Living, Getting the Paperwork Started (20 months)

[movingon-1968]

ad,

I can sympathize with your sitch - I've tried to 'fix' the R with my W and kids several times. The one thing I found out, and the hard way, is that it's not possible. They have to be willing to do the work necessary to repair the rift themselves.

Sure, I was able to smooth a few wrinkles, but, my W and kids had to do the grunt work, when they were ready, while I watched from the sidelines (with encouragement, of course).

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but, your S slapping the olive branch your H is extending is most likely his way of punishing your H for the way he's acted. D23 did this many times to my W. For a while, D23 stated she didn't want her mother at the hospital when she went into labor because of how she had been acting.

At some point my W began to understand how her actions affected the whole family and her R with all of us - it wasn't just about her and I. But, nothing I said or did was able to make her understand that. At some point, your H will have to come to that understanding as well if he wants to have a R with his son.

From my experience, all you can really do is provide the options and make him choose. Others may have better advice, YMMV...

[adinva]

Thanks guys. I'm trying to better at not FIXING so much, but I'm remedial. I could justify this trip because it wasn't my idea it was h's, I can see that he is trying - I'm helping in a not very big way, not fixing. Fixing would be if I cook up the trip and sell them ALL on it.

Also, H is a fully grown adult and should be managing his own relationships, but S15 is still a kid and he's learning. I'm not fixing when I make him go to school or brush his teeth. So why is modeling family behavior, at least till we're over the hump, FIXING? Should S15 not be helped along a little bit rather than letting him flounder around with the relationship skills of a 15yo boy? Look where it got his dad.

Honestly I could argue both sides of this question equally. I don't think going or not going is inherently bad. Plus, the olive branch may have been extended to me, too. Am I ready to slap it away? (Yes more than ready, but what if it's a signal that H's heart is changing?)

So. I blew off IC today. I screwed up bigtime and had that coffee date with my SIL, and got busy with work at Starbucks until I had a 10 minute window left before I had to leave to go to IC. I raced over with coffee thinking that I'd stay 10 minutes, be 10 minutes late for IC, and all would be fine. Whatever 15 minutes, 20 minutes. And then IC didn't call so I allowed myself to question whether it was next week after all and I kept talking to SIL. IC was nice enough to reschedule for next Tuesday but I could tell from her not-to-happy voice that I've missed and/or been late and rescheduled for free just about enough.

But I couldn't give up this opportunity, it turned out very well.

This was the coffee we talked about via FB before Christmas and it turned into two hours, two kleenexes, talking over empty coffee cups. It was a really nice conversation not all about me and my relationship problems but her life and knee surgery and kid issues and my life and kid issues and of course relationship with her H's kid brother.

I learned a lot more about my husband original family and how very abusive his father was to the older boys especially this one (my h was a baby then) and a little bit more about his mother. This brother-in-law was about 15, about my sons age, when the violent blowout happened in his family that resulted in divorce (FIL threw MIL out through a window), and he and SIL see events from a much different perspective than I've ever seen from the younger siblings and a much more complex dynamic between my mother-in-law and her husband. Although the other kids put her on a pedestal, idealized her and protected and stood by her all this time and demonize their abusive alcoholic father, only this oldest brother and his wife come at it from the perspective that their mother allowed that abuse to happen for many years until this one violent episode put it over-the-top.

It in no way makes the abuser any better and it's still terrible what their mom had to put up with but she did put up with it a long time while her children were getting beaten too. She had choices too, which she finally exercised at that point. So SIL and BIL see things differently than the ones who were little kids then.

Of all the four kids this one who is the black sheep now was the only one who really rebelled during his teens and stood up to his father, spoke his mind to his father and years later attempted to break the ice with him and try to have a real conversation. This is the same kind of self respect and standing up for yourself which I am hoping to encourage my 15-year-old son to do at some point.

The other three siblings are sort of emotionally unavailable somewhat remote and superficial in their family relationships - really friendly on the surface, but not much deeper. I always thought they were much more open and affectionate than my family but after going through this year I feel it doesn't go far beneath the surface and things aren't said because it might be awkward. I thought my brother-in-law must have been very courageous to try to go have a beer with his dad as an adult and have a decent chat. The father then told the rest of the family that BIL showed up as an unemployed loser coming to ask for money so that the resulting relationship didn't quite happen but I believe the fact that my brother-in-law reached out and made the attempt made a difference for him.

I think it's a shame that my husband refused to go see his dad this past December when his sister did because the man is ill doesn't have a lot of time left and is expressing regrets. My brother-in-law refused to go see him too but in a way had already said his piece, while my husband has left things unresolved and doesn't see any point in speaking to his father again ever.

My sister in law asked me if I had seen all my husband's Facebook posts and she said he sounds miserable. I was surprised to hear he even posts on Facebook because he refused to connect with me when he set up a Facebook account years ago, but I am not surprised to hear he sounds miserable. My sister-in-law says he mostly posts about food and the occasional adolescent male humor but also seems to them to be very lonely and unhappy.

My sister in law had a very interesting perspective on things which was helpful to me. One was having had two boys already grown up and having had a husband who was 15 when his dad left she could tell me that 15-year-old boys individuating from their dads can act like my son acts even in unbroken homes. She said it's quite common after years of behaving like this for a boy to come around again in his early 20s and become closer with his dad. So I feel like my anxiety that our situation has permanently destroyed their relationship may be unnecessarily great. Maybe even a little self-serving if it makes me and the boys look like the victim and my husband the bad guy.

My brother in law and sister in law would like to be able to help, and my brother-in-law has been planning to try to talk to my husband and tell him he's making bad choices. I told them that was nice of them and he can say whatever he feels he should, but my opinion is that nobody can say anything to my husband that will change what he has to go through. However I do think it might be comforting for my husband to know from his brother that boys do push their dads away and do come back eventually because this might help my husband to not take my son's behavior as a complete rejection. I am not trying to fix their relationship but more trying to recognize that their relationship isn't necessarily what I think it is and isn't necessarily going to be the way I think it is going to be.

It was also interesting to learn that my brother-in-law does not much like or get along with his mother. That was a big surprise. I only recently figured out how behind the scenes mean she is but he has known that all along. This past year she told him she didn't much like him because he was so much like her husband. No one knows what similarity she saw there, but even so that was a very hurtful thing for him to hear. They've also noticed how much she plays favorites and has specific requirements to gain her approval. Since they had two nonathletic boys that was quite clear.

She pointed out to me how hard it must have been for the kids to grow up with her as their mother when only this oldest one really rebelled or became a different kind of individual.

She also told me her husband might be willing to talk with my son about getting involved with drugs since he had plenty of experience with that as a teen himself.

We only live about 10 minutes apart from this family but the differences (socioeconomic, personality, etc) seemed to create more distance than that and it's a shame because I always found them to be among the sweetest and most genuine people in the family. I'm hoping that we might be able to do more things with them so my kids can get some of the benefits of having cousins and extended family that we spend time with.

So I'm glad I reached out and I cried a little and she cried a little and no one spontaneously combusted which was nice. She said a a few times how can I help and my standard answer is I'm doing fine, but it is so meaningful to me to even be asked that question. I tried to convey that to her. It still makes me cry because I'm uncomfortable with the idea of needing help or wanting help and unaccustomed to the possibility that anyone might even be interested in helping really.

[keep_going]

Hi Ad,

I have been following your discussion / conversations here and with 25 about your teenage kids - the age-related struggles, the challenges of the family situation, how to help them, their R with their dad... There are really some tough challenges to what you guys have to deal with and I can't really say much because I have toddlers and a baby. Yet, I can still admire your dedication and focus in trying to understand and deal with some tough issues.

Regarding the R of your son with his dad like you said, a good argument could be made for both trying to be involved and trying to model some good family behaviors for the kids or to stay out of that dynamic and let your son and your H forge their own R based on the new family circumstances.

Perhaps the answer in some scenarios might be one, and in another situation, the complete opposite. Yet you are someone who is always trying to look inward and find honesty in your intentions and that is all you can ask for when deciding what stance to take.

Our children didn't come with a parenting manual in-hand and we will mess up many times, regardless of our best intentions. I am trying to be ok with that.

The trip offer seems like a tricky issue because you have to consider not only the benefits/drawbacks it can cause for your kids, but also for you. Where are you emotionally with it, what is best for you and what are you comfortable with. Fortunately, you don't have to decide today and if you are patient and just let it be, the answer will become apparent to you naturally. (Easier said than done, though.)


Ad, I am really glad to hear you had a good get-together with your SIL. I have had a couple of exchanges like that with my own SILs and I am so grateful to be able to continue having a R with them regardless of my M status because we truly love each other.

Something you said resonated with me. As you know, I identify greatly with your personality, way of thinking and some of the personal challenges you have struggled with:

"It still makes me cry because I'm uncomfortable with the idea of needing help or wanting help and unaccustomed to the possibility that anyone might even be interested in helping really."

This ^^^^^ I totally relate to. I have been trying to let go, be more humble and be ok with the idea of needing help and more importantly, being willing to accept it - be it with something small or big. It's not been easy for me, but I do feel much relief when I am able to reach out and let others help or even just be there for me. I just want it to become natural for me.


Ad, hang in there - all these issues will sort themselves out with time. Remember to take care of yourself as well.

I send you a big hug and my support.
((((((Ad)))))))

[BklynMom]

Fwiw I think you are not out of bounds talking to your son about taking a family trip. To me you are not fixing only talking openly with your kid about family issues and as you said you will listen to him an not force him to go.

What a great chat with Sil I know how much a conversation like that means. Makes you feel not so crazy. I like the idea of bil talking to s15 about drugs. Is that something you should run by your h first?

You are an inspiration

[adinva]

Thanks for all the love and support! It is so much easier for me to give and receive it in an anonymous forum, in writing, than in person. I don't know what I would have done without this site - it keeps me on the track I think I should be on.

I don't know that I would run it by H (BIL talking about drugs) versus mention it to him if we have a conversation going already. I am trying in DB fashion to let H take the lead on all contact, unless it is necessary and about the kids. I think that comes under the heading of not necessary but about the kids, so I'm not coming forward with it. It may not happen anyway. H has had little respect for his brother, who used to get stoned with his friends while babysitting H. H also doesn't respect overweight people, and their whole family is overweight. H also doesn't really feel close because they aren't quite as well off (there have been times BIL has been missing a tooth in front and let it go for a while) and more religious (any day of the week we might have wanted to get together they had this church function or that church function, which now makes sense given how accepted they felt by their family). Anyway, just not a close relationship. But the drugs were a teenage thing and BIL certainly can talk about how much they might seem fun but also the downside.

Since H did not EVER do any kind of a drug, or tobacco, almost never drank at all, always worked out, always ate right, never didn't do his homework, never skipped school, never did anything that wasn't smart by adult standards, it's going to be hard for him to have credibility when he looks down on S15 for the bad choices he's making.

Anyway, IC had suggested we try to find a recovering addict or a substance abuse counselor to talk to S15, and H was on board with that but we didn't identify anyone yet. IF BIL ends up offering, and IF it ends up happening, it could be good for S15.

[Accuray]

That's a tough one because I think H's demonstrated attitude has been that he thinks the drugs and bad behavior are your problem to deal with and not his. He'll report it to you, but he won't deal with it. That would suggest you should just have BIL talk to S15 without discussing with H.

On the other hand, BIL is H's family, and having S15 talk to BIL without informing H is crossing the line from a family perspective.

I would probably notify H that you're going to have BIL talk to S15 about drugs. I say "notify" rather than "discuss", because that's probably all H is looking for. If he wants to object to that, you can decide how to handle it then, but for now I would just assume he won't and plan accordingly.

Accuray

[BklynMom]

I personally think it BIL would be a great person to talk to your son I just think your H will flip out. In your earlier post you wrote that there was a divide between the two brothers and clearly as you have described above they have used different means of coping. It just seems like your BIL could be a big trigger for your H.

At an alanon meeting recently we were talking about how we used to judge people on their outside. How you could tell if a person was messed up if they were unkept or had missing teeth or maybe smelled like alcohol but it turns out the people we really needed to worry about were the ones that looked good & clean.

[adinva]

Bklyn that's really interesting, and I have a bit of that in me. I do tend to assume the good and clean looking ones are good, at least on first impression. I don't spend much time with people who smell like alcohol or have missing teeth, so I'm a little intimidated by that. I'm sure there are good and bad people in both categories. I think in general healthy people try to be aware that people will tend to judge them a certain way if they look and act a certain way, and if they care about how they come across they will align themselves with how they want to be perceived. Hm. Anyway, that's why I try to get my S12 to shower and brush his teeth and change his shirt once a week at least. He's not too concerned but he still has to live in the world with other people. I feel I'm getting off topic.

BIL. My H is perfectly nice to his BIL, and when the family organizes a holiday party they talk, and the rest of the time neither of them seems to go out of his way to see or talk to the other. After the holiday parties where he is perfectly nice, my H would comment about their appearance, but I would never have called that a rift or their not getting along or anything like that. My H acts like he's superior to everyone - it's a regular thing that almost any interaction with someone is followed by a debrief to me about how annoying they are, how they've gotten fat, yadayada. I chalked this up to a disguised self-loathing or lack of self-worth, and felt kind of sorry that H was so negative about so much.

I bristle at the suggestion that this needs H's buy-in, and I don't see it as that big of a deal. It mostly likely - if it came about - would generate the normal eye rolling and monosyllabic replies that I expect these days from these kids who already had two years of D.A.R.E. in school and have heard it all already. But it's not something I would hide from H either. It just would be part of what I fill him in on as it transpires. For example, if we talk this weekend I would mention by the way SIL suggested that BIL might talk to S15 about the consequences of experimenting with drugs, what do you think about that? If he had a problem with it I'm not wedded to the idea. S15 isn't doing anything I didn't do at his age, yet, but I don't want him to get the idea that we don't care or won't do anything about it.

Argh, H. I had forgotten how he put words in my mouth while I was in Florida, and acted like I told him not to overreact and not to do anything about the stuff he found while he was in charge of the boys. Honestly if he walked in the room and had grown a second head I wouldn't have been more surprised by that exchange. So who knows what or how he'll react to this. But my guess is like most things lately he'll shrug and say whatever. No, that would be too many syllables, just a shrug and a grunt.

[labug]

That last bit made me smile.

I think we need to do what we feel is right and they can just twist.

[Tallula]

I don't have much to add to this, as my kids are 3, 2, and 15 weeks gestating...

I do have experience in drugs & alcohol though. Sober 10 years, here. Most of my highschool friends I partied with we're just partying. I don't think having BIL is going to hurt anythIng. And since your H seems to think its your responsibility to handle, handle it how you see fit.

Maybe you'll get a double grunt...