almost 3 months....seems like eternity

[25yearsmlc]

I haven't posted for a few days. to be honest, I have really been thinking about my goals. I am not sure if I want to continue to live like this. yesterday, my wife was out visiting with friends on our property while I was trying to do the same. We avoided each other and kept our distance, but it was a bit awkward. Daughter was not happy when it was time for us to leave, because she didn't understand that today was "daddy's day to have her". W was making dinner for our friends and their kids. Daughter and I were not invited. That is really not fair to my little girl!

It was YOUR day w/d. Your w did not want to invite You, or didn't feel she could.

But we all know if she'd asked your d to be with HER, instead of you on your day with d, you'd be here fuming about YOUR time with d being eroded or cut into...

man, you are so used to being angry it's like you are not comfortable in another mode. Learn other modes...



Therefore, I've been thinking more and more about asking her to move on, regardless of her financial situation she just needs to find her own place to be. Thus far, she has made zero effort to establish her own living situation and medical insurance.

And how long has this "nightmare" been going on? (How long was she married to the "hypercritical" man?) Do you see other people's signature blocks and how long some of us were here before we changed enough to make things better?

You've been here since late November. Not even 6 months. I have a post for you to read. IT's from a WAW to an LBS h. A h who actually had changed a lot...b/c he wanted to know why his WAW had not returned to him, since he'd changed and all...

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that...

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.

So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and or OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win".

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
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SuckerPunch, any of this^^ seem applicable to your sitch? It does to me.

It doesn't seem fair to me, that I have to feel awkward in my own home/property/business and continue to pay her freight at the same time. This was her choice, and it may be time for her to feel the actual consequences.

and YOU had nothing to do with her choice, right? She just went nuts and left...I guess you forgot AnotherStander's words...so fast!

I don't want to beat a dead horse. I just think your present approach consists of more of the same old you.

Where's the change? You are "uncomfortable" in your own property, as if she isn't aware of what she might lose.

The real question is why she'd give so much up, "just" in the hopes of a happier r with someone. I suspect she hoped you would have an awakening and maybe you began to

but when it got too long for you or you didn't get immediate results, you threw in the towel.

In my opinion you are confirming for her that she cannot find happiness with you and her choice to leave may be right.




I think having no contact with her, not seeing her drive up, not accidentally running into her in the driveway, etc. will make my healing process much easier as well. The only side effect from this will be her anger for throwing her out on the street, which will more than likely hurt our chances of R'ing. Truthfully, I don't foresee us getting back together based on her attitude since day one, so the worry of reconciling may be a moot point. I do not see an opertunity where her feelings towards our marriage will change, at least not any time soon. Unfortunately, I am not willing to wait much longer given our current living situation. I definitely do not want my estragend W living over the top of my business with literally thousands of my customers seeing and knowing what is going on all season long.

The only change I have noticed lately is W has been sharing a little more with me when she calls to speak with D. The other day she was telling me about going snow skiing with friends that she met on new years eve. (I have been asking her to go skiing with D and I for a few years, she has always declined.) I listened to her story, and I was upbeat and interested, but the whole time I'm thinking to myself "goodbye goodbye, I really don't want to hear what a fun time you're having without us".

Gee, you don't sound "Upbeat and interested"...you sound weirdly resentful of any time she has when she's not miserable. That is a pattern for you. If she is happy and she's not with you, you resent it. That is sad and not loving.

Last week she phoned and shared with me that she passed her final on her insurance test and scored a 91. All she has left is the state exam. She already has a job to slip right into full time. Again, I was upbeat and interested. I expressed that I was proud of her.

The last few phone conversations have gone like this. I don't understand the reason she wants to share now. Perhaps the pursue/retreat dynamic, but I am not sure. I have definitely not been reaching out to her. unfortunately, her desire to initiate contact or engage me stops there. We only communicate when she is phoning to speak with D or about D.

Since it was mainly your behavior that caused the demise of the marriage, why would she pursue you? Do do you still not see your role in this? I mean, you once admitted it but I'm not sure you still see it that way.

It gets hard to be responsible for our choices more than a few painful hours...doesn't it?

last night I had a poor sleep, worrying about my marriage situation and trying to get a handle on her mindset, which I know is impossible. It was the first bad sleep I have had in a while, no doubt because of the contact with W during the day.

As a last attempt, I felt I would offer her an opertunity to be included in an activity with D and I. We all have the entire day off, today. I texted W and asked if she would like to spend the day with us. She texted back that she was trying to sleep off a headache and that we should go on without her. She, "might call when she woke up". Well, that was it for me. I WILL NOT be offering any more activities. I see no reason to put forth the effort anymore.

Wow, way to show loving concern and empathy for the wife....you blew an opportunity to show the new you.

But let's ask the hardest question, SP...IS THERE A NEW YOU??


--- I have worked on my own issues and feel I am making good gains.

where? Seriously, I'm being sincere. How are you not the same guy you were before the BD??

I still need to turn them into a permanent part of me, but that will come in time. I will not stop working on myself, and I will continue to journal and share on here. Divorce Busters is a part of me now

[swoop]

I see some evidence of growth, but it seems to me, when you get stressed or things are not smooth and easy with your wife or if you don't feel hopeful, you revert to some very negative traits.]/quote] you are right. I have grown a fair amount, but I still need work. Reverting to those traits is one of the things I need to master. Overall, I am a better man. This much I know.

[quote=25yearsmlc]
those traits are NOT small flaws to work on. It means it was damn hard to be around you.
What's it mean to "try to work on it"? Are you working on it or not?

yes, I am absolutely working on it, and I feel I have made some good progress. Without a doubt, I guess I could have been damn hard to be around at times...."SOME" times. This negative trait does not paint an entire picture of me. I also posess some very positive traits as well.

Are you Reading up and getting counselling, or going to anger management or what? And how is that going? B/C to me, you sound angry and punitive pretty often.

I am still using my DB coach. I am reading a fair amount. I have discontinued seeing my IC, as I was seeing no measurable help and the cost was significant. I am not angry all that often, and when I am more of a passive agressive type. I do not lash out violently or phsycially by any means. I will agree that I can be punitive fairly often. These are just some of the things I am working on to better myself.

Granted you've only been here a few months but dang, please take in what we are saying. Did you truly read Another Stander's and others posts to you?

I really do consider everyones input. I try as best as I can to comprehend it and absorb it.

You cannot be "hypercritical" and be loving at the same time. It's not loving behavior. Period.

Perhaps you are right, but at the same time they are two completely different behaviors. I don't fully beleive that one cancels out the other. Regardless, I am working on being less critical, especially pertaining to things that should not matter in the big scheme of things.

I think most people would consider us the sarcastic bickering couple. We nit pick each other constantly..........
Really, I guess our biggest problem is just engaging each other and communicating our needs and feelings. We tend to walk on each others feelings instead of lifting them up.


My wife never belittles me or yells. She has simply stated that she thinks we have lost our connection and we are now incompatible.

See the use of the word "we" and "our", and how you describe many of the traits of a "couple" in your wording...but it's NOT her who belittles or yells...in fact she "never" does that. Only you do.

No, she actual does her fair share of nit picking. She argues. She bickers. She is sarcastic, and she walks on my feelings because she is not any better than I am at communicating....all of the things I mentioned.

And not telling her she's pretty enough, means you don't compliment her or give her words of affirmation. (Probably b/c you are hypercritical). If words of affirmation are one of her love languages, then that tank of hers is empty too. Do you know her love languages? I hope you'll read the book "The Five Love Languages" if you have not already.

You are absolutely right. I have not read the book, but I have taken the quiz. I believe my wifes main LL to be words of affirmation. I have been doing some soul searching as to why I did not express my love for her verbally more often. The best I can come up with is my LL is also words of affirmation and perhaps I was score keeping FAR too much. I am really focusing on expressing myself to others in a more positive way. This is where I really need some work.

First, regarding wifes finances. For the last 6 years, since D was born, my W has done in home childcare. She made a pretty tidy little income doing this, and it allowed her to be a SAHM and work as well. We shared all of our home expenses. Her childcare option ended right before BD, leaving her without work literally when we separated. She had been seaking work religously leading up to this point. She had a couple very disapointing interviews where she was not hired and she thought she was a shoe in. She was very discouraged by this. She did begin working a PT job at an insurance company where she makes 500 a month shortly after BD. She is working very hard towards becoming a license agent. She tests this month.

From your words here, she is working very hard...but now, you just have to spin it negatively...and mind read and it's not ever in a positive way. This is a serious pattern of yours, NOT to pass on to your d...

While I do 100% agree with you in regards to that beng a bad trait to pass on to my D...I do not fully understand what you mean. How am I spinning it into something negative? I don't fully understand what you mean.

then what comes next, below?

I think INSERT A NEGATIVE REASON HERE....that is a partial reason why she has been friendly and quiet in regards to the living situation. She knows if she stirred the divorce pot, I would ask her to leave.


Because that's just the type of man I am...I'm NOT punitive or critical & I don't have to be "right."....oh wait that is you...

This is something I am struggling with right now. WHY wouldn't I ask someone to leave who was wanting to divorce me? By not being part of the marriage or relationship, because she chooses to leave the family unit.... her choice to do so, why exactly would I be punitive by not supporting her?

Now, I do actually want to hurt her financially. Not because I want her life to be difficult, but mostly to give her a wakeup call of what is to come.
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wow...Just, wow...2 things leap to my mind...1) it's NOT a spouse's job to teach a lesson/show her the consequences of her choices. Life does that. Not a loving spouse...

2) THINK... when HER costs go up for living on your family's land or wherever she gets it cheaply now, then YOUR costs for support will go up too. She's not just saving herself money by those choices; she's saving YOU and "the family unit" you care so much about, money.

1) I agree with you. I was wrong for thinking it was up to me to show her.

2) I disagree, simply based on what my likely support would be based on divorce and our finances. I would be literally saving hundreds every month. Who knows, maybe I would even be able to pay all of my own bills that I am falling behind in currently????

You say "We live a very nice life..." but who was living that "nice life"? Not her.

No absolutely her, and me as well. She had great working conditions here. She was paid a salary which she was not qualified for. She made her own hours. She worked from our home, often in her PJ's while watching TV or entertaining. She had freedom to spend as much time with our D as she would like, even during business days or hours. We both drive nice cars, beautiful home. She was able to come and go as she pleased. I never held her back from doing the things she enjoyed. That is a nice life in my book. After/IF we divorce, life WILL be considerably different for both of us.

As for "things changing" for her financially the minute she splits, and your desire for that,

my question is, and therefore...what? She'll be on the streets so then she'll run back to you faster?

Do you think if those were the reasons, & you were the same man she left, that she'd come back and stay??

No absolutely not. Again, my reasoning to ask her to move is for MY benefit, so I can heal, so I can pay my bills, so my daughter is not caught in the middle, nor our friends. It is not a tactic to get her back.

Here's the deal, as I see it.

The only way she'll come home and stay, is

IF/WHEN she believes marriage to you can be better/different than before.

How are you, at your core, any better/different than before? How have you SHOWN her that marriage to you, from this day forward, can be happier?

Again, I agree with you. That is likely the only reason she would want to return. in regards to how I have changed, I am still a work in progress. I am getting better and working more every day. As you know it takes time to make these things permanent, and I am staying focused for the long haul. I am not really sure how I have shown her that things can be better. To be honest, I haven't really tried to show her. I guess, during our conversations she will hear me being less critical, more friendly in my tone. She has undoubtedly noticed that I am phsyically better looking. I am taking more care of myself and dressing better. She knows I am attending church and socilizing more. She has literally mentioned how much I have stepped up my game as a parent, and I was a pretty good parent before this! I think she would see all of those things as a positive, but I am not sure.

How is that "personal growth" thing going? You know, the part where you work on YOU and your flaws? Stop the negative mind reading at once.

If a bad thing is going to happen or the other shoe will drop, LET IT. Don't expect it so much that you make it happen.

I need more work on negative mind reading. I still do that alot.

Most of your comments about your wife are still demeaning, critical or angry.

You hurt her a lot already over the years...isn't that clear to you by now? Did you ever truly get that, and sincerely apologize for it?

I have apologized for it, and I did get it. I did not realize that I was still expressing myself towards her in a demeaning, critical or angry way. I clearly need to work on that. Thank you for pointing it out.

You also discuss her as if she's "just crazy" like other [b]typical WAWs.[/i].
In fact you express your anger a lot here. That's only fine if it's venting AND that venting ends...but what some folks call "venting" is really just spiralling and festering

so if you don't have a productive way to PROCESS AND LOSE THE ANGER, (for which you need new tools!)

then what's there for her to return to, that she didn't just leave?

And how is this showing her a fair or loving man? is this how you want to treat the mother of your child?

No I do not wish to treat my W this way. I need MORE work.

What happened to the goal of YOU CHANGING YOU, and becoming a loving h to her? What happened to "Becoming a man only a fool would leave..."?

I am trying to get there...I really am.


25 yearsmlc, Thank you SOOOOOOO much for your insightful look into me. It really took me aback at how well you see it. I truly am doing my best, but having someone with an outside, unbiased opinion like your own is a priceless tool for self growth. A lot of these things i simply do not see by looking in the mirror. Your words help me considerably. I cannot say "thank you" enough for the time and effort you spent. With that said, I really need to get back to work...on myself

[swoop]

[quote=suckerpunch]I haven't posted for a few days. to be honest, I have really been thinking about my goals. I am not sure if I want to continue to live like this. yesterday, my wife was out visiting with friends on our property while I was trying to do the same. We avoided each other and kept our distance, but it was a bit awkward. Daughter was not happy when it was time for us to leave, because she didn't understand that today was "daddy's day to have her". W was making dinner for our friends and their kids. Daughter and I were not invited. That is really not fair to my little girl!

It was YOUR day w/d. Your w did not want to invite You, or didn't feel she could.

But we all know if she'd asked your d to be with HER, instead of you on your day with d, you'd be here fuming about YOUR time with d being eroded or cut into...

man, you are so used to being angry it's like you are not comfortable in another mode. Learn other modes...

Actually that whole thing was pertaining to my D. I harbored no anger at all. Perhaps I am just not properly expressing myself in words. What I tried to say was, It was unfair for D to be put in that situation. She wanted to spend time with her friends, with her mommy, with her daddy. There was no real way around that, given the close proximity to where we live and sociailze. I guess we all could have spent the time together, but that was not an option put on the table. I don't know what else to say about it.We literally live 500 feet apart. D knows that.

You've been here since late November. Not even 6 months. I have a post for you to read. IT's from a WAW to an LBS h. A h who actually had changed a lot...b/c he wanted to know why his WAW had not returned to him, since he'd changed and all...[/color]

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that...

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.

So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and or OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win".

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
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SuckerPunch, any of this^^ seem applicable to your sitch? It does to me.

It absolutely does. Thank you for sharing. It sheds more insight on what I need to work on more.

It doesn't seem fair to me, that I have to feel awkward in my own home/property/business and continue to pay her freight at the same time. This was her choice, and it may be time for her to feel the actual consequences.

and YOU had nothing to do with her choice, right? She just went nuts and left...I guess you forgot AnotherStander's words...so fast!

I did not forget the words, and they carry a lot of weight with me. I have owned my role in the breakdown of our M. However, my W also played a role, one equal to or worse than mine in actuality. While I was willing and wanting to work on our M, wife chose to leave without putting in an effort. Call it what you want, paint it how you may. That is how it happened. If W would have made a some effort to mend the fences before flat giving up, we would have a very different situation right now.

I don't want to beat a dead horse. I just think your present approach consists of more of the same old you.

Where's the change? You are "uncomfortable" in your own property, as if she isn't aware of what she might lose.

The real question is why she'd give so much up, "just" in the hopes of a happier r with someone. I suspect she hoped you would have an awakening and maybe you began to, but when it got too long for you or you didn't get immediate results, you threw in the towel.

In my opinion you are confirming for her that she cannot find happiness with you and her choice to leave may be right.

I haven't changed my DBing approach, other than going a little darker. I don't really know why you would suspect that things haven't changed? Perhaps they haven't. to be honest, you are really opening my eyes with your posts. I really do need to do some more inner searching and re-thinking of myself. I hope to do that.

I think having no contact with her, not seeing her drive up, not accidentally running into her in the driveway, etc. will make my healing process much easier as well. The only side effect from this will be her anger for throwing her out on the street, which will more than likely hurt our chances of R'ing. Truthfully, I don't foresee us getting back together based on her attitude since day one, so the worry of reconciling may be a moot point. I do not see an opertunity where her feelings towards our marriage will change, at least not any time soon. Unfortunately, I am not willing to wait much longer given our current living situation. I definitely do not want my estragend W living over the top of my business with literally thousands of my customers seeing and knowing what is going on all season long.

The only change I have noticed lately is W has been sharing a little more with me when she calls to speak with D. The other day she was telling me about going snow skiing with friends that she met on new years eve. (I have been asking her to go skiing with D and I for a few years, she has always declined.) I listened to her story, and I was upbeat and interested, but the whole time I'm thinking to myself "goodbye goodbye, I really don't want to hear what a fun time you're having without us".
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Gee, you don't sound "Upbeat and interested"...you sound weirdly resentful of any time she has when she's not miserable. That is a pattern for you. If she is happy and she's not with you, you resent it. That is sad and not loving.

you could be very correct in this. I do not know why I feel this way, but I can't see feeling any different. I will be the first to admit, it does make me feel bad when she is happy doing things that I expressed a want to do with her in the past. It just doesn't make me feel warm inside that my W is happy to share fun new things with me, knowing that I am hurt and unhappy that I cannot do them as well....I don't know what else to make of this.

Last week she phoned and shared with me that she passed her final on her insurance test and scored a 91. All she has left is the state exam. She already has a job to slip right into full time. Again, I was upbeat and interested. I expressed that I was proud of her.

The last few phone conversations have gone like this. I don't understand the reason she wants to share now. Perhaps the pursue/retreat dynamic, but I am not sure. I have definitely not been reaching out to her. unfortunately, her desire to initiate contact or engage me stops there. We only communicate when she is phoning to speak with D or about D.
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Since it was mainly your behavior that caused the demise of the marriage, why would she pursue you? Do do you still not see your role in this? I mean, you once admitted it but I'm not sure you still see it that way.

It gets hard to be responsible for our choices more than a few painful hours...doesn't it?

It is funny that you say this because I have been thinking about it ALOT. Originally after BD, I thought it was all my fault. I had this image of my W being a perfect being, flawless by design. Since then, I see more clearly. She is indeed as much to blame for the demise of our marriage as I am. She definitely did not play a role of innocense in this. With that said, DBing tells me that I have to pull back, detach, GAL, act as if. I am not SUPPOSED to pursue her. Where does that leave me?

As a last attempt, I felt I would offer her an opertunity to be included in an activity with D and I. We all have the entire day off, today. I texted W and asked if she would like to spend the day with us. She texted back that she was trying to sleep off a headache and that we should go on without her. She, "might call when she woke up". Well, that was it for me. I WILL NOT be offering any more activities. I see no reason to put forth the effort anymore.

Wow, way to show loving concern and empathy for the wife....you blew an opportunity to show the new you.

I repsonded to her by saying I hope she feels better. I furthered it by bringing dinner to her apartment so W would not have to cook tonight. I vented here, but I think I was showing some empathy and caring towards her. How can I have handled it differently?

But let's ask the hardest question, SP...IS THERE A NEW YOU??


--- I have worked on my own issues and feel I am making good gains.

where? Seriously, I'm being sincere. How are you not the same guy you were before the BD??

Well, I am definitely calmer. I am definitely less critical, or at least I am aware enough to remind myself to be less critical. I am much better at showing appreciation for people. I don't know, I just feel that I am a better man, and becoming even better each day. Before BD, I never even took a look in the mirror in regards to my inner self. Just ACKNOWLEDGING that I have things to work on is a huge step in the right direction for me.

[labug]

my W also played a role, one equal to or worse than mine in actuality. While I was willing and wanting to work on our M, wife chose to leave without putting in an effort.

Maybe your W thinks all those years you were demanding and hypercritical she was putting in an effort. Eventually she had had enough and then suddenly you wanted to work on the marriage.

That's why I wrote this: A headache seems like a little thing to kick her out over but I guess that's what the WA is reacting to when they BD, little drips of water over time and finally the dam breaks.

For years your actions were like the water drip and then one day your W decided she was done. Now you've stockpiled all these hurts and one little incident (the headache) and now you're done.

Now you're dragging up a bunch of stuff from the past, she never really worked, wasn't qualified for the salary, partied all day when she was supposed to be working, day care wasn't really a job. We cry foul when the WAS does this, why is it OK for a LBS to do it? The past is the past, if you didn't bring it up as a problem then, it's not a problem now.

And that's fine but everything you bring up is within your control to change and most of it isn't about her.
It's all about your anger and your need to be right and your fear that you might somehow be taken advantage of, she might get one over on you.

I would guess you were hypercritical because you were afraid your W would embarrass you in some way.

You don't want to be what you perceive as humiliated. That's your issue, in your control.

[swoop]

Maybe your W thinks all those years you were demanding and hypercritical she was putting in an effort. Eventually she had had enough and then suddenly you wanted to work on the marriage.

I think you are correct. I believe this is exactly how my wife feels. She has expressed this very thing.

And that's fine but everything you bring up is within your control to change and most of it isn't about her.
It's all about your anger and your need to be right and your fear that you might somehow be taken advantage of, she might get one over on you.

I would guess you were hypercritical because you were afraid your W would embarrass you in some way.

You don't want to be what you perceive as humiliated. That's your issue, in your control.

I am not so sure about this one. I have been hypercritical for a very long time, long before W came into the picture. It is actually a family trait I beleieve. However, the fear of humiliation or failure is likely what drives it, but I am not sure.

[AnotherStander]

Wow, 25's post was like a 2x4 to MY gut!! A lot of that could have been addressed directly to me and definitely gives me things to consider in my own sitch.

As a last attempt, I felt I would offer her an opertunity to be included in an activity with D and I. We all have the entire day off, today. I texted W and asked if she would like to spend the day with us. She texted back that she was trying to sleep off a headache and that we should go on without her. She, "might call when she woke up". Well, that was it for me. I WILL NOT be offering any more activities. I see no reason to put forth the effort anymore.

Remember what Michele says in DR, have no expectations about these invitations!! It is perfectly fine to invite the WAS along to an activity that you are already planning, but if she doesn't go, then no big deal, because you ARE GOING ANYWAY. You have got to get to the point where you truly don't care whether she goes or not. You invite her, if she says no then you shrug your shoulders and go and enjoy yourself anyway. That doesn't mean you have to invite her to every single thing you do, but it's OK to invite her now and then. Also, she may legitimately have had a headache. If she really did, do you think it was fair to her for you to be PO'd about her not going? Would you even want her to go if she had a splitting headache?

[25yearsmlc]

Maybe your W thinks all those years you were demanding and hypercritical she was putting in an effort. Eventually she had had enough and then suddenly you wanted to work on the marriage.

I think you are correct. I believe this is exactly how my wife feels. She has expressed this very thing.

THEN LISTEN TO HER...STOP COMING UP WITH A REVISED VERSION OF YOUR MARRIAGE IN WHICH SHE IS "GUILTIER" THAN YOU, B/C THAT'S MORE OF YOUR SCORECARD & FROM WHAT YOU SAID HERE EARLIER, IT'S NOT AN ACCURATE ONE..SO YOU ARE NOT HELPING YOUR CAUSE WITH IT.

And that's fine but everything you bring up is within your control to change and most of it isn't about her.
It's all about your anger and your need to be right and your fear that you might somehow be taken advantage of, she might get one over on you.

I would guess you were hypercritical because you were afraid your W would embarrass you in some way.

You don't want to be what you perceive as humiliated. That's your issue, in your control.

I am not so sure about this one. I have been hypercritical for a very long time, long before W came into the picture. It is actually a family trait I beleieve. However, the fear of humiliation or failure is likely what drives it, but I am not sure.

I don't care what your justification for being a critical person is. It means you criticize other people and that's not kind. It's the opposite of kindness.

You seem to think it's the moral equivalent of a preference for broccoli. It's not. It's UNKIND behavior and it wears people down and it wears people out.

It kills love.

So if you want to save the marriage, or just become a better man, then stop your focus on HER behavior and all your judgemental attitude about it. Every time you get the urge to bash her (or however you characterize it), then get out the mirror and take the plank out first.

Plus, you admit you have NOT shown her any of your changes...WTH?

Then you blame her for 'choosing to leave" and "not working" on the m, as if she has evidence of your changing...which you admit she does not. So to HER, you still are not working on the marriage, at least not much.

And you seem to suggest she never warned you that it hurts to be criticized. (You mean to say you didn't know it hurt her feelings? Seriously? What'd you think, that she liked it?)

And you admit that you are still "thrifty" with the compliments, even after she said it hurt her feelings you rarely said a kind word to her. Yes it is a scorecard thing. You sooo miss the boat here. You think somehow complimenting her weakens you or somehow gives her something FROM YOU...but it "generates a return", SP. It does "pay off" if that is what you seek. For God's sake, the lack of affirming words has always puzzled me.

It always improves m's. Often it also improves how the recipient expresses love b/c you model it for them. You make it "safer" for them to compliment you...you show her love, she gets it, and then she expresses hers more too...

Ironically you mentioned here, almost as a complaint, that she is beautiful and other men will be interested in her. That she "won't have to pursue" and she does not pursue. Yet you want her to pursue you and this is despite seeing no change in you AND having a good reason for leaving and not even blaming you much. Just saying you two "lost the connection" and are not compatible. Now to hear you tell it, it's HER FAULT...and she had no reason for leaving...wth??
It's like you have amnesia...

Since she is beautiful, Do you TELL HER that she is beautiful? I don't mean "now & then", but often? And you mentioned earlier, (but rarely since) that she is "very loyal" and that she is "an excellent mother"...so, do you value her loyalty and her mothering? Do you tell her this often?

To hear you talk about her child care, you'd think she was eating bon bons all day watching TV "in her PJs". So, What's caring for your d like, for YOU?

Do you think it's a breeze to do all day? Oh, and then add a few other kids to the mix...is that really EASY to you? Have you ever done it? I couldn't.

What's with complaining, now, that her salary was too high "for HER"?

Oh, it's more of you cricitizing. Man, I hope you open your eyes SOON.

I worry that you won't just lose her and the marriage. I worry about what you will attract & keep, in your future with this habit of yours.

Good luck SP, truly, I hope the best for you. I have no idea what your childhood was like so I get that I might be missing out on huge deficits in your past. That must be where you learned to criticize. But here, you seem to be saying your family is fine.

So I'm confused about how you really feel regarding what you learned from them. Sometimes we have to let go of some of what our parents taught us. It isn't working for us in our lives.

For instance, My dad was a raging alcoholic for a chunk of my life. I learned from him some things NOT to do...my mom would whisper her negative comments to us, never directly addressing my dad. I learned from her that passive aggressive behavior is NOT effective.

I loved them both. They both had great traits as well as their flaws. But those negative behaviors did not help me live well or happily. I had to unlearn them. I had to replace them with healthy behaviors and I did that with tools I got in an Essential Experience workshop, along with some good therapy.

Good luck!

[swoop]

Remember what Michele says in DR, have no expectations about these invitations!! It is perfectly fine to invite the WAS along to an activity that you are already planning, but if she doesn't go, then no big deal, because you ARE GOING ANYWAY. You have got to get to the point where you truly don't care whether she goes or not. You invite her, if she says no then you shrug your shoulders and go and enjoy yourself anyway. That doesn't mean you have to invite her to every single thing you do, but it's OK to invite her now and then. Also, she may legitimately have had a headache. If she really did, do you think it was fair to her for you to be PO'd about her not going? Would you even want her to go if she had a splitting headache?

That is just it. I wasn't PO'd. I have invited her on several occasions, and she has chosen not to attend most of them. I am not mad. I wasn't short with her. I did shrug it off and we did carry on with our plans. I was simply expressing that I would rather not invite someone who always, or at least usually, declines my invitations. I would assume the same attitude towards a casual friend. It is very common interaction among people, at least I feel that to be the case.

[25yearsmlc]

when I say "the lack of affirming words puzzles me...it always improves m's"...

I mean to say that giving affirmations always improves marriage. The lack of it surprises me.

I think it's either a deliberate withholding of affection or compliments, b/c of scorekeeping or b/c it's seen as some sort of weak move. So it may be a power play.

The way you speak of the r's in your family and the way you measure things I do see a lot of power plays and maneuvering and I just wonder where you got that outlook.

Not everything is about power SP. Marriages ought not to be about power, for sure.

[swoop]

Sooooooo,

I got this email just now from my W. I Would like some input on it, as I feel it probably pertains to what everyone is saying right now about my sitch and how I am handling myself....


Thank you for the invite. I appreciate the attempt. I haven't been sleeping well and I am not feeling great. I am sure it's just stress pilling up and I will be fine.
Your invite does leave me a little confused. I am sure you may not notice, but in front of other people you really distance yourself and act like you can't stand me. You say you want to be friends and then you send me this horrible text. You throw these get togethers, invite my family and friends and then the only reason I get an invite is because I put you on the spot and ask you if (Daughter) is welcome up there if she sees her friends. Then you tell everyone you invited me and I choose not to go. ( You know I wont take a last minute invite like that from anyone). I just am really confused by you and your actions.
I would like to be friends but I don't want to be hurt by anyone else.I am extremely guarded right now. I second guess and question everything & everyone.
I don't know how to be friends with you when I don't feel the friendship is sincere


Here is my reply,


I would like to speak with you about this. I have a lot of the same feelings as you do....i really would like to get passed this portion of our lives. The confusion and stress is breaking me down as well....it shouldn't be happening to us. The lack of trust, the alienation, the miss-understandings.....its all too much. Everything is so out of control and i don't like it. It sounds like you don't either. If you would like, we can get together sometime....let me know


after this we exchanged a couple more texts and agreed to meet for coffee on Wednesday. This will be our first one on one encounter since BD. I am not even sure what to discuss....