Gonna be different now, (butterfly in hurricane).

[MrBond]

Holly, have you read the whole thread? It doesn't sound like you've understood what's been going on.

"A woman who would keep a child from the father is a bad mother."

Not necessarily.

"She has no right to use said child as a weapon; I don't care how "badly" she thinks she was treated."

She wasn't using their son as a weapon. Go back and re-read the threads from the beginning.

"And to use her dad as a buffer? Yikes."

There was a good reason.

"You guys will need to co-parent at some point and I don't see her being very cooperative."

Again, there was good reason.

"She needs to grow up."

Go back and read the posts.

[movingon-1968]

^^^^ Agree with MrBond.

There's a lot in this story that defies conventional wisdom and just flat doesn't make sense. I know there are two sides to every story; and the truth falls somewhere in the middle. But, with this one, I can't argue with the judges findings so far at all...

[Big Bruce]

Hi all,
Thanks for all your input, but check that :

So today is my first day of "ordered" visits. I had written a very short email asking her to confirm that she would be dropping S.
Her answer is no, I have to come pick him up all the time if I want to see S, because the order gives me extra time, so it has to be used for travelling.
Hello, travelling (20 minutes one way) not only consumes my visitation time, which is limited, but I don't see why the effort shouldn't be shared, and the cost also.
On Thursday, she had agreed in front of our two lawyers, to alternate between us picking ups and dropping offs. Now, she is one more time promising something, and doesn't want to comply !
What do I do now? Tell her :but you promised so, bad girl?

Better, she asked the judge if one Saturday in March she could skip the visit to go see her sister who is expecting soon, the judge asked me if it was ok with me, and I said yes. She told me she would would use her free week-end this very saturday, I said ok. when I asked when she would make up for the time, she said she wouldn't because the order didn't say so. Man, anyone acting in good faith would try to make up for time she's be allowed so she could visit her sister. Not say plain in my face it's a loss for me.
The goal is to smoothen the transition towards 50-50%, not to withold S as much as she can!

Since she is taking it like that, should I tell her that the order granted her one free Saturday in March, not in February?
Dang, at some point we will have to cooperate, it's not about aggravating me as much as she can for Pete's sake.

As for the GU syndrome, she often refers to how she had to take care of the baby by herself, and whines about me not having been interested. Heck, she had 6 months of maternity leave. She stayed home all day with the baby. I was working during the day like a madman, and understandably had less energy in the evening to play bah bah bah with the baby. Ok, I should have made the effort, and tried to make monkey faces at S, or changed his diaper. But I didn't and it's too late now, what is done is done, no need to recall how she had to carry all the weight of motherhood on her all the time. (I know 25yearsmic, it was a critical time of her life, I know..) And consider her motherhood above my fatherhood.

I am really trying to be understanding and decipher the logic of hers, but can't figure it out. What's her goal in wanting sole custody and me not being involved in my S's life? Why not to cooperate with me with S visits? While I was still in France, she said several times for me to stay there. Is she secretly hoping that by making it hard on me I will give up and go back?

Anyone, what does W want?
How do I handle this very angry and resentful woman?

Thanks again,
Bruce

[adinva]

A mother shouldn't keep a child from its father unless there's neglect or abuse involved...and in this W's perception there is indeed. This father didn't know how to care for the child's basic necessities of life, and had never expressed an interest in learning until browbeaten by complete strangers in an online forum. This mother wasn't using the child as a weapon, but this father was...using the child to try to manipulate his wife into coming back to him.

You begrudge your wife a fair portion of your income and try to avoid paying it because she's living with her parents and using them for childcare. You act like your child support payment is income for her when it's actually CHILD SUPPORT, for the child. You act like she and your child together should subsist on much less than what you subsist on because you have a full time job as an engineer. You know, the mother's quality of life is the child's quality of life. And you act like the back amounts that you're paying now, which is because the court thinks you should have paid it before, is part of a windfall to her. The extent to which you paint yourself as a victim - and exaggerate to try to make your case stronger - is astounding.

Financially it hurts to separate a family into two separate parents. But the one-sided way you approach the issues, where it's all about you and your money and your house and your good job, and how undeserving she is because she's just a student and doesn't have a home of her own to live in, just is so off-putting. You'll negotiate back and forth, I would hope, until you wind up somewhere in the middle of what each of you wants. But acting like you're being taken to the cleaners, over back-payments and child support, does not make you look good.

It also really is troublesome, and it's not the first time, that you rail and complain about something and then try to claim the exact opposite is your real position. You are so angry at her, so you want to write her a letter to show you're not angry. That is disingenuous. You fault yourself for having forgiven her so easily, but you continue to blame and malign her. That's lying too. You want to appear a certain way, but the words will be hollow until your thoughts and deeds back them up (and then the words won't be necessary).

I think individual counseling might be a great way to work through your anger in a healthy way, get honest feedback on when you're BS'ing yourself, and develop some real empathy for the woman you believe you love. You've been given a tough hand and it's a sign of strength to get help coping. You've got a huge opportunity for personal growth ahead, if you stop working at winning your wife back and work on healing yourself instead.

[Big Bruce]

For the money, I can't not reply.

She always had access to our joint account and largely used that privilege while in different countries. I wouldn't let my wife without money.
After her bomb, not only I gave her substantial amount of money upon my arrival (which she said she would not check in, but eventually did...), but I also said I would give her whatever she wanted. I even proposed to buy her a crossover car!

On her dropbomb, that you all have read, she says she won't seek part of our assets or maintenance support. She is seeking both now.

In fact in her first petition, it was all about S. She was asking 100% of time with S, and none for me. We replied to that petition, everybody remembers. When she understood that some time would be granted to me, and eventually 50-50%, she amended her petition, in fact three days before the hearing, and added the spousal support thing, as a "retaliation".

She didn't do it because she needs money, she stays at her parents! She doesn't pay rent or childcare.

So, I'm not the stingy one here. She is intent in hitting me in the nose, until I bleed and ask her to make an arrangement Son versus money. (like she tried with her crappy deal dropping the divorce against my time with S).

[Tallula]

^^^^^ THIS!!!

I didn't sleep more than 3 hours in a row until my S was a year old. Gonna take a wild guess that you didn't ever take the night feeding shift.

You are unbelievable. She probably figures you care more about your money than your S. and, from this post alone, I get that feeling too. Wow

[25yearsmlc]

Bruce,

Do I agree with her saying one thing in court and another in private? NO. But document it and tell your L. It will be addressed, just as your TEMPRORARY support orders will be....

Stop acting as if this is the most insane unreasonable thing you've ever seen or heard of. And stop misleading people about the situation. None of us have amnesia (at least not those of us who have been here w/you all along).

Did you READ Adinva's post and then immediately BLURT out your angry thoughts/feelings/ REACTIONS?? (b/c it sure sounded like it--as if you did not "hear" a word she said).

That's not the behavior of a man in his 30s. She was spot on.

You misrepresent things so much, I don't know whether to be insulted b/c you think we're morons,

or concerned that you are able to twist things so much that you actually believe them.

Your support order amount was TEMPORARY, and included back payments...neither of which you volunteered. I think you'd never have told us that if we had not had the legal experiences we have.

You keep forgetting what a neglectful father she was (the GU is the opposite of what happened and for the life of me, you still don't get it!)
You are not behaving more reasonably than she is, btw.

The anger YOU have, even now, amazes me. It's NOT grief. It's furious rage and indignation, and that tells me a lot.

If you were a true victim, the outrage and self righteousness would Not be so flagrant. You're into self pity. Are you an only child or were you spoiled or what? I mean, I don't get it. This cannot be a "cultural" thing.

The way you STILL gloss over and even mock my words about her being a new mother and your mistreatment of her and your son, WHILE you now describe yourself as "working like madman"...WOW...

that type of talk reminds me of when I practiced criminal law.

I defended people accused of crimes, most of whom were guilty. They used to explain or "reason" the way you do, even when it was clear they had started the fight or burglary...

they never felt responsible for the results they created, b/c they did not intend to get caught or hurt someone else, they merely wanted what THEY wanted.. Even after confessing and being convicted and jailed LESS than the typical defendant, some would still tell me that they got a raw deal.

Bruce if you want someone to tell you that you were a GREAT H and FATHER, go talk to your "friends back home", whom you claim say that. Make sure to tell them about the "bah bah bah" comment you make when you imagine interacting with your first born child early in his life...and make sure you mock the "monkey faces" you express such contempt for...

to me it's increasingly obvious how little interest you had in your son THEN..that even now you regard it with disgust.

I fear you don't have much interest in HIM now either. I fear son is something you want to WIN.

I don't sense any joy about your son, from you. Just wanting to "get him" like a battle in a war.

Maybe your friends last year really told you they thought you were just fine and maybe they meant it and didn't say it just to make you feel better (which we are all used to hearing from our family/friends b/c they don't want to see us in pain).

But here, we deal with reality, based on YOUR words, your w's letter & our life experience...

Gabby and Adniva and Bond and others have tried valiantly to wake you up.
I know I've spent far longer on you, without seeing much progress, than anyone else lately. But man, I'm at a loss for words now.

You must shift your paradigm dramatically. You need some help to do this Bruce. You don't seem to have the tools to do it. & That's alright.

Maybe it's a lack of a support system where you are. But please do a workshop or join a support group there, b/c you need help to see your way clear. And whatever you are doing so far is not working.

Check out "Essential Experience" workshop in Philadelphia. They have a good website. Their workshop is life changing and clarifying. You'll get tools for NEW positive behaviors and ways of coping. (Power Of now, Navy Guy and Autumn Leaves have all done it recently. I did it years ago and do "team" for them now).

You're just not objective enough to see how you are too reactive. You're too blind to your own behavior and emotions and how you react to see your way clear.

Bruce, you said you like some extreme sports. Next time you feel brave,

then read Ad's post again and take it in.

Start to see your mission as "becoming the best Bruce that YOU can become".

Then instead of feeling attacked by feedback - learn to see it as valuable intelligence or "reconnaisance" that you need, in order to achieve your mission.

The longer you see yourself as the victim in this, the longer you'll be stuck, miserable, and in denial.

[25yearsmlc]

ps

I'm a lawyer. I've worked full time as a mother, and I've been a stay at home mom and I've been an "in between" part time mom/lawyer.

With a newborn, the only reason I'd stay home is the bonding for the child's sake.

If it were just about ME, I'd take working full time anyday, over caring for a newborn. Especially if I had given birth to the baby, which is exhausting and painful.

At that time, the last thing I'd want to do is care for someone else, let alone someone who sleeps minutes at a time and is fully dependent on ME...but of course, I've said it before and it bores you. Hence your tone of contempt.

To hear you talk about it, or rather, to NOT ever hear you talk about it, it's like you were not even there...you don't seem to know what we are talking about. Or you slept through it all...

At least in the eyes of mothers here, you are living in the Middle Ages.

[25yearsmlc]

^^^^^ THIS!!!

I didn't sleep more than 3 hours in a row until my S was a year old. Gonna take a wild guess that you didn't ever take the night feeding shift.

You are unbelievable. She probably figures you care more about your money than your S. and, from this post alone, I get that feeling too. Wow

I have 2 semi clear memories of the first 6 months of our son's life.

One was of me praying, out loud, for "3 hours of sleep in a row". I felt that if I could just get those hours consecutively, I'd feel so much better, things would be clearer. Pain would be lessened. And I had a husband who helped me!

The other memory was of me putting our son down for a nap and seeing that he might really take a nap...like for an hour or so...So I was faced with a choice:

Should I, 1) take a shower, which I NEEDED, or
2) eat something, which I had NOT done well for days, or
3) sleep, which I desparately craved, or
4) clean up around the house; or

5) if I should get dressed and put some make up on. God only knows how I looked.

I chose to eat something, and then I fell asleep.

That was a really good day... I had options.

[adinva]

Bruce your reply did support the point I was trying to illustrate for you.

You said you would give her whatever she wanted. She wants something now, and now you think it's unreasonable. Your truth is in your thoughts and deeds. I don't think you really want(ed) to give her whatever she wanted unless it was in a bargain to get her back, and I think you would like to sound generous by saying that but not actually be generous.

You're trying to hold her to something she said before she had legal advice, and now she's being informed what her rights and entitlements are you think she's punishing you.

And you keep talking about her living with her parents as if that should eliminate your financial responsibility for her. What you see as a free ride I see as homeless. How can she get on her own two feet with a baby, no dad who she can trust to take him for any extended period of time, only a part time job. She has an overwhelming lot in life right now, and you think she's living the high life and using you as an ATM. Spousal support is to enable your ex to get on her own two feet and be able to get on with a decent life. If she's not spending it on rent and childcare maybe she's saving it to be able to afford to live in the future. You begrudge her that? She is the mother of your child.

Whether she enjoys living with her parents or not, she's pretty trapped right now as a single mother of a baby with a 21 hour a week job. Not even to mention the fact that she gets no downtime - when a mom gets home from work her other workday begins. I have two kids and a part time job, and I work way harder at home than I do at the office, and it's from the moment I wake up until the moment I go to sleep. Her lawyer's job is to try to get her what she needs to get on her feet, and what the law entitles her to.

Like I said, I'm sure her first offer is expected to be met with a counter offer and you wind up somewhere in the middle.

You want to seem like you love her because she knits and you left her alone so as not to interfere with the idyllic mother-child relationship, but the ridicule that came out about the boo-boo-boo and monkey faces tells a more compelling truth.

I get so riled up by some of your posts that I worry I'm not being constructive in my comments, other than hopefully to shake you awake. However, I really do think that if people here can reframe your situation so that you can really get past thinking you're a victim and can really get over the bitterness and unfairness you seem to be stuck in, you will be much better off. You couldn't possibly ever hope to reconcile while you still think that way about things, and even if you never do reconcile, you can avoid being that guy - the one who's bitter and angry about the ex who took him to the cleaners. The only difference is going to happen between your ears.