25yearsmlc

[Grizz]

25, we have not had much communication personally however I have read many of your posts on other threads. Your insight is so much appreciated. Your post above says so much. Thanks again for all of your help.

[25yearsmlc]

Grizz, you're very welcome.

Cadet - SIDENOTE my mom's dementia is getting worse. Thank God she's physically so dang active. My goal this year is to be with her MORE, as in, a lot more. My older sister is a saint. Mom's dementia now takes on some emotionally difficult aspects. It's not a problem repeating ourselves, we get that. But she has no filters left. So in public, she tells people rude things, and it's mortifying. I expressed my appreciation to my sister when I was there. She's the epitome of kindness and dignity in adversity, and always has been. Even My older sister (the saint) says she needs "more support" from our siblings b/c she is "feeling challenged", which is like me saying I want to kill someone.

ANYHOW, yes I thought about the part re; the mirroring. Is d15 simply verbalizing what SHE thinks I feel?

I can honestly say, my h & I seem TO ME, to be strong as a couple. I feel closer to him than in years, usually.

But I think HE vents to them when he's upset and I told him this past weekend, "that is SO not helping US " or his r's with them. Neither of us can vent ABOUT the other parent, to our children.
It's just not good for them AND it's not good for US as a couple.

Bottom line is that they have not forgiven him for his MLC (and I only use that "MLC" term b/c of ease. I think the label is a distraction). Well at least, the youngest sure hasn't forgiven him AND to her, he's repeating the behavior.

For ME, his reason for being gone during the week now, is a heck of a lot more important to me, and in alignment with my goals, than living in Alaska ever was.

As for me being in denial...it's always possible. IF h weren't looking for a job locally, I'd feel more like he was repeating the past behavior. But he wants a local job that allows for the pension (He had 17 years of active duty service they count towards it).

And if h really does go off on them when I'm not around (i was out of town last weekend) then that's a problem.

According to the KIDS, while I was gone, there was a "blow out and d15 almost ran away", although H did not yell. (To me that means he did not "lose it", and that counts for something with a 15 y/o who can be very smart mouthed).

But According to H, there was "a really productive talk" between him and the youngest.

Interesting dichotomy. Who is right? Can it be that they both are?

I think the ONE MC we went to years ago, who was actually helpful, (for one thing, he liked me AND h, and that really helps) would be a good source of family mediation.

I think I'll call him for a "family session".

I also think encouraging h to spend some one on one time with the kids, even if it "feels awkward" to the d's, cannot hurt. OVER TIME, they'll be less awkward.

If it turns into a b1tch session, they'll obviously end them.

H said he'd go back to the workshop we attended many years ago. ("Essential Experience", aka "EE". I don't mean to sound like a salesman so I apologize for seeming to promote it. I am not a recruiter for it, just a big fan.)

When I was in my late 20s, I went to EE, and then H went b/c of the changes he saw in me. We got a lot out of EE and it brought us very close. After doing it separately, as participants, we returned to do it together as "team members", which means helping the new participants.

(Without the EE experience, I doubt I'd have been motivated to use the DB techniques. It's just that I knew we'd once been genuine soul mates.)

Anyhow, I went there last weekend and did "team" and I felt rejuvenated.
H texted me at the time, that he "wished [he] had gone too", and I agreed. The next one is in May so I'm hoping we'll go together to it. We also want our adult children to do it, when they're ready for taking charge of their lives.

The EE exercises & supportive atmospherre really got us past the outer layers of anger and fear and past hurts, and it helps us connect at a profoundly deeper level. If we don't go in May, we can go in August, (only b/c it's on our anniversary, which is weirldy cool.) BTW, I did team for EE in my 30s and 40s and now, as a 50 something-er.

EACH time I went, I felt I was "in transition", so I now realize, we always are in transition! As they say, the only constant is change.

ALSO, fyi

H returned from his overseas deployment NOT the same. He has some anger and he now questions the role of organized religion b/c of the theocracy he saw as a problem. I feel as if he's throwing out the baby with the bath water, but that's another issue to address later.

Though he's not consciously angry at US, sometimes it feels that way. I sympathize b/c I was active duty in the first Gulf War and I met some torture victims from the Saddam Hussein regime. It was a pivotal experience for me.

My h saw pretty crazy stuff, acts of barbarity he still cannot fathom.

For example, the Afghani interpreter for the surgery department asked for asylum for his family, b/c the Taliban harassed him for "aiding" the Americans, (who were all medical personnel giving free care to the locals.) The surgery department agreed to help.

But the very next night, the interpreter brought in his 5 y/o daughter. The Taliban had put her little feet into a fire, (to punish him for helping Americans & to make an example of him). The little girl's feet had to be amputated. My h did the anesthesia for her. Nothing was released to the public about the event. That also infuriated him. So he is angry about a number of things.

I think I'll call the Vet's Admin b/c they finally sent us a letter about debriefing. We are not near a base, so finding support anywhere near us, is VERY hard.
Being active duty (which we are not now) had the advantage of living near people who totally got it, and who were sharing with us in the sacrifice.

ANYHOW, there are a ton of different things and one thing I've recently realized also, is that life always gives us challenges. We're never "all there now".

You can reconcile and the marriage can last and be restored, but your parents will still get sick or die, your kids will still have their own challenges, and you still have to take care of your health and finances...

I think MAYBE we focus so much on restoring the marriage, that we forget other stuff still comes up.

Thanks for the input. I welcome it.

[adinva]

Hey 25.

You're dealing with an awful lot. Take care of you first.

I have an angry 15yo boy and talk a lot about him here. It's interesting to note that your kids were not along for the ride through your marriage transformation and reconciliation. Something obvious in retrospect but you would think of course they'd be happy you're back together and that's that.

But they each have their own opinion of their dad and their own relationship with him, and they didn't get to work through those things while you did. And - they did not have a role in the history of what happened to you two. It's easier for you to forgive and move on because you were half of the whole. They were innocent bystanders. That makes sense to me.

My S15 thinks his dad is a jerk, tells his friends he hates him, and is disrespectful to his face, avoids him as much as possible. And he's only been abandoned since December. What I see happening is that the more awkward it gets between them, and the more obvious it is that S15 is angry, the more distance H puts there. It's like he's expecting a relationship of equals where they can bury the hatchet and act like everything's normal. He's the adult, and I think he needs to face the fire, suffer the insults and insubordination to get to that child and hold him tight and love him and try harder.

There are ways of being less awkward around an ornery teen, and it's hard when as the mom I feel like I've done enough damage trying to create their relationship for them and manage it for them. I feel like I need to let them figure it out and yet they neither of them have the tools. Since you're in a better relationship with your H maybe you can suggest things to try to make it less awkward. Simply showing up at their events if they have events, showing up and being interested in them, even if they act like that's lame and embarassing. Driving them places, golden for a 15yo. I drive my kids anywhere and everywhere, including all the neighborhood boys. There's not much I can do to really connect with them other than to play taxi driver for them as much as possible. And I get to hear their music and I hear their jokes and who they think is cute. I get to ask them a few questions or sometimes even insert my opinion.

Maybe there's a tv series they can watch together and H can try to make that their thing they do together. Or cook together. It's gotta be something more purposeful than being dropped off to "spend time together." Even a meal out at a restaurant can be a little excruciating with my 15yo, unless I bring a friend for him. Maybe you can suggest things like these or other ideas that can help your H push through the awkwardness and just get some time in to make up for the time he was noticeably absent.

I think it makes total sense that your 15yo counts active duty as abandonment time. Her world revolves around her. Learning to understand and maybe forgive his absences could come partly from talking to you about things and both of you sharing your perspectives.

I think it's pretty cool that she's so open with you that she'd call you weak for what she observes. I mean, bad for you, but good for her as an independent thinker and bold speaker. That gives you a chance to talk to her more. Kids see things so starkly, they just don't get how complicated a 20+ year marriage can be, or how you make choices in life and it's not all black and white. She'll learn a lot from talking with you and observing you, and someday (when you're 91) she's probably going to realize how very strong you were. She's probably trying to push your buttons anyway.

I did some family counseling with H and my boys, two sessions, to learn how to have a respectful family meeting. I think it was very good for us. The boys were not happy about having to go to a counselor, and they didn't like her. But I've seen evidence that some of her ideas sank in. I think it would do my H a world of good to have some IC himself to learn how to build a relationship with his angry children.

My IC is really big on modeling and talking with the kids, role playing conversations that might be difficult, and encouraging them to share how they feel in an environment where they'll be listened to and not punished for speaking out. We're not there yet, but it's a work in progress. She thinks my S15 is going to need to talk to his dad, tell him how he feels about being left, about how unfairly he thinks he's being treated with all the criticism and yelling. She said he may not get satisfaction from H, but to stand up and have that conversation, respectfully, is part of becoming an adult and will do him good. She said that he may learn from that, that his dad just isn't able to provide the connection he needs. She said that a lot of the benefit comes from just S15 recognizing and asking for it.

I wish I had more answers than questions, but it's hard to watch things not go so well between your kids and their dad. I think the key is being real with them, hearing their perspective and giving it respect rather than trying too hard to explain to them why they're just not understanding the way things have to be. Encouraging them to understand their feelings and share them respectfully.

I also have thought about this, and wonder what you think. I think my S15 feels he's being loyal to me in a way by being angry at my H's shortcomings. I think I might tell him that I understand why he would be angry and why he would want to be disrespectful, but that what I want more than anything is for him to learn to build a respectful relationship with his dad. And I might try to give him suggestions on how to do that. So he can learn how to express disapproval without smirks and passive aggressive behavior but up front words. So he can learn to say how he feels instead of acting it out.

We focus so much on saving ourselves, and saving our marriages, but I hadn't thought so much until now about how the kids might feel differently about that.

[NLW]

25, Adinva,

Your experiences with teenaged children match my own.

My D17 and S14 have a lot of anger towards stbx.

I've been wondering lately how a R would work (not likely in my case), given that children carry such scars.

For example, STBX rang my kids last night and spoke to D17 first. When he was passed to S14, first thing stbx asked him was "Is your sister still being a cow?"

Imagine how hard it would be to get those relationships back on track if stbx and I were ever reconciled.

In short, just wanted to say thanks for this thread. It seems yet another important part of this process that we all need to work at.

[adinva]

NLW, what did S14 say to that? What did you tell S14? S14 has every right to say "Father, I will not listen to you say things like that. Should I hang up now or do you want to say something respectful?" Or does S14 like having a buddy who calls his sis a cow? Blech.

[25yearsmlc]

NLW, what did S14 say to that? What did you tell S14? S14 has every right to say "Father, I will not listen to you say things like that. Should I hang up now or do you want to say something respectful?" Or does S14 like having a buddy who calls his sis a cow? Blech.

Thankfully my h never says things like that about any of the kids. Wow...OUCH!! Or "blech".

[angel61]

Just wanted to add my thanks, 25. You gave me so much good advice and so much to think about.

There were a few of you who really helped me along, and your at the top!

Continue posting, we continue to read and learn.

[NLW]

Ad,

S14 has problems with S17 - they are both angry and often take their anger out on each other.

And yeah, you hit the nail with your comment: stbx does try to be a 'buddy' rather than a father.

Tellingly, when we were on the cruise just days before bomb drop, a steward asked me if stbx was their older brother. I was mortified at the time cause i thought he meant i looked old enough to be his mother.

But thinking back on it, steward didn't know I was stbx's wife, just saw me as part of the extended family group. And stbx was acting like a teenager with the kids, even in public.

Re the call, stbx ended it pretty soon after he got little response from S14.
Told S14 to call him back when he had more time to talk. S14 did not return the call.

[25yearsmlc]

Great post Adinva.

I'll take it piece by piece...if I can

Hey 25.

You're dealing with an awful lot. Take care of you first.


I feel I am taking care of myself by going to my workshop (EE) and how I live myself. I do SOME self care things for me. Maybe not enough until lately.

But you're right; it's a lot and not all of it is H, or d15 or "us". The deployment trauma issues are real but there are tools to avail myself of and I will this week. Plus, time will help, and I know that.

As for his time gone FROM US and that aspect, again, time will HELP but it won't solve all of it.

I have an angry 15yo boy and talk a lot about him here. It's interesting to note that your kids were not along for the ride through your marriage transformation and reconciliation. Something obvious in retrospect but you would think of course they'd be happy you're back together and that's that.

AGREED...Except they watched me carefully at the time. I specifically recall d1, then 16, telling her babysitting boss that she "admired" me for DBing and "trying to keep our family together and my vows".

But SHE was very hurt by h's departure. She was 16 then. She cried and asked him to stay but he left anyhow.

That is a memory I still work on letting go of, and if there is one thing I hold onto (not by choice but b/c it's hard to let go of) it's that memory of her tears and his later departure. With all my heart/soul, I KNOW I could not have done that to her.

SIDENOTE--I do think d15 MUST speak with respect to both her parents. Regardless of what we have done to each other, we put a roof over her head and we're her parents and this is OUR HOME. Live by the rules or live elsewhere.

But they each have their own opinion of their dad and their own relationship with him, and they didn't get to work through those things while you did. And - they did not have a role in the history of what happened to you two. It's easier for you to forgive and move on because you were half of the whole. They were innocent bystanders. That makes sense to me.

All ^^ true. And it IS an overlooked element of reconciling. (But I'm very glad I did not bad mouth him then. Seriously.

D1 would say "Dad's being selfish" and I'd say "he' s just confused" and she'd say "or both". She'd ask "what's going on?" and I'd try to project confidence. The most important thing then, was to say "I'll do what I honestly feel is going to make YOU guys happiest in the long run." I meant it. I thought/think an intact marriage usually makes them happier than a split one.

I think my biggest fear is how they NOW see MY DBing...is it weak or strong, to stay and forgive?

(Oh don't worry. I have MY opinion, but it's theirs that concerns me at the moment).

My S15 thinks his dad is a jerk, tells his friends he hates him, and is disrespectful to his face, avoids him as much as possible. And he's only been abandoned since December.

Ouch!!....


What I see happening is that the more awkward it gets between them, and the more obvious it is that S15 is angry, the more distance H puts there. It's like he's expecting a relationship of equals where they can bury the hatchet and act like everything's normal. He's the adult, and I think he needs to face the fire, suffer the insults and insubordination to get to that child and hold him tight and love him and try harder.

Within limits, I agree. (back to the respect thing--goes both ways but the eye rolling and sighs are super tiresome)

Thankfully, My h DOES make an effort with them. He knows he is the adult and HE is the one who was gone so much. He can lose his temper at times, but it's not a batchit crazy temper (yet). More like irritability when he's on edge. He seems to find it hard to relax unless he FULLY relaxes and does nothing,

or he fully works on many tasks/projects and can't stand others around him relaxing. This is a trait of his that is hard on all of us.

To the youngest, he seems "fake" b/c he approaches them with a smile and enthusiasm b/c to h, that's a PMA. To HER, it's weird. Or as she says "psycho", which is lovely...

I know why the kids feel that's weird, but I also know what h is trying to do. That's a tough one for me. Not sure yet what to do about it yet.

There are ways of being less awkward around an ornery teen, and it's hard when as the mom I feel like I've done enough damage trying to create their relationship for them and manage it for them. I feel like I need to let them figure it out and yet they neither of them have the tools.

I hear you. Is your son willing to see a c? I'm not sure it'll help (but it can't be worse than most mc's.)

In our case, My H can regain the tools he feels rusty with. I think he will do so (this is apart from the deployment stuff but just THEIR r's)

My older kids can get tools too, b/c I'm going to have them attend the workshop, separately. And h will also go, (separately from them but with me.) BTW, the EE workshop is in Philadelphia so I don't think it's far from you. And they offer free housing if you don't want to spend $$ on a hotel.

That still leaves d15 unattended so far.

Since you're in a better relationship with your H maybe you can suggest things to try to make it less awkward. Simply showing up at their events if they have events, showing up and being interested in them, even if they act like that's lame and embarassing.

I have to give that to him...If he can at all, he shows up for her games. He's genuinely interested and it is a topic she's willing to discuss.

Granted, he was gone to the Middle East for months. But before and since, he's not missed but one or two of her games for work.

THEN, when he's working, he'll want me or s26 to text him a blow by blow discussion of the game. This ruins the game for US b/c I can't just watch it...and makes us all want to say, "LIVE here if you want to see the games."

Saying that in writing reveals to me that I am not as at peace with the working away from home in the week as I thought.

He'll need to get a job HERE pretty darn fast. It's bugging me more than I realized.


Driving them places, golden for a 15yo. I drive my kids anywhere and everywhere, including all the neighborhood boys. There's not much I can do to really connect with them other than to play taxi driver for them as much as possible. And I get to hear their music and I hear their jokes and who they think is cute. I get to ask them a few questions or sometimes even insert my opinion.

For sure, taxiing is the main way I discover significant things from my kids. When they're small you also put them to bed and get an earful, and even these days, I might get a serious word or two at that time. But it's brief unless I go into their room.

But as the older kids are here for the next 4 months, they have taken on parental roles (NOT at my request, btw) and they all confide in each other. Usually the older ones report back to me what d15's main concerns are, if she has not discussed it with me directly.

I'm glad they are close. Very glad. But sure, I wonder if some of their perceptions color the other's.

Don't we all?


Maybe there's a tv series they can watch together and H can try to make that their thing they do together.

We all tend to watch a few series together. Maybe making it a one on one thing is a good idea (but my guess is h will want "all of us to be together" at those times...b/c he knows that his time is limited AND our older kids won't be in the house much longer).

Incidentally This is the first time in 8 years all 3 lived under one roof, except for past holidays.

BTW when h first left, our son was far off at college. My 2 d's and I began watching "American Idol" and "The Closer" together. Especially AI became a real "treat" for us to do.

We'd discuss my musical tastes and theirs, b/c the show played all types so we connected on that level. And we'd vote together and discuss it and it was a bonding experience.

They have sort of grown out of it now but I"ll always have fond memories of that show b/c it was an "all girls" thing to do and h was gone and so was son....
It was one of the first things we did to get a PMA and to feel that there might be an "upside" or two, to having no men around. Or at least not h.




Or cook together. It's gotta be something more purposeful than being dropped off to "spend time together." Even a meal out at a restaurant can be a little excruciating with my 15yo, unless I bring a friend for him.


I hear you!! Evidently offering an opinion on ANYTHING is "OMG Mom, SO lame".

Then again, last night d15 entered my room to ask me to "rant" about a current event near here. She was doing a report and she translated the parts of what I said that she agreed with, for her paper.

I have mixed feelings about that but mostly, I admit, I felt flattered that she'd take my words and adopt some of them as her own. (I can only hope this was allowed by the teacher. NO sources were requested, so there you go...) And of course, none of her friends were around to see this.



Maybe you can suggest things like these or other ideas that can help your H push through the awkwardness and just get some time in to make up for the time he was noticeably absent.

I think it makes total sense that your 15yo counts active duty as abandonment time. Her world revolves around her.

Absolutely the world does revolve around her. If I ask her to do ANYTHING around the house, instantly, her homework is her priority...as for his overseas time,

She said "why didn't he just say 'no'" to the Army...? I was active duty before she was born, so she's not used to the Army telling you where to live or with whom. The older ones got it better...but still, you're right about this.

Learning to understand and maybe forgive his absences could come partly from talking to you about things and both of you sharing your perspectives.

Done that...I really defended his deployment but for THIS part ^^, whether she will, I think it'll take time or a shift in her paradigm (or not)...and that will be her thing to carry on if she wants.

My hope is that in time, she'll see him retire from the military (for real-no recalls) and him living here full time..

but it better happen soon or she'll graduate.


I think it's pretty cool that she's so open with you that she'd call you weak for what she observes. I mean, bad for you, but good for her as an independent thinker and bold speaker.

I'll work on seeing this^^^...as a positive. (The alternative stinks.)


That gives you a chance to talk to her more. Kids see things so starkly, they just don't get how complicated a 20+ year marriage can be, or how you make choices in life and it's not all black and white.

AMEN...


She'll learn a lot from talking with you and observing you, and someday (when you're 91) she's probably going to realize how very strong you were. She's probably trying to push your buttons anyway.

Good points

I did some family counseling with H and my boys, two sessions, to learn how to have a respectful family meeting. I think it was very good for us. The boys were not happy about having to go to a counselor, and they didn't like her.

Good for you! Did they get things off their chest at all?

But I've seen evidence that some of her ideas sank in. I think it would do my H a world of good to have some IC himself to learn how to build a relationship with his angry children.

any chance that will happen?

My IC is really big on modeling and talking with the kids, role playing conversations that might be difficult, and encouraging them to share how they feel in an environment where they'll be listened to and not punished for speaking out. We're not there yet, but it's a work in progress.


Good for you. I agree the kids must feel SAFE to say their feelings or they won't say them...directly...and things will stink around the home b/c of too many unexpressed pains.

She thinks my S15 is going to need to talk to his dad, tell him how he feels about being left, about how unfairly he thinks he's being treated with all the criticism and yelling. She said he may not get satisfaction from H, but to stand up and have that conversation, respectfully, is part of becoming an adult and will do him good.

Agreed. FWIW, best case scenario is your h will appear to listen.

Worst case, your son gets it off his chest (unless your h is the type to launch a counter attack. Best prepare your h for the storm coming so he gets his umbrella out and doesn't strike back).


She said that he may learn from that, that his dad just isn't able to provide the connection he needs. She said that a lot of the benefit comes from just S15 recognizing and asking for it.

Excellent point. Something I learned long ago is that some "emotional wells" are dry. You cannot get a drink from those wells. I still see friends going back to the narcissistic parent or sibling or spouse, for support -that the parent/sibling or spouse really cannot give. Their well is dry, for that friend, for whatever reason. The reason is not relevant, actually.

The friend needs to find wells that are not dry and to not go to dry wells when they have emotional thirst. Big life lesson.


I wish I had more answers than questions, but it's hard to watch things not go so well between your kids and their dad. I think the key is being real with them, hearing their perspective and giving it respect rather than trying too hard to explain to them why they're just not understanding the way things have to be. Encouraging them to understand their feelings and share them respectfully.

I hear you.^^

I also have thought about this, and wonder what you think. I think my S15 feels he's being loyal to me in a way by being angry at my H's shortcomings.

I GET THIS^^^...


I think I might tell him that I understand why he would be angry and why he would want to be disrespectful, but that what I want more than anything is for him to learn to build a respectful relationship with his dad. And I might try to give him suggestions on how to do that. So he can learn how to express disapproval without smirks and passive aggressive behavior but up front words. So he can learn to say how he feels instead of acting it out.

AGREED. I used to say to the kids (still do on occasion), "you know your father would kill/die for you, right?" And I meant it. I'd also say "if you are mad at your dad for how YOU feel, that's one thing. But I can handle my stuff with him on my own. I don't need your anger to add to mine so don't worry that it's "disloyal" of you to bond with him. I WANT you to bond with him...he loves you so much, even if he's confused, he's NOT confused about that..."

H's issues with me and his life not in the wilds, were NOT about the kids not being exciting or good enough. But d15 said ~3 months ago, "he'll just come home and get bored with me and leave again."

OUCH! I almost don't believe she believes that, but who knows?

Oh yeah, I TOLD HIM that. Not in anger but from concern.

He was touched and saddened so he knows it's on HIM to change things. Or so I think.

I DO think his expectations of the kids are unrealistic. I think he got that from his family.

On one side they were bitter immigrants. I recall the day h graduated first from veterinary school (he went to 'human medical school later in life)

and his Russian grandmother said, "Why can't you invent something USEFUL TO ME, or BE something useful to me, like a dentist?" Being a veterinarian meant literally nothing to HER. Later when he went to medical school she kept asking him when he'd finally be done...

H is not that way with our kids. But his enthusiasm can translate into a form of pressure.

Our older ones are professional actors and in the industry. EVERY time we see a good performance, h turns to the kids and means to encourage them
(it's a gut wrenching industry filled with rejection even for the famous "winners")

and says, "Wow, YOU could do that, even better!"

While he means well, it always seems like anything less than an Academy award or a super well paying film, will be insufficient. That tends to paralyze them if they let it. Lately they have not, but I can see that in the earlier years, they'd hold off from telling him of ANY parts they got for fear he'd tell everyone else and they might get dropped or edited out later. It can always happen.

Our oldest d had a GOOD role in a strong feature film, playing the young version of the lead actress. Then the lead actress changed, to do a different film. Suddenly and our d1 was now taller than the new lead actress and therefore our d lost the part. Not through an act of her own (except being tall). But h still tells our world that "she got that part!"
While that is true, for HER, it's painful to have gotten a role 2500 others auditioned for, she won, and then lost...& have to re-tell the story to those who don't know.

We focus so much on saving ourselves, and saving our marriages, but I hadn't thought so much until now about how the kids might feel differently about that.

Yes, well, You & me both. Hence the desire to post here. It is NOT in the DB book, btw. I checked.

[adinva]

NLW I can relate to that too. My H was the biggest adolescent in my house from about 5 years before my kids became adolescents. They watched inappropriate movies and snickered together and my H would get them to repeat stuff after him like little puppets...and somehow they grew beyond him. Before H sank into his depression and started living in bed, his efforts to be cool and hip with them were receiving rolled eye treatment. He really wanted to be their ringleader and I believe he was disappointed to find them growing up into different people and not playing along anymore. Even this past year he was trying to get S12 to repeat after him something, and he'd get madder and madder until S would repeat in his best preteen this-is-so-lame mumble.

I think in my H's case he just had very limited options for how to connect with someone separate from himself. He knew how to command, he knew how to ring-lead, but when they went a different way or had different interests or ideas he was kind of lost.