Gonna be different now, (butterfly in hurricane).

[25yearsmlc]

And oh, I don't begrudge the child support,


YES - YOU - DO !

You whined that it would last until he's 18 ('"not so temporary, eh??")

OR Longer, for his special medical needs -- which you then mocked.

I don't have amnesia. I think you might.

Maybe it's not "cognitive dissonance."

Maybe you just lie to yourself & others so much, that you come to believe the lies.

I really didn't want to say that, but it seems as if it needs saying.



I begrudge the fact that the amount is so big, that even if W wanted to spend all the money in a month she physically couldn't. It is not materially possible to spend it all for a toddler. It represents the equivalent of 3000 diapers, 1600 meals, 200 lbs of clothes, one roomfull of toys and 50 child medical appointments. Every month.


It's rare to meet a man who thinks he does NOT pay too much. But most men realize that children are not merely the total of the items you list above.

and God forbid you add in, or even imagine another reason for the costs...you add up the costs of a toddler in diapers and food/clotes and a few toys.
This is what "little Bruce =" to you. A sum of items...

All the tangibles YOU think come with having a son...bummer that he's also a son with medical needs beyond the norm.

Let's be clear.

While you can live in a studio apartment or even a one bedroom, your w cannot.

You're so mad she lives with her parents...but then, when she moves out, (her gaining freedom will infuriate you more I'm sure.) But HER costs will increase.

Getting her own place with your son will have to be big enough for her son AND her AND be near a good school

NOT downtown (so there will be transportation costs) and she'll need to live in an area with low crime and with some grassy play areas or a park nearby. Her utility costs will all be higher too.

Depending on how well your son does medically, she may also need to take him to the doctors often, (time off work or school) OR live near a medical facility.

ALL Those^^ things cost more.

Never mind that she'll need a sitter every time she wants to do an errand, or when she is sick (B/c I doubt she'll be calling you) And never mind how hard this is to do while in school. I would HOPE your inlaws will watch him til she finishes...but who knows?

Since I finished law school after having a baby, but with only one semester left, I know how hard it is to study with a baby around. Oh, but I had a husband who liked our son and was good with him. He helped. When he could not, my mom helped, thank God.

I cannot imagine a 4 year program and a baby/toddler. God help her.

You said YOU were the one who wanted to have children. Did it never occur to you that they cost money?

Oh, and he has some medical conditions too, conditions you know so little about that you cannot discuss them here. Well, You can pooh pooh them, of course. Which you have.

You can complain, before it ever happens IF it ever happens, about him benefitting at all from any "extra" money she spends ON HIM..

(THINK...would you rather she spend child support money on herself or OMs in her life??)

He only "needs" diapers, food, clothes and MAYBE some toys...nothing more....to live.

If your son is good at a musical instrument, or has a talent that costs money to nurture, it's called a blessing, not a burden.

BUT of course all this assumes it does NOT go to his medical needs AND OR the complicated items and restrictions his diet and lifestyle will cost. Has any of that occurred to you, or just the costs TO YOU?

Get some empathy skills. I don't get you at all.

The more I hear you talk about little Bruce, i.e., the cost of supporting him, the "effort" you put into caring for him a few hours a week, how hard/painful all this is on YOU

and how SHE "is still angry and bitter" at you b/c she won't see you in person...which stuns you,

the more I think maybe Bruce is better off with her mostly. Your discussion about how he is your buddy sure lost its' effect when you bemoan the unfair cost.

I do not believe she is "very emotionally unbalanced" to be angry at you now, 99% of spouses are mad after a court hearing, as we told you...and no, I don't believe she must be brainwashed by her bitter hateful parents. I think they're furious at you too.

and like we said, it's far too soon to expect anything but anger and pain from her (and her parents, who have had their lives turned upside down thanks to the failure of your marriage. You are enraged at them and even now you want to blame THEM...)

B,
did it ever occur to you, that they may Not appreciate having their retirement years spent raising their grandson, and helping their d finish college,

which I think she began long ago - when she met you???

You once said SHE BELIEVES you care too much about money & things, and not enough about family. You scoffed at the mere notion. But man,

Read YOUR own words.

The vast bulk of your complaints, and there are a lot of them!!, are about how much HE/SHE costs you...and for how long...and how UNFAIR all this is, to YOU. AND here's a newsflash. Where are all the complaints about not enough time with your son? I think I saw one...maybe...



I'm asked to pay unrealistic amounts, that's all I'm saying.

Oh Bruce, You are saying so much more than that^^^.

You cannot hear me. That is clear. I don't know what to suggest to you now other than having a change of heart that is bigger than seems possible.

I'd urge you to attend therapy in a healthy divorce group that meets often, and or to go to a 2-4 day workshop for personal growth. It's more efficient than weekly sessions, and you need to make a MAJOR paradigm shift.

(Check out Essential Experience, -aka "EE", which is excellent, or "Life Spring", which I've heard good things about, or maybe Imago. They all have websites for upcoming sessions and events.

"EE" is among the finest, but it's in Philadelphia. Then again, I just did it again, and flew in from the west coast to do it). If you go to one, LISTEN to them.

THey provide a safe place for growth, so don't resist anything that makes you uncomfortable. Usually that is something you need to work on...

But One hour a week with a therapist, hasn't done it for you. And you are running out of time---because

We don't know you except for what YOU post here. But If you come off to US this way, then imagine how you'll be seen in court...

[theUF]

Metaphorically speaking, you're in really rough air Bruce and you sir are grasping onto your risers hoping it will sort it self out. Comforting? Sure, but also immensly counterproductive. Man up, let go of your risers and control the toggles, go through the motions or the reality stick will smack YOU across the face.

You take no responsibilty. Stop blaming your W, stop blaming your "ill-tounged" in-laws and stop blaming your S.

Oh, I'm an idiot,
I've blown it, the only support I had in this tough times.
Everything I do in life seems to fail

And, enough with the self pity martyrdom. Just another way of saying "oh well I guess I just can't succeed. No point in putting more effort into it"
Just like you said "oh well" about your S not taking a nap. Instead of shrugging you shoulders, why not ask your W for advice?

You seem to think that others ill behaviour justifies YOUR ill behaviour, it does NOT. Stop wasting energy on that d**ned scoreboard, and take responsibility of your own behaviour. Let others worry about theirs.

Think about what a MAN would do.
Would a MAN sob about his in laws talking with a tone?
Sob about providing for his S?
Sob about everything in life working against him?

No one has promised you days without pain, or a life without hard times. You are the one who decide wether you give up or accept the fact. If you accept that fact you can do something about it. At least then you have a good chance of getting your life back on track. If you curl up and sob, nothing good will come of it.

Everyone is being rough b/c you refuse to see the facts of life, not b/c they want you any harm.

[MrBond]

"Everything I do in life seems to fail, oh my, I'm in such a bad crisis right now. I have cognitive dissonance (say things the opposite of what I feel), and anger that I can't seem to be able to control.
I publicly apologize for the "bah bah" comment, I'm just not gifted for playing with babies. Sorry again for such insensitivity."

Unbelievable how mocking you are. Everyone (especially 25years) has been posting to you to help and instead you mock them. I think you are on here just to make fun of people. I've noticed that your tone and language and even 'accent' has changed since your first post. Slipping up keeping it consistent.

[Big Bruce]

Hello everyone,
Thank you, I recognize that I have received some great posts in here.
I also see that after this court hearing, too much welled up inside and I came on these boards venting, complaining and looking for others to whine with me. Which was wrong, I said things I had no business saying.

Thanks to you all, I have a little more perspective now though. Of course W will have anger, if not more than I, inside her after the court thing. After all, she has to pay her L bill too, and more time with S has been given to me than she wished, so she has this sense of "having lost" the case. I hope she'll get used to the idea though.
As for me, paying is not a "fine", (although it's some sort of fine for failing the marriage), but it's a necessity for W and S. I have to learn to let go of my hard feelings about it, I am not the only H on earth who has to pay after all.

TheUF had a genius moment when he said that the ill behaviour of others didn't justify mine. Instead of a tit for a tat, I have to respond to evil with good.

Yes, a MAN wouldn't mind the in-laws being bitchy at him, or complain about the payments or how life is so unfair to him. I gotta have a little bit more dignity and self-respect here.

I'll look up EE and LifeSpring, although I already booked sessions with the best C (apparently) in town.

One question for those who have more experience : I try to sound relaxed and friendly on my emails to W. Will come across as fake so shortly after court? And because of the court trauma, how long do you think it'll take before W kind of takes it in and start responding normally or nicely again?

Thanks for sharing your experience ot thoughts on a court hearing on spouses, and how to react to and handle it.

Bien cordialement,
B.

[LuckyLuke]

Just be clean in your communication with W, nothing long or complicated. Time heals many wounds.

Luke

[movingon-1968]

Bruce,

Some of the below might sound heavy handed. Like others here, I'm wondering whether it's a cultural issue, a language barrier, or even if your sitch is for real. But, much of what you say you want, and what you actually say DO NOT mesh together.

TheUF had a genius moment when he said that the ill behaviour of others didn't justify mine. Instead of a tit for a tat, I have to respond to evil with good.

There is no evil involved here - just the ignorance on your part to recognize the situation for what it is. Just because you disagree with what is happening in your life does not mean an evil force is behind it...

Yes, a MAN wouldn't mind the in-laws being bitchy at him, or complain about the payments or how life is so unfair to him. I gotta have a little bit more dignity and self-respect here.

Yeah... you might try some humility as well. From what I can see the in-laws have reasons in their minds why they should be bitchy at you. If you want their respect, take away those reasons. Respect is EARNED, not idly given away.

Most every poster to your thread has talked of this very same thing, and in every response you seem to have mocked or ignored their advice. This has certainly not gotten you much in the way of respect or sympathy.

A MAN would support his son regardless of the cost; a MAN should be big enough to admit his mistakes without trying to deflect and blame others; a MAN would take an interest in learning how to care for his son. This list could go on for hours, but, in short, a MAN would do the things YOU HAVE NOT! Conversely, a MAN would NOT do what you have in this thread.

One question for those who have more experience : I try to sound relaxed and friendly on my emails to W. Will come across as fake so shortly after court? And because of the court trauma, how long do you think it'll take before W kind of takes it in and start responding normally or nicely again?

Trauma?! Again, pulling the victim/martyr card. You should've been responding nicely and normally, aka like a decent human being, from the beginning. It's never to late to start being a decent person. It's always too soon to start acting like a d**che when you're seeking positive results.

[25yearsmlc]

YOU WROTE:

I'll look up EE and LifeSpring, although I already booked sessions with the best C (apparently) in town.

First, who said you can't do both?
You're still trying to do the minimal amount of "work" to get your victory.

Second, You are not going to change enough or fast enough, even with the "best c in town" with hourly sessions weekly, or bi-weekly.

I don't believe You want to change YOU. You want the world/people around you to change for you.

The EE workshop I mentioned, (& LifeSpring) are "experiential" so there are exercises in it (as opposed to lectures), which are designed to reveal things to you about yourself. It's actual self discovery.

Carl Rogers, Carl Jung, Virginia Satir and other reknown psychoanalysts and therapists and philosophers helped create this in depth self discovery workshop, which also provides tools to change yourself.

You cannot edit or rehearse your answer. That is one of their biggest values, that and being in a safe environment. See EE's website and stop scoffing.

If you took what I said half as seriously as I meant it, you'd know that hourly sessions once a week will NOT shift your worldview or your paradigm OR teach you new behaviors, nearly enough and not fast enough for you to demonstrably change before your next court date or for your family. You need to learn new behaviors and you need tools for that. Period.

Instead, You will want to use your time in a therapist's office to talk about your pain and to ask for "fast track tactics" to get your wife back, or to pay less in support, or to look better in court, or something other than changing how you treat people in your life, and how you see yourself. Don't forget how you wanted things "back to normal by Christmas". You thought WE were ridiculous to say it would take more time than that.

IF you could see the truth, you'd realize the "work of life" is what we do every day, trying to be better people, backsliding but picking ourselves up again and dusting ourselves off, to begin anew each day,

= connecting at deeper levels with others, touching lives and being touched back...SOMETIMES not getting anything back, but the simple & soothing knowledge that we did something for another person that was good.

And being fine with that^^...


One question for those who have more experience : I try to sound relaxed and friendly on my emails to W.

You've been advised by people here, and me, to minimize/eliminate your contact with her until if and when SHE reaches out to you.

What is there to discuss? Pick up times? You were just suing each other. Use a third party as much as possible or discuss ONLY the factual matters at hand. If you must (and I'm pretty sure you'll do it anyhow) tell her only what he did that is relevant to HER life or time with him, eg., what he ate, nap time, etc.

It's normal to be annoyed when a child is returned tired (usally means "cranky") or dirty. Don't expect a grand welcome when you bring him home in a bad mood or without all his needs met.

Let HER make a comment or move for more information than that...you make it seem like a game you are playing with people's lives.

Will come across as fake so shortly after court?

YES it'll come across as fake, because it is fake. You are not relaxed or friendly to her. So ask yourself, if you can, how SHE will feel if you act in a way that no one else would trust is real.

"Friendly relaxed behavior" from you, around her now, would make her feel the way a fly feels when a spider approaches it smiling...& is about to pounce.


And because of the court trauma, how long do you think it'll take before W kind of takes it in and start responding normally or nicely again?

are you being serious with this^^ question?

There are so many things wrong and weird about this question, it's hard to know what to say. You're truly out of touch with what has happened to her.

1) "BECAUSE of the court trauma" (nothing you did) AND

you think She is 2) Not acting normal or nice towards YOU?

Read your posts!

You think "after she takes it in" Then she'll act "Normally & nicely again"? And You want to know how long it'll take...

Here is my answer.

She'll be loving, and "normal" and act "nicely" towards you WHEN:

YOU CHANGE the following:

how you treat her & other people,

and your outlook on life, and

...When you stop being negative or critical about her, her family, her country, the weather there, how uncultured they are, how bad the food is, how far away your family is,

& when you stop complaining about the costs of your son/her,

or how bad your life is now/then,

how nasty HER family is, how "crazy" or "abnormal"or "bitter/angry" SHE is,

how boring babies/ toddlers are/will be,

how weird/obsessive a mother SHE was/is,

how much work YOU have to do, how little work SHE has to do,

how unfair things are to YOU, and only you...

In short, when YOU start being the man she always deserved.

Which really may well mean, never. But that's all up to you.

[Grateful]

Please tell me this is just a post to help people see how bad things can really get.

[lostinscared]

Bruce, unfortunately, I still see blaming. I sent this to my H today and I thought about your situation and your inability to really understand your W's actions. I know that you continue to feel that your "wrongs" don't justify her leaving. Again, I need to point out to you that she felt trauma. You think you feel trauma now... and I actually think you do. But what you are failing to understand is that she felt it for so long. It got to a point for her that she HAD to leave to save her mental wellbeing.

This is from Marriage Missions International:

"WHY SOME SPOUSES GIVE UP

The following story is a parable meant to be used as an imaging tool. It’s not meant to give a spouse, who is ready to give up on a marriage, an excuse to do so. It can however, give the abandoned spouse a better understanding as to why their spouse may have decided to leave their marriage when they did.

More importantly however, this parable is meant to be used as a “wake-up call” to those spouses who are asleep to the fact that they’ve been neglecting their family. And if they don’t come to that realization and do something to drastically reverse their neglectful behavior immediately —they may wake up one morning to find themselves alone without a family to care for and spend time with.

Read the following edited story with an open mind and heart as to what the author Andy Stanley is trying to tell those who think their family should keep understanding why they spend so much time away from them. Pastor Stanley writes:

Use your imagination for just a moment. Imagine that your best friend walks up to you in your front yard one Saturday and asks you to do him a favor. You have some free time, and so you agree to do it. He walks over to his car, opens the trunk, and produces a thirty-pound rock.

Now here’s where you’re really going to have to use your imagination: At this point he hands you the rock and says, “I really need you to stand here with this rock until I return.” He explains why it’s important that you stand in that one spot with the rock and promises to return shortly to retrieve it. It’s a strange request, and his explanation doesn’t make a lot of sense, but this is someone you trust, so you agree. At this point he thanks you with extreme gratitude and then gets into his car and drives away.

An hour goes by. And what started out as a reasonable favor is beginning to get a little hard. But after all, this is your best friend, so you resign yourself to continue on and stand there. Another hour goes by and your arms are starting to ache. Everything in you wants to sit down, but you made a promise. Then suddenly, to your relief, your friend pulls in the driveway, jumps out of the car, and runs in your direction. You’re so relieved. If you weren’t holding the rock, you’d hug him.

But your joy is quickly crushed. Instead of relieving you of your burden he says, “I told you I was coming right back. But I need to run one more quick errand. If you’ll keep holding the rock, I’ll make it up to you when I return.” Once again, you trust that what you’re told is true. If your friend needs to run one more errand before relieving you that is just the way it is. So you agree. As he turns to go you can’t help but yell out, “Please hurry.” Off your friend goes and there you stand.

Another hour goes by. The sun begins to set. Your muscles are aching to be able to drop the rock. But you refuse to give in. You’re committed to holding up your part of what you promised. Besides, your friend said he’d make it up to you. You aren’t sure what that means, but it must be something good. Thirty minutes later a car pulls up in the driveway. Someone you don’t know is driving. This person walks over and informs you that your friend has been delayed. “Would you mind holding the rock for just a little while longer?” he asks.

You experience a mixture of pain and anger. You manage to mutter, “Just tell him to hurry.”

Away the person goes and there you stand. It’s dark now. The streets are empty. The neighbors are at their windows watching you stand there, wondering why you’d put up with being treated like that by a “friend.”

Another hour goes by. You begin to lose your grip. Your arms begin to fall. You tell yourself to hold on, but your body just won’t respond. Down goes the rock. And just as it hits the pavement and breaks into a hundred pieces, your friend pulls up in the driveway. He jumps out of the car, runs over with a look of panic on his face, and says, “What happened? Did it slip? Did somebody knock it out of your hands? Did you change your mind?” And as he looks for an explanation as to why you suddenly dropped the rock, you know that it was a long time coming.

Now let me explain what happened in terms that will help us later on. Your mental willingness was overcome by your physical exhaustion. You wanted to do what you were asked to do, but after awhile you just couldn’t do it anymore. Add to that the frustration of being misled about how long you’d have to stand there. But even if the aggravation is put aside, at some point you just weren’t going to be able to keep holding on. No amount of love, dedication, commitment, or selflessness was going to be able to make up for the fact that your arms were worn out.

Now, let’s add another element to that story: You’re about to pass out from exhaustion. And finally a car pulls up in the driveway. You’re so angry and in so much pain you know you’ll have to choose your words carefully. Sure enough, it’s your friend. He walks over slowly with one hand behind his back. He forces a smile and says, “I brought you something.”

Suddenly he brings out from behind his back a bouquet of flowers. At that point you don’t just drop the rock; you find within yourself just enough strength to throw it at him! As he ducks, he exclaims, “What was that all about? I bought you flowers, didn’t I?”

Now, I probably don’t need to apply my little parable. The meaning is pretty obvious. So at the risk of insulting your intelligence, let me be painfully specific:

• When we ask our husbands and wives to carry their load as well as ours, it’s like handing them a rock.

• When we’re absent at critical junctures in family life, they’re left holding the rock.

• When we find ourselves pointing to the future to somehow make up for the past and the present, they’re holding the rock.

• When we assure our families that things are going to change and they don’t, they’re holding the rock.

The interesting thing is that they always accept it. And why not? They love us. They trust us. Besides, we always reassure them that they’ll only have to hold it for a short time.

Everybody is willing to be “understanding” when a loved one needs to neglect the family as a top priority for a reasonable period of time. And in real life, taking time away from the family because of job responsibilities is sometimes unavoidable. But when they’re left to carry a load of neglect they were never created to carry in the first place—it’s just a matter of time before things will begin to unravel.

There’s a point at which that mental willingness isn’t enough to hang on. With a literal rock, mental willingness is eventually overcome by physical exhaustion. With an imaginary rock, mental willingness is eventually overtaken by emotional exhaustion. And when that happens, the rocks come tumbling down.

There’s always a final straw: a comment, a phone call, a tired explanation, a no-show, a forgotten birthday, or a missed game. Some little thing that pushes those we love past their ability to hold on. And to the uniformed, unsuspecting spouse —to the husband or wife who has lived with the fantasy that everything is just fine-it seems like a huge overreaction. They think: ”All I said was.” ”All I did was.”

But it wasn’t the moment. It wasn’t the phone call. It wasn’t the fact that the big hand on the clock was on the six instead of the twelve. It was weeks, months, or possibly years of waiting for things to change. The rock finally slipped out of their calloused hands.

When the rock drops, you’ll do everything in your power to pick it up and piece it back together. You’ll find the time to devote to fixing the problem. But in my experience, when the rock drops, there is always some permanent damage. Most rocks can’t be put back together again.

Do you know what your family wants from you more than anything else? They want to feel accepted. In practical terms, they want to feel like they are your priority.

“But they are my priority,” you might argue. That may be true. They may be your priority in your heart, but that’s not the point. They want to feel like your priority. It’s not enough for them to be your priority. They must feel like it.

I’ll never forget discussing this point with a very busy corporate vice president. He kept assuring me of how much he loved his wife and kids. Finally I interrupted him and said, “The problem is, you love your family in your heart, but you don’t love them in your schedule. They can’t see your heart —they only know your schedule.”

Keep in mind that the chief indicator to your family of where you place your loyalty is time. It’s what you put on our calendar. Where you spend your time is an indication of where your loyalties lie. In effect, you pledge your allegiance to the person or thing that receives your time.

Are there time-consuming bridges you need to burn? Are there accounts at work you need to hand off? Are there some out-of-town meetings that need to be handled on the phone? Is there an offer you need to refuse? A promotion you need to give back? Once you’ve made up your mind to make your family more of a priority, it will become all too clear what stands in the way of your being able to focus on your commitment to re-prioritize.

So what is your non-negotiable? What does it look like? Does it mean leaving the office everyday at 5:30, regardless? Does it mean never missing one of your children’s performances or ball games? What does the commitment look like in your world?

Again promising to do “better” won’t get it. You’ve already done that. That terminology doesn’t even register with your family. They’ve heard that before."

[movingon-1968]

^^^Important lessons in the above...