Gonna be different now, (butterfly in hurricane).

[eyesopen]

Hi Guys,
So I try my best and put a band-aid on, and obviously it isn't enough for such a big wound, so she inflicts me a deeper wound by separating, to make sure I'm wounded too and making sure that nobody heals, and that our S, the only one who has nothing to do with all of it, reaps the consequences of both our being immature...

Still the victim.^^^^ Bruce you don't have to agree with what she does, but it is so important to understand that she believes that what she is doing is the best option for her and her son right know. As human beings we should not ask each other to do anything less than what they believe is right. That doesn't mean her feelings can't change. Until you stop playing the victim, the dynamics of your r will not change.


How should I appear Thursday, interested by only S, or should I propose for W to see a counsellor, even if only ONE appointment?

Please do not do this.^^^^ What I said above goes with this. She does not think she has done anything wrong. So why would she need to see a counselor right now. I do hope someday the two of you will see a counselor together. Although it would need to be at her request, not yours.

Thank you for your insight,
Bruce.

[25yearsmlc]

Hi Guys,
W is not guilty, nor am I. There's no guilt in the process, only responsible people. I take responsibility for what happened, if I am the leader in the couple, when it fails, it is the leader who takes the blame.


This^^ is NOT you "taking responsibility". It's you calling yourself a "leader", which you were not, and then acting as if the 'position' of being a leader, like the Captain of the ship that someone else sank, means you are responsible.

But You are responsible for your choices. You chose to engage in lousy behavior and it lasted a long time. I reject the excuse that you were "raised that way".

I just went to a workshop with a fellow DBer. That DBer was raised seeing horrible abuse on almost a nightly basis. HE does not engage in it.

I was raised by a raging alcoholic father, who held a powerful government position. I don't do what he did at night. I know better. So please, Don't even go there Bruce.

Some of what you did is in the "nearly unforgivable" range for me when it comes to a new mother. I've said that before and you've ignored it.

Being a new mother, let alone in a foreign country, is a BIG BIG deal. I cannot stress this enough. Stop glossing over it. You do that at your own peril.

For the last time, she was at her most vulnerable. But For over a year, you grossly mistreated her AND the baby.

Then She left so that mistreatment would end. She wanted to be cared for by her family back home (b/c you, as her family, did not do so). If a small part of her also thought "now HE will see how it feels to be abandoned", so be it, I'd understand.

She did NOT leave to inflict pain on you. Only a child would believe that.

Now, after she solely raised the child, you call her a "THIEF" for wanting half of what was gained in the marriage. Not what you brought into the marriage, but what you two purchased while married. That's what most jurisdictions dictate. She wanted LESS before, mostly b/c she wanted less conflict with you. Now she wants what the law provides. How does that make HER so wrong?

In the eyes of the law, and God, and YOU, you were "made one", by marriage, not two. So Stop whining that she was once so angry at you that she said she wanted nothing from you. That only meant she wanted to be away from you so badly that she wanted no discussion. But she awakened.

And btw, I have to mention how hard/impossible it is for most Americans to get jobs in France when they were not invited by a corporation in the first place. Your job/company invited you to Canada. But My cousin has been in France & other European nations for years, and is still not a legal citizen and she can't yet teach. French citizens there get priority. She's married to a French man (a great h and father, btw.) and they have a child. She still faces obstacles to working.

So, is the image you now present of her, suggests only YOU worked...what did she do? Did she sit at home lazily eating bon bons? I don't think so. You even stated that she works hard.

So, Do you NOW see her as a parasite on you, who now wants to steal from you?

Please Don't forget, you insisted on living in YOUR country...she agreed to join you, leaving her family & friends & nation behind, and deferring her career, to be with you b/c she loved you that much...Surely that counts for something?

Recently, I think you made an attempt to get her to feel jealous that she wasn't with you, (b/c you were going to buy a house - so she'd want to be with you and out of her parent's house,) but then your ruse misfired.

Instead of her being envious of the home you were to buy & wanting to join you, She wants half the money instead, which is EXACTLY what I'd have told her to get, if I were her L, and which I told you.

Bruce, think back. Why'd you even ask US for advice about the house???

You thought she'd be impressed by your purchase of a home there--- b/c I can think of NO other reason for you to tell her your plans.

Dig deep. Who cares if she said she didn't want anything before?

Why did you tell her NOW, that you were buying a house?

I think I know why...Do you now see why you told her?

It's been a long time I stopped listening to my friends, I prefer to chose the path of love, even if it is met with rejection by W. But I won't grow weary, because while I was a sinner, God loved me and didn't give up.

I know where W is coming from, emotionnaly. I understand. I just don't agree with her decision, that's all.

I don't believe you know where she is coming from. I truly don't. If you did, you would not summarily dismiss her reason for leaving. You can say you want another chance. We'd all get that. We've all been there.

But your cavalier dismissal of her opinion reveals much. You "just don't agree w/her decision" means, to me, you don't think she's got a reasonable point of view. And let's face it, you don't.

You have, repeatedly, described her as mentally unstable (& "not right in the head" but you give us no evidence to support that, except that she left you AND you don't recall her complaints about you so she must be lying...).

Bruce, I cannot tell you how unattractive you sound, when you say that.

It sounds patronizing, judgemental and hypocritical.

You have felt suicidal at times and you sometimes wallow at length, in self pity. It keeps you stuck in self righteous victimhood. Is that mentally healthy behavior?

I don't want to hurt you. I know you are in pain and it's a humbling thing, but I sure wish you'd wake up. Sometimes humility is our greatest teacher. It can be.


I acknowledge her pain, her wanting her needs met, and her pulling out of an unsatisfactory marriage from a selfish husband. She wanted something I didn't give her, and as a consequence she gets rid of me.

This failing to meet her needs was a process, which grew after the birth of the child you openly resented and ignored. It was not a quick event.

So I try my best and put a band-aid on, and obviously it isn't enough for such a big wound, so she inflicts me a deeper wound by separating, to make sure I'm wounded too and making sure that nobody heals, and that our S, the only one who has nothing to do with all of it, reaps the consequences of both our being immature...

this ^^ is so self serving and paranoid, that it's pretty odd. You actually believe she left you TO INFLICT PAIN ON YOU? That's just not realistic or fair.

She left you to stop HER pain. And you didn't care about your son in any visible way until AFTER she left you...in fact you did not show HER much love until after she left and that may well appear to be simply you not wanting to be the rejected party. You don't like to lose, that is clear.

But the way you speak of your wife is NOT very loving. Your "compliment list" includied that she can work long hours and "likes to knit"...you LOVE her BECAUSE she likes to knit??

Really?

Is she kind or smart or interested in the world around her? Does she take care of herself? Does she have long term friends and good relationships with her family and is she a good person who tries to be loving to others?



Anyways, just writing to say that I agreed to meet with W, W's L, and my L on Thursday to try and settle visitation time.
Preliminary discussion looks like one week I'll see S three times, and the second week I'll have S from Friday evening to Monday morning.

Does it look like fair to you?
Should I ask for more, especially the first week where I only see S for three times two hours (that's 6 hours for me, against 162 hours for W!)

It looks as if they are putting SON'S needs ahead of your wishes. To ease him into the transition of having a lot more time with you. IT's NOT permanent, right? Stop putting yourself first.


Also, for how long should I agree this transient state to last? One month, two months max?

Depends on how SON does. Go for 6 weeks at first and stress that YOU want to see how he fares as this happens. Not that you are letting your wife decide IF it will happen- but that YOU will assess HIS adjustment as it happens and as your time with him increases...Understand?

How should I appear Thursday, interested by only S, or should I propose for W to see a counsellor, even if only ONE appointment?

Thank you for your insight,
Bruce.

this is one of the few times you'll get to show her that HE is your priority. I hope you see this in time. OF course HE is the only priority you have at the moment.

Accept that she wants out and act as if you get it!

[Big Bruce]

Hiya,
Update on things.
First things first, I'll answer a couple of questions :

Your "compliment list" includied that she can work long hours and "likes to knit"...you LOVE her BECAUSE she likes to knit??
Really?

Yes, her knitting makes me feel, oh, so passionate.
For one it's so old-fashioned that it means stability. It carries strong affectional sense, that someone would buy the yarn and actually take time, with patience, to knit something for someone else. She knitted a Norwegian jumper for me at the beginning of our marriage, and I was so in love with her for that, still makes me heart melt.

Oh btw, she was working first in France, then in Monaco. No problem in that respect.

Is she kind or smart or interested in the world around her? Does she take care of herself? Does she have long term friends and good relationships with her family and is she a good person who tries to be loving to others?

She can be kind yes, and smart also. Not very interested in the world around her I'd say though.
She doesn't take particularly care of herself (no gym, no make up, no super clothes), but that's fine with me.
No long term friends, or short term as it is. I've always encouraged her to befriend people in church, but she doesn't like people. Everybody has always something bad or she's not interested. Which is a shame, because friends are the chocolate chip of the cookie in life.
You would think she is shy because she doesn't talk much or at all, but it's out of not wanting to mingle and open up.
As for her and family relationship, I ignore how it goes between them.


Now, let me describe how it went today, the meeting with the two lawyers and her.
First, I'm sure she didn't ask for the meeting because she appeared sullen. I knew that expression of hers.
Then when she spoke, it was only to say why she wanted 100% custody and only allow me visits. I made it clear she was free to leave the M, but that eventually we would have to share Brucie. From then on, she clamed up.
Then she only repeated what she already said in the sworn statement, how dangerous I was and how worried she was, and how she wouldn't concede anything.
After two hours, to say just that, I was thinking that at the rate at which the Lawyers are paid, I never wasted money so bad than today.

I said I wanted an increase in my time with my son, and she said she would increase it by one hour for the next six months (sic).
I protested, and her lawyer kept proposing one hour increases per week, but she was reluctant.
When HER own lawyer told her she was being unreasonnable, she said she didn't agree, because she took care of the baby, and I was inexperienced, etc...
My L called for a break and told me frankly, that we were wasting our time, and my money.

So we resumed our meeting, and my L said that he would plead tomorrow morning, to let the judge decide of the increase in time I should have.

So, I run practically no risk of having less than that tomorrow. But they will ask for money, and that will hurt because she is not playing it fair. She claims she's paying rent to their parents. POLL TIME WHO on this site believes it's true? Then she is claiming she pays her mother to keep Brucie. Again, WHO on earth believes it's true? And she is stating that she earns 0 $, when she works 22 hours a week! How is that possible? She wants child support, and spousal support.
Yes, my friends, she is unashamedly asking for half of my salary..

And to answer for the division of our property, I put all the money in, from the downpayment, my parents help, and every single mortgage payment. Now I understand she was one with me, so she invested her time and her life with me, but we were married for 3 years when she separated, and in three years she couldn't have earned the money she's asking for.

Anyway, I see in W someone who is afraid and resentful, and that has a big problem of unforgiveness. Maybe it's just an impression of mine, but it feels like she wants to make me pay, suffer a bit, a tit for tat.
I am responsible for sabotaging my own M, and I admit to almost all the faults she throws at me, but at least I'm trying my best now to salvage what I can.
Will she ever let go of holding on to that grudge?
Is there anything I can do to ecourage her to let go of the past? (and see that I am willing to make it work, and in fact that I am changed?)

Thank you, your advices are my precious counsel in this most stressful time of my life,
Bruce

[25yearsmlc]

Bruce

right now you are in a LEGAL BATTLE and you cannot at the same time, try to woo her.

The best you can do is pursue your legal interests. She may get some TEMPORARY alimony but with a 3 year marriage it won't exceed the length of the marriage. So at worst, you'd pay a few years and no it won't be half your salary PLUS child support. It just won't be.

As for the costs she is paying or not paying, it only matters so much. That's b/c even if she pays them nothing then YOU would be benefitting b/c if she did rent a real apartment you'd have to pay more.

Chances are that the amount she claims to pay them is NOT what she'd claim to pay in real rent so I'm not sure what you'll win arguing that she is lying anyhow.

Your lawyer did the right thing and off you'll go to court in the morning and not lose what she was suggesting to you.

For NOW, let her see what happens. Don't say anything mean or assume or mind read negatively.

She is angry and she has the right to be angry. But that does not mean you surrender your legal/parental rights.

Just stop thinking you can pursue her WHILE battling in court. You cannot. See Crimson's thread for his history. You'll have to let the dust/reality settle down (for both of you).

Learn from Crimson...don't wonder about your wife's intent right now. What we KNOW is she filed for divorce and full custody.

We know that^^^...that's all we KNOW...and that she insists in a semi formal setting that you were abusive. My guess is, she believes it. You don't.

That's what we KNOW...so don't ask us to guess when she'll forgive you or want you back. That is not the question you need to ask yourself at the moment.

For the last time, just focus on your son. It's possibly the only thing that might strike her as unusual or new for you...If that matters to her, which it probably does NOT at the moment.

[movingon-1968]

I'm pretty new on here and have been hesitant to comment on other people's issues.

I've read thru this thread several times with disbelief; just wow sums it up pretty good.

I think 25 is 100% correct in her evaluation of the sitch.

Bruce, you need to take your attention off of what you WANT to happen with your wife because, quite simply, it's not GOING to happen. At least not in a time frame that will make you happy.

Just stop thinking you can pursue her WHILE battling in court.

This is VERY GOOD ADVICE that you need to listen to. At best you'll look pathetic, at worse you'll look like a stalker and get even more legal action that will not be in your favor. I've seen this happen and it never has a good outcome.

You need to focus on changing the things about yourself you have identified as contributing to the problems in your M; you need to focus on your R with your son. Those are the only two things you have any control over.

[Big Bruce]

result of the hearing

Hello,
So, I get Tuesdays and Thursdays from 5h30 to 7h45, and every other week Saturday from 9h to 3pm
After two months the Saturday time gets transformed into Friday evening to Saturday 3pm
and after two months it gets transformed into Friday evening to sunday morning. every other week.

But, she got child support, spousal support, alimony, child care. Which amounts to half of my salary ! Which means she earns more than me now. I'm so mad.
I pay my rent, and the bills and more or less that's it, I can't put money aside, nevermind pay a mortgage or go on vacation..

And oh, it's retroactive, I have to use my savings, and borrow money to pay what I owe. I'm broke.

If I was in france I wouldn't have to pay a dime, but then I wouldn't see my son. So, it's not an option either.

First reactions from you? Fair, not fair, to be expected?
What do I do? Put a smile on while giving her the checks?

Tell her that now we have to ccoperate for the good of S, or is that a form of pursuing?

I have so many questions, I'm very confused, please help me.
(or pray for me..)

Thank you,
Bruce

[25yearsmlc]

result of the hearing

Hello,
So, I get Tuesdays and Thursdays from 5h30 to 7h45, and every other week Saturday from 9h to 3pm
After two months the Saturday time gets transformed into Friday evening to Saturday 3pm
and after two months it gets transformed into Friday evening to sunday morning. every other week.

And that sounds as if it's the standard "joint custody" for a dad, but Not half "physical custody," is that right? You DO realize you can go back for more? This is not written in stone.

But, she got child support, spousal support, alimony, child care.

Spousal support IS alimony. So How long will she get this? Again, this IS something you can revisit. It's NOT permanent. I have a hard time believing she will get half your salary for a 3 year marriage. I can see the "standard" 20-25% of income for the child support, b/c it is standard. But please don't assume that this is a permanent result. It just isn't.

While I realize different jurisdictions yield different results, I simply do not believe a woman in such a short marriage would get that much in alimony for very long. In fact, I'd bet that the sale of the home in France in being added in over here and you're overlooking that.

Here's a cite you may find helpful: Dept of Justice, Canada, "An Overview of the Advisory Guidelines/Support Advisory Guidelines July 2008".
It discusses amounts and length of time, etc.

So how long did they determine she gets spousal support, OR do you go back to decide that?

Which amounts to half of my salary ! Which means she earns more than me now. I'm so mad.

You are not listening...do you recall what YOUR lawyer said to you? I'm not sure you were calm enough to take it in. What do you remember him telling you?


I pay my rent, and the bills and more or less that's it, I can't put money aside, nevermind pay a mortgage or go on vacation..

And oh, it's retroactive, I have to use my savings, and borrow money to pay what I owe. I'm broke.

Presumably this^^ is b/c of the sale of the house in France, which you told her about when you mentioned that you now want to buy a home there...So that money was, in the eyes of the court and her, half hers.

And it would have been the same if she had filed in France, though I don't know about the child support issues. But all western nations make non custodial parents pay child support. You do get that, correct?

I'm not saying this to annoy you. I'm saying it to stop you from exaggerating the impact and from playing the victim, again.

If you read the law on Canadian divorce (see above cite) and see what they say about the couple owning things jointly, you'll find that the part where you divide what you two attained IN the marriage, is typical.

That part does not surprise me.

If I was in france I wouldn't have to pay a dime, but then I wouldn't see my son. So, it's not an option either.


Um, so You claim that the French don't make couples share property gained during the marriage? And they don't make fathers pay child support? I know for a fact that it isn't true. Why would you state this??



First reactions from you? Fair, not fair, to be expected?
What do I do? Put a smile on while giving her the checks?



Tell her that now we have to ccoperate for the good of S, or is that a form of pursuing?

I have so many questions, I'm very confused, please help me.
(or pray for me..)

Thank you,
Bruce

You need to ask your lawyer when the amount of spousal support (or what you refer to as alimony, which is a term rarely used now) ends, and whether you have to go back to court for that.

As you'll find in the cite I gave you, typically the child support ends when the child is emancipated OR later if a part of college costs is determined.

Spousal support ALWAYS ends when a person remarries but in short term marriages (less than 10 years) usually ends at the end of half the length of the marriage, in your case that would be 18 months. This happens even if the spouse has not remarried.

Plus you probably have to pay her for her half of the sales price of the home in France, so that may be why the amount seems so high to you right now. It's seen as a "debt" you owe her.

But it's NOT b/c you will "always" have to pay her more than you yourself earn or take home.

This is your victimhood description and I'd bet a lot that it's not accurate.

IF it is,

then send me a copy of the decision and evidence that it is a permanent irrevocable award, & I will donate $100 to your fav charity.

[25yearsmlc]

IN reply to how to act when you are around her, I"m not sure that is an issue. You said she refuses to see you.

But IF somehow you are around her, you always keep your behavior separate and apart from what happens in an adversarial place like court.

Either act as if it never happened (b/c it's not in your "world view") or as if it's not a big deal to you. Especially since one of her claims was that money was SO important to you, so don't play into that.

Again, keep the focus on the time with your son and growing that.

[Big Bruce]

Hi 25yearsmic,
You are right, my lawyer said the alimony is not forever. Still, I find it unfair. The access times will be renegotiated end of June, so for the moment I'm stuck with that plan.

I said that if I went back to France now, it would be a different jurisdiction, and I'm not sure that from Canada she could do anything. On top of that, in France, the Leaving spouse is at fault, especially if she left with the kid that is considered abduction, and cannot claim money, where in the province where I am, they don't consider who left or not. Worse, because she happened to be with our S, everybody thinks it's normal she gets to keep him, but by what magic?

Anyway, I didn't even mention to you the half of the property in France thing, because they want to plead it next time. We will plead unequal division, because it is obvious that when we married, I had all the money in my bank account, and she had 0. She can't three years after get away with several tens of thousands.
I was only mentioning for now, the sum of spousal support, plus the childcare she claims to pay to her mum {she can claim any number, that's where I don't get it}, plus child support, equals almost half of what I earn. But she works part time, and added to the money I have to give every month, she earns more than me!
A student that makes more than an engineer who works full-time!

So, thank you for your preliminary advice concerning my behaviour around her, I'll try and pretend it's okay for me to pay all of it every month...

On our Thursday meeting, apparently, she agreed to drop our S every other time. (although she has been promising things and didn't keep her word in the past seven months), so we will be around each other, at least for 5 seconds at a time.

Now, do you think an email like that one is profitable at this point :
Hi W,
Mr. XXX (her L) is right in one thing, we will have to cooperate now and build trust between us. I will take the parenting course like I said, go by the rules we talked about and try and do my best. The idea of the S log book was a good one, and I got S one for us to write in it.
Since we have to alternate picking ups and dropping offs, do you want to start on Tuesday, or should I begin?
Take care,
B.

If this is too "pursuing" at this stage (two days after hearing), knowing that she was super-sullen and looked very angry on Friday, any ideas of how I should hold the stick?

Alright my friends, any idea is welcome, just shoot, I'm all ears,
Bruce

[HollyAnn]

result of the hearing

Hello,
So, I get Tuesdays and Thursdays from 5h30 to 7h45, and every other week Saturday from 9h to 3pm
After two months the Saturday time gets transformed into Friday evening to Saturday 3pm
and after two months it gets transformed into Friday evening to sunday morning. every other week.

But, she got child support, spousal support, alimony, child care. Which amounts to half of my salary ! Which means she earns more than me now. I'm so mad.
I pay my rent, and the bills and more or less that's it, I can't put money aside, nevermind pay a mortgage or go on vacation..

And oh, it's retroactive, I have to use my savings, and borrow money to pay what I owe. I'm broke.

If I was in france I wouldn't have to pay a dime, but then I wouldn't see my son. So, it's not an option either.

First reactions from you? Fair, not fair, to be expected?
What do I do? Put a smile on while giving her the checks?

Tell her that now we have to ccoperate for the good of S, or is that a form of pursuing?

I have so many questions, I'm very confused, please help me.
(or pray for me..)

Thank you,
Bruce

Wow, Bruce. You have been pounded mercilessly ever since you got to this forum.
I don't see where you were a bad enough husband to warrant an ambush divorce with little to no communication from your W.
I guess I'll chalk it up to her being an immature, spoiled brat. Passive-agressive much? Yikes!
And what kind of mother thinks it's a good idea to keep a child from his father?? Have you heard of The Golden Uterus Syndrome? Google it. Very interesting and horrifying.
Anyway, I understand completely how you feel. I was also on the receiving end of an ambush D and it bankrupted me. Little to no communication between us, although that was mostly my doing. I went dark immediately. Turns out he didn't like that.
Our D became final a year later and he remarried.
And five years later he came crawling back, paying my mortgage because he finally felt bad for the way he treated me.
So, I just wanted you to know that at least one person here understands how you feel.