Tad, As you may recall, I've been here for most of your journey. I called your ex w out on her crazy stuff (like when she brought up a "girlfriend" of yours from 6th grade). I called her out on her gratuitously nasty stuff, w/her spewing.
But you are here now, and I hope you'll check out a thread w/my screen name on the subject.
You may find some of your issues addressed there, but here goes.
Originally Posted By: tadpole1025
Thanks for the responses. 25, to answer your questions:
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If we have children with our former spouses, we still have duties to our children to MINIMIZE the affect of the divorce on them. Tad, how do you see your efforts there?
I'm doing better here. I don't talk about it as much and I have stopped asking S18 questions when he returns from her place. I'm glad to hear this^^. As you may suspect, I was saddened by your resentment of your ex w, your son's mom, getting them Christmas presents BECAUSE you had not. I thought it made you look small & petty to be mad at her. But to your credit, you stepped up and admitted to something like that, and regretted it. So, kudos.
That's pretty much all we can do, but it gets easier if you FIRST ask yourself "how will this affect our children" BEFORE you react to something that happens, or to anything SHE does. IT's not all about us.
If your son's welfare is your priority and guide and NOT getting her back or trying to "understand" it all, you'll have fewer regrets. Truly, you must make TODAY'S decisions so that tomorrow you'll regret the 'yesterday' less.
If you keep staring at the past and wondering why, you'll miss out on what is happening NOW. I'd urge you to read "The Power of Now" as well. It's soothing and enlightening. Also, At this point - your ex wife's actions now are NOT of your world, unless they affect the boys. And even then, that is between them. Especially at their age.
As you know, my h & I have reconciled our m. But here is a newsflash. My h and our d's are in "piecing" as far as I can tell. They have their own journey. The girls have not done the forgiveness work I have done and it only recently dawned on me that they might take years to get there OR never get there.
Keep that in mind too, b/c even when a marriage is restored, there are other r's in a family that are still being worked on and evolving. But we can serve as models for our children; models of forgiveness, redemption, letting go and being in the present. Our Happiness is our task, our responsibility.
I think that's the best we can do, IN or OUT of a marriage.
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(Off the top of my head, I can't recall a single time Tad has mentioned one thing he wishes he'd done better as a h...did I miss it Tad? Do you recall any flaws you want to work on?)
Yes, I did post these here early on.
I could have been more supportive Tad you say this^^ & I believe you mean it, but I have no idea what it means. The less specific you are, the harder it is to change. Be as specific as you can be so you can measure your own progress. This is not meant for a reconciliation but as a measure of your own personal growth.
But then, who is to say she won't find herself missing the old original Tad? Then again, who is to say you'll be available? Showed her more affection Do you think in your next r, with her or with OW, you'll be more affectionate? IS it important to YOU?
Worked less (I thought I was doing the right thing. Kind of hard to turn down a $600 appearance fee for 2 hours of work. I worked a lot so we could live comfortably.) Men say this^^ a lot. God knows my h did & so did my dad. & There is SOME truth to it! Men are seen as providers (apologies to my feminist friends out there) so yeah, the earning capacity reflects on them being a good catch, etc.
There's also ego to it. My h gets lots of accolades at work, (not just money). OR he gets a promotion or a bonus or published or gets lots of pats on the back, thanks from his patients, and he does life saving work.
it's hard for a family with toddlers in diapers to compete with that, and Lord knows that we women at home don't get bonuses or promotions, so maybe there's an insight of value there.
(SIDENOTE: I've been a full time mom, a working career mom and an in between, and there are upsides/downsides to all. But purely for the purpose of ego, I'd take a paying job anyday. For my heart's needs, it's staying at home.
In sum, we all struggle with these choices Tad, after the fact too.)
But in general, I think 2 factors play here with the "works too much" issue. 1) Financial NEEDS count, but have to be balanced against greed or workaholism...but 2) whoever is at home (usually the mom) has to have their contributions appreciated and valued.
A lot of tension, marital harm and neglect, resentment, etc, would be reduced or eliminated, with some simple, consistent effort on the part of the "away from home" partner.
Could have made her feel important - guess I took things for granted. So can you think of ways you did not make her a priority or valuable to you?
I mean, you say "guess I" and "could have" but Tad, my gut tells me something is "off" here^^^....you've had quite some time to reflect so I'm not sure your first posts listing general failings is what you'd write now.
Either it's a raw issue for you that you don't want to look at, or you don't honestly believe it. Check the tone you're using. Does it sound very remorseful to you? And if it's not, be honest about it. If you do NOT believe you took her for granted, feel free to say that.
IF you DO, then figure out how you'll change for your next r. And how you have done work on the r's you have with others. Are you more appreciative of the people in your life at home, work on the social scene/neighborhood? Do you express that appreciation more? Are you more affectionate with your sons?
See, there are changes you can make that are not about your ex w now, or that won't matter, but they're changes you want to make for YOUR LIFE. What are those??
I never considered myself to be judgemental, but according to her I guess I was. Tad, yes or no. Were you judgemental or not? Did you SOUND more judgemental than you meant to, or is she simply projecting? Why is this still something you're not sure of? Is there ANY validity to it, b/c I cannot tell from what you wrote. AND....----- This ONLY matters if it's true AND if it's something YOU want to work on for YOUR LIFE.
None of this is for more post mortem analysis of the dead marriage.
I shouldn't have assumed that she knew the way I felt about her.
None of us should do that^^. But we all often do. We all need to express our positives more and our negatives less.
But the ratio of feedback in our world tends to be more negative (what we euphemistically refer to as "constructive feedback") than positive. ANd the irony is that how we hear feedback gives MUCH more weight to the negatives.
Let's say you were to list 20 traits about a new person you met, and literally 18 were positive traits. You can bet the audience AND the "new person" will first & foremost focus on the negatives you mention. It's how we seem to be wired.
So we have to make an effort to INCREASE the positive feedback we give exponentially. It's not just you who has to do that, but most of us.
Plus let's face it, Tad. You were married for a long time. Many partners get lazy. We call it take for granted but it's pretty much the same thing.
I wasn't there, so I don't know if your wife told you she felt neglected or what she SAID to you then, or if she said things you really did not hear. Evidently she did ask you to be home more. (WHen a wife asks her h to be home more, it's usually not b/c she wants him to do chores. She wants time together. She wants intimacy, even if only emotional. She misses HIM).
Many of us are guilty of this, and it's a thing to note. We try to Learn from other's experiences and our own.
I know there were a lot of things that I could have done differently. I did the best I could though. Tad, I don't want to quibble or make you feel bad. You've been depressed too long imo. But to say there were things you could have done differently BUT you did your best, just does not make sense.
After a few years of marriage, most of us start to fall asleep at the wheel and we do NOT do our best. If there are things you could and WOULD do differently, then own that and learn from it. No need to wear a hair shirt forever.
Consider your sentence "time served" and free yourself.
I can't get over the feeling that the best 25 years of my life were nothing but a lie. Atleast, it seems that way to me....
Tad
Oh YES YOU CAN GET OVER "the feeling" that...
Otherwise we're all just subject to the whims of the emotions we feel at a given moment.
Isn't that what you think your ex w did when she had an A? She "felt" something and so that FORCED her to act on it.
No, we are in charge of how we handle our feelings and we can direct them to more positive perspectives, absolutely.
Where the head goes, the heart will follow (IF WE LET IT!)
It's an absurd thing to say that your whole life or marriage was a lie, absurd to have that belief let alone to dwell on it. But you have dwelled on it and repeated it.
It doesn't even make sense to me. Maybe a few months of deception happened, but why enlarge it so much? What's the point? Please go to the thread w/my screen name on it. There's a big part of it that relates directly to your situation, imo.
As a long time poster here, I take different approaches obviously depending on the situation AND depending on how long someone has been here.
If you were a newbie reeling from a recent OP discovery, I'd coddle you big time and tell you that you will get better, life does improve, you are not a bad person, you will learn to love and live fully, again, IN TIME.
But a lot of people have told you this ^^^already. Countless times. For years.
A lot of posters have spent time to help you analyze WHY she did it, what it meant or did not mean. (Others, like me, don't think it matters much why she chose "x", or if it's an MLC or a WAW, b/c YOUR path and course of action are identical regardless of her reasons or intentions).
Some of us keep said it's not important why b/c you must adapt to the world as it is now, not as you thought it ought to be.
Some have said the more you look in the rear view mirror, the more mistakes you make NOW driving.
Others point out that whether SHE is "really happy" now or if she will regret it later BUT THEY mean nothing to your day to day life...
OH Tad, We don't get through to you for long. Why do you think that is? Tad, sweetie, a part of you is comfortable wallowing where you are, and staying stuck. Part of you is terrified of letting go of this struggle.
I worry that it won't end with her marriage to OM, if that goes through. You'll wonder if she's happier NOW? What about the honeymoon??
If she breaks it off w/OM, and meets OM#2, I think you'll spend time reeling and analyzing and feeling bad all over again, "why not me now?" etc.
So in a way none of what SHE does matters b/c what matters is that you are not moving much.
(CAVEAT--I say this based on these posts and threads. I concede you could just be having a bad day and choose to post on those days. I get that. I truly hope a lot of your sadness is temporary and fleeting and that you find it helpful to journal here...)
But I worry that you've decided to "stay here" in the land of "WHY ME???"
And the other side of that is the ""My whole life was a lie." Um, Tad, that's a bit too dramatic for me.
You're smart enough man to know that it's also not accurate. In fact it's kind of silly. BUT HEY, Let's Run with it For illustrative purposes...
"Okay so the 25 years was ALL a lie. Like, on your wedding day SHE was lying! She knew it too! She NEVER Loved you, not really...she was ALWAYS miserable!
She NEVER never wanted the kids. Wait, She ONLY wanted the kids...
She never thought the times you made her laugh were actually funny. In fact, she's the greatest actress of the century. She ought to coach Meryl Streep. (And maybe she's gay too-but that's a whole other lie she's telling her fiance.)
The times she cried at funerals or sad events, were also lies...she actually LOVED every minute of those tragedies... Tad, I hope you can see that w/gross exaggeration we can illustrate that some of our worst fears are NOT valid. Your whole marriage was NOT a lie.
In a nut shell, at some point her needs were not met in the m. RIght or wrong, she either told you and you didn't get it, or care enough, or she kept it to herself and hoped things would right themselves.
Over time, enough emptiness occupied her tank & she looked elsewhere and or stumbled into someone willing to meet those unmet needs.
She chose to focus on a r w/OM, instead of working to change the m she had with you. So, now what, Tad? What do you want to do with your remaining time on earth? To me, that is the question to ask.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I see a lot of posting suggesting that we were partially to blame when our spouses walked out on us. In hindsight we all could have done better. We did some less than ideal things but we DID not walk out on a marriage. There are many people that feel that a spouse is partially to blame when the other spouse has an affair. I DON"T !!
Have you read the DB books that form the basis of this approach to marital crisis? And what good does it do YOU to deny any responsibility in your hs' behavior? What if a man or woman denies his spouse sex, for years? Is the affair even a little more understandable than in a marriage where the spouse was a willing and warm lover? ALL affairs are equally wrong and impossible to justify at all? What about the number? Is 1 affair less wrong than 46?
Sure, I agree that it is possible to have played no role in an affair of a spouse. One really could have been a perfect wife and he could still cheat. Though it's rare, it has happened.
To me, that's the worst case scenario b/c then you really are powerless. After all, you were perfect and he still blew it.
There's nothing you can do in that situation except end the marriage.
(Does that make anyone here feel better?) We had 3 mc's tell my h he was being "selfish" or "not putting his family first" and "being unfair" to me. Though I felt "right" and vindicated, my victory was short lived.
After all, my h still made the choices he made. I was 'right" but I was miserable AND powerless. What do YOU DO if the spouse is "wrong"?
The best news to get is that you DID play a role in the problems b/c then you can do something about them. You are NOT powerless.
When a spouse has an affair it is solely their decision to do that. No one MADE them or justified it for them.
Yet in almost all the affairs, the WAS feels justified. How is that? Surely some are simply selfish serial cheaters. In a way, good riddance.
But what about the others? HOW did they rationalize their choices?
Please don't beat yourself up with all the things you could have done better. You did that best you could, given what you knew, AT THE TIME. We learn from it and quit frankly become a better person for it.
HOW do we learn from it if we don't take a personal moral inventory ourselves? If it's all their fault and we played NO role in it, what is there to learn?
How will we be "better for it" then?
Your wife left... you did NOT make her leave.
Yes, I know I will have a bunch of people disagree with me... so be it.
I have been following all your posts. You are a good guy and don't you forget it !!
I too have a few bad days... as we all do. But they are getting less and less...
I would not spend the time with Tad that I have, if I didn't believe he's at heart a good decent man. That's why I told him to take the hair shirt off.
Asking him what he's learned and if he played a role in the demise of his marriage, and urging him to make his life better NOW, is unrelated to his ex-wife's affair. It's also unrelated to ANYTHING his ex wife is doing now.
Do you see how?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thank you Whitney and 25. I kind of agree with both of you. 25, you gave me a lot to think about. As for my postings here, you are right, they are basically on bad days when i just need to vent.
Today is one of those days.
I'm sure I'll get the 2x4 for this.
I've just been doing so much thinking and still struggle with the disbelief that things turned out this way.
She now has her wedding invitations out and the date is June 15.
Apparently, they have already bought a house.
My S20 said to me the other night that he thinks that she left because of money. I almost believe him.
I've noticed that I get anxiety when I hear something about her or know that she is on the phone with one of our sons. Why is this? I get weak in the knees and get a weird feeling in my stomach and all over. Why?
I am struggling. Still.
I've got a second date with a woman on Tuesday that I really don't want to go to. I feel nothing.
Anyways, just a bad two days and sorry for rambling....
Tad
Currently: M 56 XW 57 Sons 38,33,31,29
The Sitch: Married 26 years EA w/ OM 9/10 Bomb 10/10 (5 weeks after 25th anniversary) Sep 12/10 She wants D 1/11 W files 5/11 D final 10/11 XW marries OM 6/13
Tad you still have a ways to go. My ex remarried and had a baby and with each step I told myself i was taking it just like that...."step by step". of course mine remarried and got preg. 5 mths after we divorced but the hurt is still the same. It took me 3 yrs. or over to actually be able to hear things about him or them and it not make me nervous. I hardly think of him now. If my son didnt live with him (again), I prb wouldnt think of him as much.
It will be alright Tad, the worst is behind you. You will have setbacks but it will be OK!
Try to stay busy as much as you can. Your life is NOT over. There is so much more to life than marriage. I loved being married but there is so much more than that. Do things that make YOU happy. You have your kids, that is something GREAT! There are always others whose situation is worse. Be thankful Tad!
Thank you Whitney and 25. I kind of agree with both of you. 25, you gave me a lot to think about. As for my postings here, you are right, they are basically on bad days when i just need to vent.
Today is one of those days. I hope you'll go right back UP this page and read the post I wrote you. It hits all these^^^ points...again.
Did you ask yourself the questions I asked you to ask? PLEASE DO b/c they are designed to help you correct your mistaken way of thinking.
Do you honestly think and feel the "whole 25 years" was a lie? Please read my post again and again til you see that it's nutty to think like that. It's an actual thought disorder. Don't go there Tad. It's not real and it's not healthy.
I'm sure I'll get the 2x4 for this. I've just been doing so much thinking and still struggle with the disbelief that things turned out this way. STOP IT. GAL.
What you call "thinking", I call wallowing. You are choosing to stay stuck. It's "stinkin' thinkin'" and it's really NOT healthy.
Tad, Snap out of it! Whatever it takes, you have to see that enough is enough.
(I'm lovingly/virtually going through this computer & slapping you in the face, Tad. Get Unstuck!) She now has her wedding invitations out and the date is June 15.
Apparently, they have already bought a house. And therefore....what? How does this relate to YOU?
Yes she is gone. She's moving forward. That is reality. It has nothing to do with you. NOT Directly...NOT today....Even if it did, once upon a time, it does not relate to you now. So let it go.
My S20 said to me the other night that he thinks that she left because of money. I almost believe him. Why does your son tell you these things? I must assume YOU ASK...
"Money" is the simplest answer a 20 y/o can come up with. He can see her buying a house (IF that is true).
AND so what? It's not relevant NOW. I've told you to disconnect HER choices from your life.
You seem to think everything she does directly and inversely affects you. If she wins the lottery, you go bankrupt. If her car is new, your car breaks down. Like there is a causal relationship...
It's a crazy way of seeing things. (And it's kind of all about you...)
What is going on here? Why do you have these conversations with your SON? It hurts HIM AND YOU to spend time on this.
It keeps HIM stuck (with you), wanting the past to return, instead of learning to adapt to reality. Instead of making the most of TODAY...
again, I'd urge you to read the Power Of Now b/c you are not living in the present. You live in the "land of regrets & what ifs" and it's a lonely place to be.
Please, Please see the harm it does to HIm to question & over simplify what HE thinks YOUR EX W thinks, (or feels or plans or what her reasons from the past were)...it's simply not an issue HE ought to be concerned with or discussing with you. Isn't any of this between you and her?
Tad, What do YOU believe it'll take for you to let go of the past? I mean it Tad. Is there anything you can imagine, that will free you
IF you don't free yourself? Is there an external event you are awaiting?
See, I believe in my heart of hearts, only you can free yourself of the past.
I don't believe anything SHE does/says will free you. If she does not marry OM, but marries someone else, OR if she prefers to stay single, you'll still be stuck asking why and wondering if "your whole life was a lie"...
And sweetie, that's on you.
I've noticed that I get anxiety when I hear something about her or know that she is on the phone with one of our sons. Why is this?
B/C you have not detached. Period.
I get weak in the knees and get a weird feeling in my stomach and all over. Why? see above re you not detaching. This is not complicated.
I am struggling. Still.
I've got a second date with a woman on Tuesday that I really don't want to go to. I feel nothing. You sound too depressed to go. I'm torn between urging you to GAL and saying "stay home, it's not fair to OW." What are you doing to GAL other than fake dating? Please JOIN SOMETHING this month. Anything with new people who do NOT know your situation...I've pointed out numerous times, there are things to join that do NOT cost much.
I'd urge you to attend a workshop called Essential Experience ("EE") but It's not free and you'd really have to let go of the past. The good news is, they help you do that.
(See Power Of Now's post b/c he just went to EE, and I witnessed his breakthroughs and growth. Amazing really).
They have a website to check out.
Whatever it takes Tad, you have to get unstuck for YOU and for your sons....I've literally lost count of how many times I've told you to think about them and the effect your behavior has on them.
I worry that although you say you only come here on those bad days, (I mostly believe you) that your sons see a LOT of those days. I can't stress enough how much damage I think it does to them.
QUESTION---Will They ever be allowed to be happy for their mother?
What if she's actually happy?
(Do you believe that HER being happy = you being a loser?)
Is it possible that she could NOW be happier with someone else, and it might NOT reflect on you?
THEN, if she is happy, could her sons be a little glad for her?
Would you prefer they not go to her wedding at all?
Would you prefer they cut off all contact with her? I understand these feelings, but where does it leave them?
Anyways, just a bad two days and sorry for rambling....
Tad
You're not rambling. But you are wallowing. You need to re-direct the way you think, like we ALL had to do at one point or another.
Tad, can you just do me and you a favor and really take in that earlier post?
I wish I could get you to see how good life COULD be, if you'd make the effort to GAL FOR REAL...
I mean it.
((( )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
The disbelief? What makes it so you can't believe it happened? Any of it?
It happened Tad.
It stops when you stop it. When you wake up and decide you won't be treated like that. When you wake up and decide to take your life back from the crazies.
You've come a long way, but still have further to go mate. That's ok. It won't happen overnight and you know that.
When does Tad stand up and say, enough is enough and I won't go a step further?
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
It stops when you stop it. When you wake up and decide you won't be treated like that. When you wake up and decide to take your life back from the crazies.
Notice the use of the work "you" instead of "xw". What AJ is saying is to TAKE BACK CONTROL OVER YOUR LIFE.
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When does Tad stand up and say, enough is enough and I won't go a step further?
Good question AJ! Is it that Tad is afraid of "being done"...it is that Tad...is afraid to admit that deep down inside her really wants this to end but that feeling that way feels so...."final". Hmmmm....
Tad, you can be done today and not done tomorrow. You can decide to not want to be with her today - it really does not mean that that's it...the door is closed. IF you are feeling that you are afraid to be done, try and face it dude. Try to see what is feels like. Think of it as a test...a pushing of yourself to try something different. Maybe Tad, you just may feel a little better and that buddy is what it is all about. Small steps to feel a little better.
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I wish I could get you to see how good life COULD be, if you'd make the effort to GAL FOR REAL..
I sooo echo what 25 posted up there ^^^^....if you only tried a few things that YOU really wanted to do..things that are just fun for Tad. Ya know, this past weekend we had a huge snow storm in my neck of the woods. My town was covered in 30 - 36 inches of snow. In the snow storm several people died. Most were ederly, which [censored], but also was a younger fella...he just had a heart attack and the ambulance could not get to him. He died. As I heard about the news I was struck with a felling of...."how did this guy live? What was his life like" Was he divorced" Did he ever recover from his D? Was he happy? If he could have been revived what we he say? Would he say that I should have enjoyed my life a little more? Had a little more fun...more smiles...more laughter. Would he have said, I wish I did this or did that? My point Tad - Life is REALLY SHORT. You get one shot at this life dude - why not focus on enjoying it instead of wallowing in the what if, could of, should of, and guilt.
I know you say that you come here when you are down. Why not come here when you are up and try cheering someone else up? Why not reach out to some folks to just chat? Why write about the positives of STRENGTH and ENDURANCE? Why not write about your goals and dreams and what you are doing to really achieve them?
Tad - you can do better and yes, you will feel chitty some days. It happens... You though can CHOOSE something different Tad...you just have to be willing to face it. It is time bro....it is time.
Eric
"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter". "Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!" "Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
25 - can you point me to the post/article that you wanted me to read?
I saw XW yesterday. She was here dropping off S18 and some paperwork that she thought that I might need. I let my anger show a little bit. I fail.
Been struggling the past two days.
Currently: M 56 XW 57 Sons 38,33,31,29
The Sitch: Married 26 years EA w/ OM 9/10 Bomb 10/10 (5 weeks after 25th anniversary) Sep 12/10 She wants D 1/11 W files 5/11 D final 10/11 XW marries OM 6/13
Thank you. Eric, maybe I am afraid of being done. Maybe so...why is that? What are you AFRAID will happen if you let her go?
25 - can you point me to the post/article that you wanted me to read? I think it's the website for Essential Experience, b/c I think a 2-4 day "experiential" workshop (w/exercises for self discovery, not lectures, and ways to change behaviors demonstrated) will shift your paradigm more than weekly sessions with someone.
B/c it's experiential, and not a Q & A session, you cannot "edit" yourself or rehearse your answers. That has a lot of value, & I speak from experience.
If it's an article, I'll go back & look but I think it's the "EE" website I referred to.
I saw XW yesterday. She was here dropping off S18 and some paperwork that she thought that I might need. I let my anger show a little bit. I fail.
Been struggling the past two days.
not sure why you are angry at her...now...but whatever...
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Whatever the reason, it's part of it, Tad. You have suppressed much of that anger for a long time. It needs to go somewhere....
How have you been?
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Why does your son tell you these things? I must assume YOU ASK...