LIS, I've been thinking about what you wrote. So much of it, I can relate to, too. The perpetual promise for change and then nothing; the finality of it; not having my head in the job game; mostly, just wanting to have peace. I'm glad your family and friends are there to help. I'm not sure mine would be; my H is very charming. Plus, he's not an alcoholic, and I think that label gives other people some instant understanding into your sitch.
I also get the fear of making a mistake. Frankly, I wish I would have been half as fearful when I was getting M'd as I am now. Sometimes people change in M, sometimes they just aren't who you thought they were. My H falls under the second category.
I'm using this time to purge the house, and I see the same thing in the rest of my life -- this hanging onto stuff that's just pointless. Sentimental trash. Something that isn't worth 2 cents to someone else and I'm afraid to throw it away. I'm a bit like a hoarder, like they have on TV but in a mini way. Though if my house was smaller, I would probably be just like them, I simply have room to keep it all. I'm wondering what/why that is, how that carries over to the rest of my life? I can still see thoughts/behaviors where I want to rescue everything/everyone. That's a tough trait to break. It's hard to even want to, because it's a good thing in many ways.
I would love to wipe the slate clean on my life and just pick and choose a few things worth keeping. Then start over fresh with only things in my life that have actual current value or function, living the rest instead. In a way, I need to do that with H, too. I feel like in a way, I'm still trying to hold on to something that is broken and can't be fixed. But like you, I'm afraid of making a mistakes, in case it can still be fixed, somehow....
Hey, CV. Sorry I disappeared on you. I left again... drove off... fast.
It's funny about what you said about purging. I think, it's a subconscious thing, to get to the next step. In the weeks prior to me leaving, I, too, cleaned out so much stuff and ended up paying a lot of money to have it all removed. People kind of asked me about what I was doing. Only I don't really think I could have articulated it at the time. But I was getting ready, I guess. Perhaps that is what you are doing too.
There are never any guarantees, CV. There's no way that anyone can tell you whether you are making a mistake or not. You won't get to find that out until later. Stinks, but just what is. The best we can do is make the best decision we can with the information given. I cried a lot during my 12 hour drive. I cried a lot leading up to that drive. But today, I have some relief that I haven't felt in a long time. It's been a long 2 days as my H has been calling and is remorseful and for the first time he's saying he wants to get treatment. If he does, that is a great thing. However, I fear it also. I am afraid of moving forward, don't get me wrong. BUT, I feel stronger today, more peace today... for the first time in a long time I feel hope for something better... different, but better. If he does indeed go get treatment, I don't know, I know me, I'll feel an obligation to go and help. But, I am becoming more afraid of that dark place that is my life with him. And you know, CV, maybe that is what it will get to with you. The place with your H will get so dark that anything else would be preferable.
That's alright, LIS. I'm back to not spending a lot of time here again, either. It's hard to move forward if you keep looking back, ya know? Too much drudging up of the pain and re-opening wounds and it slows my healing.
H and I haven't had much interaction, but have still managed to have a few spats. We had a short discussion about them last night. He suggested that I should go see his counselor so that I could work on my coping skills, to be able to deal better with my disappointments in him. So I suggested that we could both just focus on coping and forgiving and accepting the other person for what/how they are. And he said sure, as long as we still have sex and do things together and act like a happily-married couple. So in other words, he's suggesting that *I* learn to cope, forgive and accept my disappointments in him, but *I* also give him everything he wants so that he doesn't have any real disappointments to have to cope with. This really is crazy-making. But it's also strange, because I'm starting to feel like an outside observer. Weird.
LIS, should you be talking to your H? I know you said you're not "mean" like that, but his chasing after you can't be good for you. Did he engage with you when you were home? Or does he only react like this when you leave? Especially as you get away and can see the "dark place" behind you, it seems like you would do well to not tempt yourself. And even if your H needs help with treatment, I'm not sure you have to go back to him in order to offer that. I guess in a way I envy where you're at, like you've scaled the fence and now you can be free -- if you just keep going.
CV, I'll tell you what my mom told me and what you already know. If you want to stay married, you can! If you are willing to live with your H's conditions, then you can stay in it. But at what cost? What is it costing you? If it's nothing, then you're golden. But if it's constant darkness, then you are giving too much away. Like the song says, "did they get you to trade... cold comfort for change?"
Don't envy me because it's still a roller coaster ride from he!!. Yesterday was a good day. Today is a bad one. I want to run home. I'm lonely and I'm out of my element and I'm not finding much comfort today... even cold comfort. To answer your question, H would engage when he was sober. However his sober moments became fewer and fewer. And perhaps there's some wisdom to the advice that I shouldn't engage so much, only I can't cut him off. I have no ability to do that to him or just about anyone I care about. It's funny, CV. I didn't sleep at all last night. I was very troubled when I woke up this morning. My H always texts me good morning. This morning was no different. What was weird was that after I texted him good morning back, he called immediately (which he doesn't do). He asked me if I was ok because I didn't seem right. Asked if I was feeling well. And THAT, right there, is what is so hard. There's comfort in someone who reads you so well. And he does. Simply off of one brief exchange, he knew I was not ok. This is painful as he!!. I alternate between hope and hopelessness. I want to feel like I'm moving forward. I never do, though. Sigh.
"He suggested that I should go see his counselor so that I could work on my coping skills, to be able to deal better with my disappointments in him. So I suggested that we could both just focus on coping and forgiving and accepting the other person for what/how they are. And he said sure, as long as we still have sex and do things together and act like a happily-married couple"
So why in the world would you turn down the opportunity to see his counselor? Why not work this out with a counselor together?
And why are you pissed that H has clear boundaries?
Because we've done counseling together for 18 years, literally. It doesn't take. H can't remember anything that was ever discussed that resulted in an action item on his part. There were many, he just doesn't retain them, which means he obviously doesn't do them either. Plus, this is basic stuff. CV: "H promises to do something and then he doesn't do it. I can't count on him for anything and I feel like he's my second child." Counselor: "Well, H, trust and dependability is important in a M. If you say you're going to do something, you need to do it." H: "I know, I know. I will from now on." But then he doesn't. Do I really need to pay someone for that? Again?
As for boundaries, H has none. That's actually one of the things he's supposedly going to counseling for, an issue he has been aware of for years. Just like his inability to match his actions to his words. What you're calling a boundary, I experience as "gimme, gimme, gimme." He does nothing for me in reciprocation for anything he wants from me. Having healthy boundaries means that he recognizes that I'm a separate and individual person, with all that that entails. He doesn't.
H seems to have some boundaries. For instance, he sounds as if he is unwilling to live in a sexless marriage.
But I agree that you BOTH need to work on healthy boundaries.
If you keep doing something in counseling that doesn't work, why not do something different? Get the agreements in writing, work on them together, then sign them with a witness.
FWIW, over-functioning is a symptom of codependency, not something distinct. Perhaps you might try working a program yourself. Stop trying to fix H for awhile. Stop concentrating on his flaws. Work on yourself.
OT, I'm not a psychologist so I won't argue these points. I see my flaws and my H's flaws and how they interact, regardless of what they're called. But I appreciate your clarification.
After I "get the agreements in writing, work on them together, then sign them with a witness," then what? What do I do next when he still hasn't done it? And after I handhold him, remind him, hold up a piece of paper "leveraging" him to do what he committed to, then "tattle on him" to the counselor next time, am I really supposed to desire to have sex with him? How do I want to have anything to do with him when this is what I have to do to get anything out of him? It truly is easier to do it myself (thus the over-functioning), but then I see no point in being M'd.
Ugh... I'm searching through CV's posts but I have the attention span of a 2 year old. What exactly would there be a contract written on? Where's the post where CV's H said that he was free to lie and it was CV's job to accept it and forgive him? Where's the line? I am all for therapy, I really am. But there comes a time when the agreement we need to reach in order to save the marriage is too intolerable. I could stay in my marriage so long as I'm willing to deal with the lying, cheating, drinking and total and complete emotional abandonment during non-sober moments.
