any grocery or shopping for the kids will be done with cash. H “fun” money comes from H own account.
***I would recommend working up a detailed family budget (if you don't already have one), and totaling up how much your wife needs each week (or each month, or twice a month, or however often you get paid) for basic family needs. Then transfer that amount from your new, you-only account (where your paycheck gets direct-deposited) into the joint family account. If it involves stuff for the kids, you'd be perfectly within your rights to ask for receipts; some do this, some don't (especially if she uses a debit card and you can see the expenses in the online banking anyway). Again, a good FT (family therapist) can help you with this, as could your DB coach;
3. I will consult a DB coach for boundaries ***Excellent. Townsend's book ("Boundaries") is also excellent, and considered a definitive work on the subject.
4. I will consult a DB coach for help with the best path forward with household finances
***See above. This should be discussed with your ATTORNEY (for the legal aspects) and your DB coach (for the DBing ramnifications). Also, I would put whatever arrangement you come up with IN WRITING, and clearly state in there that you will:
a. continue to meet the family's needs, as you always have; and
b. follow this arrangement until some judge tells you otherwise, at which point you will obviously comply but you feel this is fair and appropriate since you aren't willing to pay for her to conduct her affair;
5. I need to make a decision on whether or not I ask her to leave the house. That may be a temporary feel good for me but I believe the best chance for DB is keeping her in the house. Need advice on that.
***Discuss this with your attorney. I'd recommend ASAP that you get an initial (usually free) consultation with a GOOD family law attorney, preferably one that specializes in "men's right" and paternal custody issues. This does NOT mean that you're getting divorced, or that you are even going to FILE for divorce right now . . . you're just trying to better understand your rights, responsibilities, opportunities and potential threats. It's wise. In most jurisdictions, there are "abandonment" issues at play if YOU leave the home, and you also may not legally be able to force HER to.
6. I will propose Retrovaille
***We can talk more about this, but I don't think this is the best time for it. This -- and my thoughts below about transparency -- are best presented when the wayward spouse ASKS back into the marriage. However, if you feel your marriage is in serious crisis and she is willing to go, you may want to consider it if for no other reason than it's "breakthrough" potential. It's that powerful of a weekend.
7. Transparency will be the big issue. It must include cell phone etc. She has been using Word with Friends to sext him.
***You're confusing "transparency" with "boundaries." You're in no position to demand transparency right now, not until SHE says she is willing to end her affair, and asks you what it will take to return to work on the marriage. SHE IS FLEEING FROM YOU right now, Engine, and from your marriage. If you start demanding things, most will backfire.
You SHOULD, however, decide what your short, core list of personal "boundaries of personal integrity" are, and ask for those. In my sitch, it was "no texting or calling OM from inside of our family's home, no calling or texting him in front of our kids from ANYWHERE, no leaving the boys home alone for extended periods of time, unsupervised and unfed, while you go meet with OM, and no squandering of the family's finances on her affair. These are for YOU and YOUR KIDS, not to be controlling of HER. Think "Papabear" and his cubs.
NO-CONTACT and TRANSPARENCY will come later, if and only if she asks you "What will it take?" to return to the marriage to reconcile.
8. The one thing that I have learned is to like who I am and GAL over the past 8 weeks. It feels great. I have already been working on me. ***EXCELLENT. "Rediscovering Engine" will be one of the two or three greatest things to come out of this ordeal. Embrace it!
What am I missing?
***I (and others) will let you know, but this looks like a pretty good list. What you add to it will depend a lot on what your attorney and your DB coach says.
Much to say but my first concern and question is WHY are you telling your children?
Please read the DR book again, pps 195 on...and "impediments to saving the marriage" which I think is around pp.151 and on.
ALSO, here's a little info about your adultery claim--if your specialist attorney says she won't get alimony, I'll defer to that. But it's not a guarantee as I read it AND for sure, custody is not automatically awarded to you. LEGAL CITATION Generally, a South Carolina family law attorney or judge in family court does not consider adultery as a primary factor in addressing custody issues. In South Carolina, adultery and custody case of Davenport v. Davenport, the mother of the child committed adultery and the boyfriend spent five nights with the mother while the children were present The Court still awarded the mother custody of the children despite this behavior which could be perceived as risky or immoral. The Court justified their reasoning so as to say that child custody is granted to a party not to reward one party or punish the other.
This was recently upheld in 2011 when the Court of Appeals reversed a decision to give a father primary custody and instead gave it back to the mother that had an affair. See Moeller v. Moeller, 394 S.C. 365, 714 S.E. 2d 898 (Ct. App. 2011). The Courts seem to be of the opinion that moral choices are only relevant in in caes where it affects the welfare of the child. Stroman v. Williams, 291 S.C. 376, 353 S.E.2d 704 (Ct. App. 1987).
So make sure you understand all the risks you face, not just the hoped for result. ALso, I thought you wanted to save the marriage.
This "plan" is more akin to the Normandy Invasion with her total capitulation in mind, rather than a restored marriage.
Again, I'd refer you to the DR book...you want solutions or retribution?
And are you assuming she'll want to STAY in the marriage?
B/C if it were me, and it's not, I realize, I might feel that---
I already justified the affair in my head/heart &...it's your fault. So now you are going to corner ME w/these threats? Okay, then let's go to war.
I mean, you either "neglected me" or "Deserted me" or did some other UN husbandly thing that made me feel unloved, etc etc. (I'm not saying it's true, I'm saying I doubt that SHE believes she had no reason for the affair).
And if you read the DR book, she has a point. YOU SAID this is out of character for her. So she's not a slutty immoral woman.
Instead of immediately pointing solely at MLC, try on the possibility that you played a role in it and that - you can show her YOUR changes...which, btw, I have not heard much about...
Originally Posted By: EngineThatCould
Left out an important part of that plan and that is the discussion with my W about A and OM. I am struggling with how best to start that discussion and what I need to include. I know I need to use my brain and not the emotional side of me. I also need to talk with my kids and let them know that this is not there fault, that Mom is not a bad person, but she has made some bad decisions.
FWIW, (though I suspect Starsky I will disagree on this), I firmly oppose this ^^choice of yours.
I see no point in it but to assign blame & involve the children in a painful ordeal they have no need of. Plus, it makes it more likely your w will defend her choices, not re-examine them and regret them, as you wish she would.
If you read the Div Remedy book MORE carefully, pay attention specifically to p.199 et al.
Good luck.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
25years, Yes, this is out of character for her. We started dating in HS and I have never suspected anything. She has been loyal. However, back in September or October, although I didn’t know it at the time, she developed the classic MLC traits. A small note about this^^. You mention her "loyalty", which is a lovely and often rare quality. Right after, you inserted "However" and followed it with a "negater". Try not to do that and see it when it happens. Especially if it's part of your marital dynamic.
I will call a DB coach for help on the boundaries. We used a marriage counselor here that actually placed me with the book Divorce Remedy and coached along those lines as well. Sounds like she was a good pro m MC. Nice to find. (We had to hunt, and when I say "we", I mean me.)
She was at a point with my W that there was nothing else she could do. She gave us 4 choices which included reconciliation which the W didn’t want, trial separation, legal separation, or living parallel lives in the same house. She wanted us to come back. My W didn’t want to go back and has decided for herself that she wants a parallel life. Pretty good gig if you can get it. Have weekly sex in your hotel with your trainer, but what you want and party to all hours of the night. IF you ever get the chance, I hope you ask her what SHE thinks a parallel life would look like. I'm not sure she'd describe it the way you do.
As far as the need for a trainer, she has suffered with sever back pain for almost 7 years. She started working with this trainer and he helped her lose 35 pounds and did so while not only not creating any back pain, but it has gone away all together. Medically, the x-rays don’t lie. She still has disk issues but she feel better now than ever. No small feat. Good for her. And, since I have back pain that no trainer has helped me with (I swear they think I said "Please hurt my back MORE") I can see why she feels good about the work they have done. Nonetheless...
I'm more concerned with what you guys are doing together.
She says she cares for me and loves me but is not in love with me. meaning...the "spark is gone"?
We have not had sex in 6 months. She has been sleeping in a separate room for that time blaming her poor sleeping habits. This^^^ is a huge fat red flag to me. Seriously...what were you thinking this lack of sex meant? No poor sleeping habits cause zero sex for months... She also said that I have become less affectionate over time. That was probably true Don't gloss over the feelings of rejection she felt, or for how long.
but I have changed and she has recognized that but the more I tried to make up for that, the more she pushed back and therefor DR and the 180. That has not worked yet. so you changed (= all fixed) and yet she blocked you from more...
I mean, do you see how this makes her wrong and you "Right"? It sounds to me as if a lot of complacency happened in this m. I know how easy it is for that to happen! But one sign to me that is easy to spot is the 'no sex for months" sign. She is still at home although when my plan is in place and I confront H, that may change. my guess is that your plan as it is now, will end the m. Maybe it has to, maybe not. I feel that with time, counseling and love, I can overcome the pain of the A. We are human after all. I have never had an A and after being part of this from my end, I would never want to hurt someone like this. I can move past it. there are resources out there, and here, for YOU and for YOUR WIFE.
She felt betrayed, believe it or not. Now you do. So you will both need to learn how to forgive
and as someone who never saw it growing up, I can tell you firsthand that it is hard to do. You have to learn how. It's a time consuming process.
But yes there are tools for you. Avail yourself of the healing tools, for you and yes, for your w.
Yes, we had a connection and in fact, I felt we had it up until the time she dropped the B. That said, during counseling, I look back at the last 2 to 3 years and I see where we have grown apart but not to the point of no return. Yes, I deeply love my wife. Otherwise, I would not be committed to heal and move past this. THis ^^is a great piece of news. Seriously.
Yes, and all this makes sense and it is greatly appreciated!
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
My plan? 1. Talked to my attorney already and i know my options. Adultery in my state is a crime and also bars her from alimony.
Just curious how one goes about documenting this in such a way that it can't be denied?
As for the kids - tread very very carefully. When my ex had an affair, the kids were home with me when I found the evidence, and I could not hide my shock from them. We reconciled - quite successfully - and were happy together for a few more years before my H went down the rabbit hole the final time. But my kids are all now in their 20's and I am only now seeing how much trepidation they had during those "good" years of our reconciliation - apparently they were always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
So I'd say, say as LITTLE as possible to your kids unless it's CLEAR that you will be divorcing and there is no reconciliation possible. Then it may be appropriate to let older teens know you weren't the party responsible for the divorce, but no more.
Also - taking a compassionate view of your wife - sounds like this trainer may be a real Lothario. Some guys abuse the intimacy of that position and prey on women to get them into the sack. She very well may be devastated when she learns that she is not "special" but just one of many.
For what it's worth, I DID save my marriage. And my wife THANKED me for fighting for her. Absolutely no "retribution" involved, and I hope you don't get that sense from my post or from reading my backstory.
Your choice. As I said, talk to your attorney and your DB coach. Your marriage needs a hero right now, and unfortunately in her current state, that is NOT going to be your wife.
Much to say but my first concern and question is WHY are you telling your children? [color:#000066][/b] I dont unless she leaves the house. They will need to understand what has happened but will not go with the A. They dont need to know that. They love their mom and don't want them hurt and I do not want my W hurt because of it either.
Please read the DR book again, pps 195 on...and "impediments to saving the marriage" which I think is around pp.151 and on. [/color] Thank you!
ALSO, here's a little info about your adultery claim--if your specialist attorney says she won't get alimony, I'll defer to that. But it's not a guarantee as I read it AND for sure, custody is not automatically awarded to you. [color:#000066][b] On solid ground. It is an automatic bar in SC. My attorney is a family court attorney and one of the best. He is also a good friend who i trust. He works that much harder for me and he also knows that I want to save this marriage. He is on board and agrees. LEGAL CITATION Generally, a South Carolina family law attorney or judge in family court does not consider adultery as a primary factor in addressing custody issues. In South Carolina, adultery and custody case of Davenport v. Davenport, the mother of the child committed adultery and the boyfriend spent five nights with the mother while the children were present The Court still awarded the mother custody of the children despite this behavior which could be perceived as risky or immoral. The Court justified their reasoning so as to say that child custody is granted to a party not to reward one party or punish the other.[/color] You are correct and not sure that I would fight for single custody. Again, my kids love mom. She has just checked out temp. She will come back soon.
This was recently upheld in 2011 when the Court of Appeals reversed a decision to give a father primary custody and instead gave it back to the mother that had an affair. See Moeller v. Moeller, 394 S.C. 365, 714 S.E. 2d 898 (Ct. App. 2011). The Courts seem to be of the opinion that moral choices are only relevant in in caes where it affects the welfare of the child. Stroman v. Williams, 291 S.C. 376, 353 S.E.2d 704 (Ct. App. 1987).
So make sure you understand all the risks you face, not just the hoped for result. ALso, I thought you wanted to save the marriage.
This "plan" is more akin to the Normandy Invasion with her total capitulation in mind, rather than a restored marriage.
Again, I'd refer you to the DR book...you want solutions or retribution? [color:#000066] Solutions
And are you assuming she'll want to STAY in the marriage? [/b] No, i am not.
B/C if it were me, and it's not, I realize, I might feel that---
I already justified the affair in my head/heart &...it's your fault. So now you are going to corner ME w/these threats? Okay, then let's go to war. [/color] [b] No, not threats. I will not support the A. If that is an issue with you, i am sorry. We will agree to disagree.
I mean, you either "neglected me" or "Deserted me" or did some other UN husbandly thing that made me feel unloved, etc etc. (I'm not saying it's true, I'm saying I doubt that SHE believes she had no reason for the affair). [color:#000066] I am sorry again, I do not see any good reason for an A. She was trying to justify it from the start by blaming me. Not saying that I am not a part of it. I am. It takes to BUT there is no...NO justification for an A. If you are reading that in into DB, you are mistaken.
And if you read the DR book, she has a point. YOU SAID this is out of character for her. So she's not a slutty immoral woman. [/color] Correct, she is not or was not.
Instead of immediately pointing solely at MLC, try on the possibility that you played a role in it and that - you can show her YOUR changes...which, btw, I have not heard much about...[/b] I will post those in another reply. She has noted my changes and said that I have been doing all the right things
Originally Posted By: EngineThatCould
Left out an important part of that plan and that is the discussion with my W about A and OM. I am struggling with how best to start that discussion and what I need to include. I know I need to use my brain and not the emotional side of me. [b] I also need to talk with my kids and let them know that this is not there fault, that Mom is not a bad person, but she has made some bad decisions.
FWIW, (though I suspect Starsky I will disagree on this), I firmly oppose this ^^choice of yours.
I see no point in it but to assign blame & involve the children in a painful ordeal they have no need of. Plus, it makes it more likely your w will defend her choices, not re-examine them and regret them, as you wish she would.
If you read the Div Remedy book MORE carefully, pay attention specifically to p.199 et al.
My plan? 1. Talked to my attorney already and i know my options. Adultery in my state is a crime and also bars her from alimony.
Just curious how one goes about documenting this in such a way that it can't be denied?
As for the kids - tread very very carefully. When my ex had an affair, the kids were home with me when I found the evidence, and I could not hide my shock from them. We reconciled - quite successfully - and were happy together for a few more years before my H went down the rabbit hole the final time. But my kids are all now in their 20's and I am only now seeing how much trepidation they had during those "good" years of our reconciliation - apparently they were always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
So I'd say, say as LITTLE as possible to your kids unless it's CLEAR that you will be divorcing and there is no reconciliation possible. Then it may be appropriate to let older teens know you weren't the party responsible for the divorce, but no more.
Also - taking a compassionate view of your wife - sounds like this trainer may be a real Lothario. Some guys abuse the intimacy of that position and prey on women to get them into the sack. She very well may be devastated when she learns that she is not "special" but just one of many.
Yes he is but she lead him down the road. She started talking to him about "us" and he took advantage. My PI has him with two other women at the same hotel the day before and the day after my W three weeks running. She has fallen for him and will be heart broken when / if she learns this. I will not be the one to tell her that.
For what it's worth, I DID save my marriage. And my wife THANKED me for fighting for her. Absolutely no "retribution" involved, and I hope you don't get that sense from my post or from reading my backstory.
Your choice. As I said, talk to your attorney and your DB coach. Your marriage needs a hero right now, and unfortunately in her current state, that is NOT going to be your wife.
That leaves you.
You can do this.
Starsky
Starsky, I agree and thank you for the tips. I also appreciate everyone comments. This is helping a lot.
For what it's worth, I DID save my marriage. And my wife THANKED me for fighting for her. Absolutely no "retribution" involved, and I hope you don't get that sense from my post or from reading my backstory.
Your choice. As I said, talk to your attorney and your DB coach. Your marriage needs a hero right now, and unfortunately in her current state, that is NOT going to be your wife.
That leaves you.
You can do this.
Starsky
Starsky, I agree and thank you for the tips. I also appreciate everyone comments. This is helping a lot.
You're welcome, and I wish I could talk to you offline but the TOS here don't encourage it. There are DB groups on the main social media sites where many of us hash this stuff out. I really grow weary of defending what WORKED for me (and so many others), when "DO WHAT WORKS" is supposed to be the overarching DB philosophy.
I do think that men respond to other strong male voices, and some women will never understand that. It's a basic "Mars and "Venus" thing.
