25yearsmlc

[adinva]

I read your responses and got a lot from your additional thoughts about your D15 and my S15. I think your D is going to be fine, because you are very in tune with her and your relationship sounds very open and unencumbered, your whole family appears to understand and not be afraid of getting outside help, and your H seems like he really is trying. His well might be different or not so deep as D15 would like.

The only real issue I saw in all your posts was how the role you're taking in it as a coparent is affecting you.

I'm torn by the constant need to defend the kids to h, and h to the kids. Please Note, they involve me in their complaints and disputes!

Sounds like they could all use more talking to each other. I wonder if you might try, when H is saying stuff about the kids that makes you want to defend them, ask him if he's discussed this with them and would he consider it, and maybe you could facilitate or participate in such a discussion. Similarly when the kids say stuff to you about H that you feel a need to defend H over, what if you suggested that they share that thought with their dad and maybe talk it out?

It sounds hard or impossible, but it would be better than you in the middle trying to fix all their opinions of each other.

Your D15 sounds like a challenging spirited kid. I love kids like that! I think that respecting her right to her own perceptions and being a safe place to discuss them, basically treating her in an adult way, is going to mean a lot to her in the long term.

It's too bad kids seem to have an innate allergy to helpful adults, because my boys really didn't much like counseling. I wonder if your D15 would talk with someone.

I also thought, I wonder what your D15 would say if you explored what she sees as the choices. If she had it to do herself, would she choose being physically there for her family over the financial security of a military career and retirement? Does she see physical presence as the most important way of demonstrating love or does she see and value other ways that her dad shows he loves her?

At our kids' ages I think showing them how adults navigate conflict is really important (ok my IC told me that), more important than hiding conflict from the kids. Conflict is real and it's a part of every single inter-personal relationship. The kids are learning their skills from watching you.

[25yearsmlc]

thanks for the support Adinva.

At EE, I planned to work on the issue of what our role is in families, w/conflicts between our spouses and kids, (regardless of past marital issues really). I planned to struggle with that and how their conflicts affect my marital feelings and my parental feelings.

In the past, parental concerns brought us together, they did not divide us.

But after seeing my mom's condition (vascular dementia) worsening, on my way to the workshop, I put her at the top of my "To Do" list to work on.

I Do think my h is trying hard. At times I feel he misses an obvious chance to "get it" but then I wonder, "is he turning away from the truth or does he really not get this?"

For instance, SOME of what d15 says about men and marriage CLEARLY are derived from and or aimed at h, imo.

But it's lost on h...at times, I wonder if that is good...

2 things left to say for now.

YES I do refer them to each other. H's reaction is "we're the parents and I need your feedback to know if I'm on track".

I usually agree with this^^ reasoning.

OTOH when the kids complain about h, I refer them to him and they get mad.

They'll say "No way. Dad won't listen to ME/US and you have to handle him."

Recently my son asked me "why do you love him?" (That killed me).

First, I answered him rather fully. Then I asked him if he loves his dad. He said "yes, he's my dad, but I don't feel close to him much and if it weren't for you here, the family would not be together."

So I really need to navigate that. BTW, this is NEW to me. S25 did not say things like this before. He supported us going to Retrovaille and wanted us to reconcile.

So I'm not sure how much is him being on his own for 8 years, then living with us for 5 months and being a bull in another bull's ring, and how much is what he is seeing and reacting to. There are testosterone dimensions to some of their interactions.

The other thing you said I totally agree with, is that letting your kids see conflict is FINE, but IF, and only if,

you let them see you work that conflict through...

or at least let them know HOW you did it if you do it in private.
Otherwise all they see is the conflict part.

IF they see you together acting as if, later on, our kids would wonder what the heck happened that you worked it all out.

I think my kids used to assume we had sex in the bedroom, when really we were talking things out, then coming out of the room with our "solution."

Live and learn.

[movingon-1968]

Recently my son asked me "why do you love him?" (That killed me).

First, I answered him rather fully. Then I asked him if he loves his dad. He said "yes, he's my dad, but I don't feel close to him much and if it weren't for you here, the family would not be together."

So I really need to navigate that. BTW, this is NEW to me. S25 did not say things like this before. He supported us going to Retrovaille and wanted us to reconcile.

I got the same speeches from D23 last year when she claimed W was 'going crazy' and that I should just divorce her. That was definitely tough to deal with, no doubt. Actually, D23 & D21 both said things like this.

I don't know if it's any help to you, but, I simply told them that I appreciated their input, but, our M was not really something they should be worrying about. I also encouraged them to keep their relationship with their mother on good terms, regardless of what the outcome of our M was.

I don't know how well it was received since D23 is still angry with her mom about a lot of things from the last two years. She's definitely more angry about things than I am.

[adinva]

I think it's telling that your H wants to discuss the kids between you two instead of taking his issue to them directly, and that your kids rebuff you with "he won't listen." In your shoes, at some point, I would call a family meeting over a plate of brownies or chips and salsa and tell them for exactly 30 minutes we're going to declare a safe zone and get some stuff out. And then prompt them. "I heard so and so say dad won't listen so they don't want to share how they feel with them. H, do you want to listen and how do you think you might show them you want to? Think, body language, not arguing or getting defensive, really hearing where they are and how they feel without getting mad about it." "Kids, are you willing to say what you're feeling without using hurtful or mean words?" "What does love look like to you, what are you expecting and not getting?" "What does work obligation mean to you dad, how do you feel about getting pulled between duty and family? and how do you think family should behave to ease this for you?" "Kids, how do you think you should be easing this challenge for dad?" I don't know, maybe with you facilitating they could do this.

I did facilitate a conversation with my kids and their dad. One was upstairs yelling and slamming doors and we sat down together and I tried to translate to help them make progress. Saying "I hear you, son, saying xyz, is that what you were trying to say?" "I hear your dad getting frustrated and raising his voice, can you hear the message he's saying instead of just objecting to the way he's saying it?" It was kind of like our therapy session except without the therapist. she had actually suggested we do it on a regular basis but it was a little too new-agey for my family dynamic and we've kind of kept it as an as-needed tool.

Also, I believe a big factor in the problems that are happening is the unspeakable trauma your H has been through. That can't be ignored and glossed over.

[25yearsmlc]

I think it's telling that your H wants to discuss the kids between you two instead of taking his issue to them directly, and that your kids rebuff you with "he won't listen."

Some of what h & I discuss are financial matters re how long we'll have adult children living with us, and rules of the house with girlfriends/boyfriends, and I am fine getting together privately to plan and agree first, before we present to the kids our conditions.

I don't believe h is being avoidant about talking with the kids. I believe he sorely wants back into their lives. He just does not know how to do it.

But I need to know why the kids think he won't listen to them.


In your shoes, at some point, I would call a family meeting over a plate of brownies or chips and salsa and tell them for exactly 30 minutes we're going to declare a safe zone and get some stuff out.

Agreed, and I agree time limits are crucial. You can always agree to extend by 15 min, or table a matter "til the next meeting" and give them a definite date/time for it.

My worry is the youngest will give out a SIGH...but I think the older ones will go for it and she's close to them. She'll listen to what THEY say, I suspect.

And then prompt them. "I heard so and so say dad won't listen so they don't want to share how they feel with them. H, do you want to listen and how do you think you might show them you want to? Think, body language, not arguing or getting defensive, really hearing where they are and how they feel without getting mad about it." "Kids, are you willing to say what you're feeling without using hurtful or mean words?" "What does love look like to you, what are you expecting and not getting?"

"What does work obligation mean to you dad, how do you feel about getting pulled between duty and family? and how do you think family should behave to ease this for you?" "Kids, how do you think you should be easing this challenge for dad?" I don't know, maybe with you facilitating they could do this.


I can and have used a lot of this^^ before in other exercises w/people, but I need to do so with our family. I especially like the highlighted parts and think I'll use them.

It's possible we'll do this FIRST with our mc-family therapist b/c my h liked him, as do I, and the kids will too.

Turns out the MC we had (the therapist I'm referring to) is semi famous for national talks on marriage and family.

He's athletic, a "man's man" and he's a great speaker. So I think the kids will take to him. I know I did. If he facilitates the first 1-2 meetings, that will be good for us to model with.

Separately, I'm sending one of the older children to that workshop I mention often. (And h will go back to it himself for his own work. I suspect that is where he'll deal with some of the issues the deployment raised b/c he'll feel safe there.)


I did facilitate a conversation with my kids and their dad. One was upstairs yelling and slamming doors and we sat down together and I tried to translate to help them make progress.

Did the slamming doors help? They sure do NOT help in our home...


Saying "I hear you, son, saying xyz, is that what you were trying to say?" "I hear your dad getting frustrated and raising his voice, can you hear the message he's saying instead of just objecting to the way he's saying it?"

Adinva, almost None of us can do this^^^, imo. IF h raises his voice with ME, I tune him out. Same goes for our kids. They tune US out at the slightest increase in volume or tone.

H knows this and tries not to raise his voice with me at all (or darn rarely) and less with the kids than before. STILL, w/his recent sensitivity, there are times we have to speak as if we are sedated b/c people can get or feel so defensive.


It was kind of like our therapy session except without the therapist. she had actually suggested we do it on a regular basis but it was a little too new-agey for my family dynamic and we've kind of kept it as an as-needed tool.

Also, I believe a big factor in the problems that are happening is the unspeakable trauma your H has been through. That can't be ignored and glossed over.

I hear you. H came back at Christmas and just last WEEK, we got the "family debriefing" letter. (Um, thanks for that family preparation...NOW...)

Like most soldiers, even the medical personnel, h had to stay at a transitional place for 4 days before coming all the way home, presumably to discuss/decompress.

My oldest brother just returned from his time in Afghanistan and has a permanently screwed up leg, both ugly & painful! He likes to say "what about my dancing career?"

My brother uses humor to diffuse a lot but he's been affected to an addictive amount. I think he'd go back if they'd let him. And HE drinks too much. Period.

Together they may help each other. Too bad we live 3000 miles away...
But I digress.


The unspeakable .....things... he witnessed or heard/felt or treated over there, MIGHT be addressable with the V.A., but it's not what I'd term PTSD.

(NOR would h ever call it that, partly for professional reasons and partly b/c I think he'd label his present emotional state as an adjustment challenge that he'll meet. Plus, his frame of reference for what is true PTSD, is a lot more gritty than most civilians.)

I will say he felt good about the pain relief he provided the little girl, which amazed her family. He did a great nerve block so that she could be conscious w/her family, but without pain in her feet. (Temporary for now, but could be made permanent with a spinal cord implant).

Many amputations will later present with phantom limb pain, which is complicated to treat. I have to give the military medical corps credit for their focus on that,

b/c so many soldiers are coming back missing limbs. They used to just die from infection, And IEDs are used more now. Phantom limb pain is very strange and hard to treat. But its H's specialty.

H functions fine at work and isn't "crazy" at home. He doesn't drink a lot, but he does drink a tad more than before. I think that's b/c he CAN drink alcohol now, and he could not do so over there, or eat pork, etc. I don't believe I'm in denial about a drinking problem w/h, b/c we both had alcoholic dads and are fairly paranoid about it. Time will tell. And YES I'd point it out to him in a heartbeat if need be.

We both served In the Gulf War when we were active duty. I met a woman in a burka, who had an "immigration issue" & came to my office for help, w/an interpreter. When I asked her to sign a document so I could seek asylum for her, her interpreter showed me the stumps of her hands b/c Saddam Hussein's son, Uday, had cut her hands off for something her husband had done.

She could only make an "X" for a signature, which had to be witnessed and attested to... They don't teach you much about that stuff in law school...it affected me a lot. Not PTSD, but a pivotal experience for sure.

So I feel that I "get it" about the crap there, more than most spouses might, as far as how h feels. However, I've had years and years to process that memory, among others. H hasn't.Plus he has trouble pretending the Taliban is a force to negotiate with now...but I don't want to get political.

It's just a feeling of futility/hypocrisy that seems to enrage him more, but only WHEN he speaks of it. Which isn't every day.

The kids were too small or non existent back then, to know we served before. NOW is all they know or see.

Understand, I will not let things slide on this. There is no inertia or complacency in ME. I Can't speak for everyone else. But my gut says I just need to find or create a safe place to explore all this.


Thanks for listening. Seriously.

[movingon-1968]

We both served In the Gulf War when we were active duty.

My hat is off to both of you for serving.

Reading stuff like you just posted really kind of makes my personal issues seem small...

[keep_going]

25 -

Thanks for sharing all of this with us and for continuing to teach us just how to do it. As you and I were discussing the other day, having a "restored" marriage is not the happy ending, rainbow and unicorns existence we may think. Seeing the issues that life brings to a M and a family even after you go through piecing and are lucky enough to restore your M, are a reminder of how we always have to continue working on ourselves and in making the best of our situations.

Understand, I will not let things slide on this. There is no inertia or complacency in ME. I Can't speak for everyone else. But my gut says I just need to find or create a safe place to explore all this.

This^^^^^^ attitude is so admirable and such a clear testament of all the hard work you have done on yourself, through DBing, EE and everything you have opened your heart and mind to. All the things you have chosen to do to become this amazing, strong woman who chooses to face adversity and harship head on, be solution-based in your approach and make the best of things.

You know how I admire you.
((((((((hugs to you)))))))))

[25yearsmlc]

KG~~~

thank YOU. (And right back at ya!)

As you said, and we all sort of knew, piecing and restoring a marriage does not end all of the problems you have. Life still throws us curve balls, and that's the stuff that is NOT even of our making...let alone our mistakes in the future.

What I learned recently, is that my kids did NOT accompany me on the DB journey the way I assumed. Parts of it, yes.

But they were not at Retrovaille, they did not witness my h's breakthrough, they didn't hear our talks, or our phone conversations in which h said he wanted another chance to be "the h I deserved." RetroV, and those conversations were a huge part of why I felt comfortable reconciling. But the kids were not there!

My kids have their own r's with him. Some of their times and memories are pretty good. H coached son's wrestling team early in life, and he was a very involved father when he was home. Never afraid to get on the floor and play dolls with our oldest d, for instance. And never refuses to shoot hoops with our d2 (the 15 y/o) if and when she asks...which isn't often enough, but oh well.

But since the marital challenge we faced, they've had their own pain and rejection to deal with. I reassured them at the time, of his love. I excused his absence, to their faces, by saying he was "confused/mid life crisis/a workaholic looking to change pace/ETC".

I regret that all this time I was focussed only on making ME the best ME I can be, and on making MY marriage work, keeping OUR family intact. And thinking that was best for ALL...it kind of leaves them out as individuals.

The other thing I realized lately, is that when I did the "Essential Experience" workshop, I was almost 30. Then I began doing "team" and did it again in my 30s, again in my early 40s and again last week, as a 50 something y/o. In each decade, I wrote that I was "in transition" in some major part of my life.

I now see, we are almost always in transition. From one stage to another, one new challenge or joy, (or both) in life. There is never an "arrival destination".

So the journey HAS to be a good one; it's really all that life is made up of...a journey somewhere. With "scenic moments" or "bad crashes" along the way.

Along the way, if we are lucky & loving, we share our journeys with others.

They share their lives w/us, we touch lives, or we are touched. We learn to love more, give more, think more, laugh more, learn to "BE" in the present more.

If we do this^^, and recommit to it often enough so we aren't complacent, we can learn to Stop thinking about how NOT to enjoy our "Scenic moments" as much.

We'll notice more chances for fuller participation in life, like when a partner asks to ML,

we will STOP ourselves from immediately considering all the other things that might need doing, BEFORE we can enjoy our partner...

"What's that you asked? Do I want to Make love? You mean...NOW?

("No, I mean next Tuesday").

Well, gee, let me think. Have I finished the dishes/laundry?? Am I REALLY in the mood???"

So yes, we make things better but we keep on having to do that. Like I said, there's no arrival destination. So we better enjoy the trip along the way.

So I'm now learning that my kids are not at peace with h. They don't hate him, thank God. And he is trying to re-connect. I can see that.

To an extent, I might have to be okay with the fact that I'm closer to my kids than h is. I mean, that's not really a bad thing. Heck, it would bother me more if he were closer to them...So there you go.

To me, YOU, KG, Adinva, Kaffe Diem, Valeska & Crimson are among the most inspirational stories here. Notice, not one of you is reconciled with your spouses, (yet).


Of those who have reconciled, such as Denver, Sandi, Mach 1, BreakingAway, faithfulHusband, well, they all did the same as you did above.

You made the journey an inward one, so that the outward one could be authentic.

Sometimes, your spouse makes the choice to rejoin you in the "joint yet individual" journey we all must make, and that's a beautiful thing.

(YES I know there are many others. I lack the time to list them all. You know who you are, don't you?)

Anyhow, the point is KG, YOU more than most, you keep going. You keep trying. You never surrender to self pity or anger. You don't spend time assigning blame to anyone but yourself, while admitting it was not all you (and seeing how you were put in an insane Superwoman role, with which I'm sadly familiar).

You have your bad days, as we all do, but there is never wallowing. There is always you looking for the thing to do that makes it better.

Perhaps You ought to change your screen name to "Keep Growing", b/c that's what you Keep doing.

((( )))

[keep_going]

25 -

wow...
I feel so honored to hear you say such nice things about me.

I have always had a very, very hard time accepting compliments, so I will just try to be gracious and say THANK YOU.

Your words surely motivate me more than ever and I just feel grateful to have found this community where we can learn from so many great people like the ones you mention and many others you didn't.

((((((25))))))

[Valeska19]

To me, YOU, KG, Adinva, Kaffe Diem, Valeska & Crimson are among the most inspirational stories here. Notice, not one of you is reconciled with your spouses, (yet).

Aww shucks.. I'm speechless

If this is your way of getting me to take you for a ride in my new jeep....

... it's working.