In this moment, CV, I finally get what you mean about why it's easier to have an alcoholic H. How it's easier to explain.
Living in an environment of constant lies is NOT a tolerable or acceptable situation. SS had it exactly right when she called it "pathological." Your H gaslights also... Very unhealthy.
"After I "get the agreements in writing, work on them together, then sign them with a witness," then what? What do I do next when he still hasn't done it? "
And that is why we do nothing together. My "boundaries" are being enforced. So it seems we can just skip the "in writing" step, since we would just end up here anyway.
His boundary to not be in a SSM is no more important than the boundaries you have set.
If all you're getting is lies and deceit, there's no reason that I can think of for you to continue trying to be in a R with him. I can think of no logical or illogical reason for you have to accept his failure to respect your boundaries.
Originally Posted By: lostinscared
Your H gaslights also... Very unhealthy.
Until I read this thread, I didn't have a full concept of what 'gaslighting' is, since I had never really heard the term. Interesting term for a despicable behavior...
Well I hope this doesn't sound like I'm back-tracking and defending him, because I'm really just trying to clarify. He does lie and has done so throughout our M, and on some very hurtful topics (ex. online affair.) But this very recent discussion of his committing to do something and then not doing it is not even something I classify as lying. I believe he fully intends to do it when he commits to it, but them simply forgets or no longer cares when the time comes to actually doing it.
For example, he has taken on the responsibility of paying the bills (physically, not financially.) In my book, that means paying them on time. It's not that tough of a job, most of the bills are auto-paid electronically. And we pay off everything every month so it's just a matter of writing the checks, not having to be financially creative. The only ugly part of the process is sorting through all the statements and junk mail that comes in (don't get me started USPS!) and finding the 3 or 4 bills that have to be paid manually. After missing a few due dates and having to pay late fees, he committed to going through the mail everyday when it comes in and then paying the bills every Sunday night. Well one of the spats this weekend resulted because there were 3-4 weeks of mail stacked in the mail basket (S12 brings it in) and a bill wasn't paid. NONE were paid but this one was expensive ($35 late fee + 22% interest.) He only knew about it because I tracked down this specific bill to see that it had gotten paid and it hadn't, and then I found it in the stack of mail.
The really sad part for me is that he went and discussed our argument with a counselor and her suggestion was that I should do the bills since I'm better at it. (He, of course, came back and told me this.) The problem is, if you look at it that way, I'm better at EVERYTHING. There's no talent required for this task. The recycle bin is literally right next to the mail basket, which is right next to the refrigerator. I have everything else set up to auto-pay. It literally is 3 or 4 bills that have to be monitored. And I've provided no instruction whatsoever because H does not like to be controlled.
So is this lying? It's definitely not doing what he committed to, so his word isn't worth squat. Is it crazy-making? Definitely. Is it gas-lighting? I don't know. I know that no one that knows my H would believe he's capable of anything despicable, so I definitely look crazy to everyone else.
OT, I do focus on myself, not just on ways to improve myself but on ways that I can interact with H assuming he's never going to change. Part of that process involves trying to understand him. I've read a ton of articles/books that talk to the fact that "shaming" is the worst thing you can do to a man. So I don't point out the growing stack of mail because he might interpret it as shaming him. Of course, nagging is definitely off-limits. Controlling? LOL! By the time I eliminate all the possible negative inputs I might present, I'm left with nothing but a growing pile of mail.
The other problem I have is that it is completely possible that H has a "real" problem, something tangible, something measurable, something more than "he's just a normal guy." Yesterday, I was researching "coping" skills, because that was something H told me I needed to work on. In that process, I stumbled across a site that was devoted to ADD/ADHD in M, and the symptoms and impact. At one point, I felt like I needed to search the house for hidden cameras and microphones, it was so personal. H was told years ago by a counselor that he should probably be tested for ADD, but he never did it.
The counselor he's seeing right now he's seeing because I literally demanded it, ultimatum and everything. (It wasn't pretty but I had reached the end of my rope.) He was supposed to be getting tested for ADD, narcissism and a few other things. I think he started in October? How long does it take for an ADD diagnosis? Supposedly, "they're still considering it." So, if it doesn't test out and there's not a prescription that can help address the problem, then what? I have a spouse with all the symptoms of someone with ADD, but there's no biological reason for it. Which means it's just all him, his choice, his way of life. Does that make him diabolical? Despicable? Evil? Or just selfish, immature, lazy, and irresponsible? To me it doesn't really matter. From my point of view, it all looks the same. I'm living with a "child" that demands that I have sex with him, or else. And I'm told that's a healthy boundary of his.
What you describe here is neither lying nor gaslighting. Previous incidents you refer to are. What you describe here about the bills is definitely lazy (went through the same thing with my H and nearly had my lights shut off).
Why do you feel crazy? I'm really interested in what makes you feel crazy? I just don't think you are, but me saying that doesn't help. What pushes you to that?
I'm a little confused about "still considering" an ADD diagnosis. Is he borderline or something? My father was diagnosed in his first visit, my nephew was diagnosed in his second visit... I don't recall any kind of extended testing or questioning.
You've definitely got your hands full. I might have a different view than many people but, here's my take: If I tell someone I'm going to do something and then intentionally do not follow thru - I'd have to consider that a lie because I did so in order to achieve a goal; i.e.: getting my W off my back. So yes, that act could easily be a lie.
Forgetting is another story altogether - yes, I have forgotten to do something I said I would and I've shown remorse because I actually DID intend to do that and I DID FORGET. I've not been there to see your H's reaction to these types of things, so I'm not qualified to judge.
Originally Posted By: CV
I'm living with a "child" that demands that I have sex with him, or else. And I'm told that's a healthy boundary of his.
I'm sorry, I have to disagree with this being a healthy boundary. Why is it he can have a boundary that requires you to have sex with him, but, he doesn't have to respect you and your boundaries? There's nothing healthy about that.
As for gaslighting (definition below - this thread made me look it up...)
(a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.[1] Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim)
If your H is indeed doing things like this, I would lean towards him being diabolical, despicable, and evil. Again, it's one man's opinion, but, there has to be some forethought involved in these actions, and certainly a lack of self accountability or respect for you.
I'm a little confused about "still considering" an ADD diagnosis. Is he borderline or something? My father was diagnosed in his first visit, my nephew was diagnosed in his second visit... I don't recall any kind of extended testing or questioning.
^^^ What she said. I've had three family members diagnosed and it took no more than twp visits. So... is he actually seeing someone or just telling you he is...?
I can point to a couple of "crazy moments" in these last couple of posts. Granted, I realize that they're just opinions, but when the opinions are completely opposing, it leaves my head spinning so that I don't know which way is up. There are many things in my life that I'm confident about, because I know at least something or even a fair amount about the subject; I've had experience that proves one way or the other. But I don't have that experience/comparison with M. I've never been M'd before. And most people don't wear their problems on their sleeves so you can relate to whether your sitch is "normal" or not. I have no experience with ADD, don't know anyone diagnosed that I could talk to about it (doesn't mean they weren't diagnosed, but again, not wearing their diagnosis openly for me to know.) So I guess I'm easily confused on things like that when I'm told different "facts" which aren't easily proven one way or the other.
The other thing I struggle with is how to apply the fact that people are just different. My H is a slob. He says he doesn't like it, but doesn't do anything about it. Can I really say he's "wrong" because he chooses to live that way? I CAN say I don't like living with it. Is the fact that I don't like it grounds for D? H would tell you I'm a perfectionist and he doesn't like living with my tidy and organized requirements. I KNOW I'm not a perfectionist, I've actually looked into it. And H would tell you he's not a slob, just a normally occasionally messy person. So who's right? How do I know if I'm being reasonable or not? And this is not a debate about who's right or wrong, but trying to determine what is an acceptable way to live.
H and I also think very differently. More than just I like tidy and he could care less. I think linear. He doesn't. I don't know how he thinks to even describe it. An example: one of the reasons why sex is off the table right now is that I'm simply tired of it being all about him. I've tried to instruct him, but again, he just can't remember from one time to the next. Long story short, I told him I'm tired of unsatisfying sex and he needed to go see a sex therapist since I didn't seem to have the ability to teach him. So he went. He spent the whole time talking about our R. She's the one that told him that I should do the mail since I'm better at it. So, I think to myself... If I was paying $160 for someone to explain to me how to please my H sexually, I can't imagine being content with a suggestion that HE should pick up more household responsibility; that that would in any way be an answer to my question of how to appease my H's sexual needs. But that's what he came away with and delivered to me. So I guess after I go through the mail this evening, I should expect that my sexual needs will be completely satisfied with sex still being all about my H? Okay, sorry, but that makes me feel crazy. Trying to understand him and empathize and make something rational out of it hurts my head.
As for seeing someone, I guess since I haven't followed him to the counselor's office, I can't actually say for sure. He has invited me to join him, but I haven't wanted to. Besides, the timing of his appts wouldn't have ever worked out anyway. He said he was trying some prescriptions for ADD. Said the first one gave him a low-grade headache and didn't improve anything. Says he's on another now but that he doesn't notice anything on it either. His GP told him that if he had ADD, then the prescription would be like a fog being lifted. H says he hasn't experienced anything like that. So now what? I'm not qualified to diagnose or prescribe. What if he doesn't even have it? I'm just left with a person that exhibits all the negative symptoms with nothing that can be done about it.
Are you unhappy with him and distrustful of his motives because:
1) He's a slob 2) He doesn't think linearly 3) He may/may not have ADD
These may be things that annoy you... I find we are more easily annoyed when there is a bigger thing going on. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe these are your chief issues. And if they are, then are you able to live with this?
But these are not the chief issues that you have expressed. In fact, the chronic lying and him choosing his children over you have seemed to be the biggest issues you are pointing to.
There is rarely a right or wrong in these situations. Boy, it would be so much easier if there were! I mean I'm sure there are a million people who can come on here and say I was wrong to leave an alcoholic. A million that would say I am right. It's meaningless. It's about what is right for us.
