3 Months in, Still fighting. Crunch time!

[SM34]

OK so the question that sparked off the last few posts was regarding Valentines day. You are right, I don't think I will get her anything. Thankfully, I have a phone coaching session tomorrow morning so I can get Laurie's take on it and still have time to act if she thinks I should. But I am definitely leaning towards no gift, no card. What about from D3? I didn't even do that because I feel like if D3 was old enough to understand what mommy was doing, she wouldn't get her anything either. But that might be too harsh.

Starsky, this point was KILER:

By the way, that "I decided that _____" framing can be super-useful. Not so much if you LEGITIMATELY were formerly controlling SOB in the marriage, but otherwise it shows strength.

I was definitely the H who said "whatever you want", the complete opposite of controlling. And she has mentioned it to me many times over the years that she would like to see me plan something and execute without her input. GH31 also recommended this WAY back at the beginning of my sitch, and told me to purge the indecisiveness from my psych. I have done just that, as part of my 180s.

I planned the Saturday night outing to the psychic show and bought tickets, and then chose where we went to eat afterwards. I have also done this several times during the last 2.5 months and had written about the positive response I got from her, here on the board.

Fade wrote:

You mentioned several times you are looking at marriage builders as well as Divorce Busting. I think this is a big source of your issues and confusion, and the source of exasperation from the people on this board. You need to pick one or the other, these two approaches are diabolically different in intent and approach.

Yes I have read a lot on marriage builders, but I'm not sure I agree that the approach is so drastically different. Yes DB is more from a place of LOVE than MB, but the stages they recommend are similar. What I understand from almost 3 months on the DB board and having absorbed the advice of many veterans is as follows:

1) The LBS needs to exhibit the willingness to change, and address their issues that lead to the sitch. Then 180s should be done on those issues.
2) For my particular sitch, many have supported the idea of keeping my wife at home as long as possible to see the changes, and also more importantly to do what works to bring her closer, not push her further. I understand this to be NOT operation doormat, but more like operation WELCOME HOME mat.
3) You put up with the situation, (with boundaries) until you cannot take it anymore. There will naturally come a time where you cannot stay in this state of limbo. At that point, you will naturally begin to push the WAS towards the option they originally wanted to execute, which is to move out. The WAS has a last chance to make a decision to stay, naturally.
4) When the WAS leaves, you have worked on yourself and detached to where you don't care much. So naturally you will not be contacting the WAS that much unless it is related to the kids.

So, to me this is very similar to plan A and plan B, its just less rigid and less planned from a timeline position. In DB you let these stages happen naturally as you actually reach these different levels of detachment, and all the while you show your WAS a confident, happy person, someone they would want to be with. I believe Dr Harvey and WMD are really onto very similar scientific ways in saving your marriage, but one is more rigid with a written plan and a timeline etc...and one is much a much more natural progression of your sitch.

As best as I can tell, most of your actions look like you are trying to use marriage builder's "plan A" carrots and ignoring the "180" rules against support and pursuing

I am really just following the very fundamental concept in DB which is Do what works, and reject what doesn't. Michelle says to ask yourself, is what I am doing bringing me closer to my WAS? If not, try something else.

When I apply that to my sitch, here is what I come up with. My W's most important complaint about our M, and I believe the ONLY reason I am in this position, is that I didn't meed her needs emotionally. To be more precise, I did not compliment her enough on her looks and did not pursue her enough sexually.

Michelle warns in DR that if your WAS complained about unmet emotionally needs, it is not advisable to pull back, because that is just more of the same. I believe that is why Laurie wanted me to try to experiment with touch to see if my W was receptive and would be OK with me showing physical affection. Because if she is, I think Laurie will recommend that I keep working on light touch here and there.

So for some of you who's sitch was caused by being angry, or being controlling, or being somehow negative if you know what I mean, it makes perfect sense to pull back and give space and act as if. For people who's sitch is based on unmet physical affection, it is definitely more of the same!

So that is why I am really not confused on this part. And obviously I know my W very well, and I know how she feels towards me. I see the way she acts now as opposite to the first 2 or 3 weeks when I was giving her a lot of space and not at all showing much interest in her physically. It was just more of the same for her. Now that I am taking initiative to plan things, and I am complimenting her on her looks here and there (within reason), and doing the rest of my 180s like DIY projects around the house, coming home early etc.. I see that she is spending more KEY days at home. Saturday night is traditionally a day you spend with your "loved one". So is valentines day. In the last 10 days, I have been chosen for Saturday night AND valentines. So I'm going to see that as doing something right, and reject what I was doing at the very beginning (which got me a night home alone with D3 on new years which was also my 34 birthday!!).

Tallula, I respect your opinion and I definitely see how you do not want me to be a doormat. But again, in your sitch your husband accused you of being controlling, so the correct way to handle that is to "act as if" and give lots of space. I can't do that because that is more of the same and I WILL be divorce very quickly that way. Also your husband had multiple affairs, over a period of time without telling you. That is incredibly hurtful and you were right to ask him to move out!

In my sitch, I have to recognize that my W had no physical contact with OM until she came clean to me. She cried and said she was very confused, she didn't know why she was having these thoughts. Well i know! Its an emotional affair! Her brain is in chemical overload and she knows not what she does. I believe she is a good person, who is very confused and needs me to be the lighthouse. But Tullala you are right that I have to be very careful that I don't be a doormat.

I sleep in the master bedroom, I give her cash to buy groceries (took away the cash stash we used to have in the drawer so now she has to ask me), she is not to mention OM in MY house. But I treat her kindly and show her that she is going to miss out, but I try to also be stern when she crosses a line like mentions OM or needs spending money to go see him. You are right, I am paying for gas but i gas up the car JUST ENOUGH to get her there and back....not a drop more. And only because I believe if she spends enough time with this jackass loser (I know he is a loser, sorry I know this breaks the rules because it doesn't matter) it will help her realize. More time with anyone helps bring out the love extinguishers right?

If OM lived here in town she would have been kicked out a long time ago. She would be close enough to be able to come spend time with D3 because I believe that is very important for D3. She would also be able to go sleep at OM's house all the time, and that would help speed up the collapse of this A. I know there is no guarantee, but we all know the odds are against them, especially that I know they have nothing in common. He tells her she is hot, and that is what she needed.

I certainly wouldn't be mean to the person who was financing my fling & lifestyle and showering me with stuff...

You are right. I have thought about this long and hard. Obviously I see what is going on. But I feel that the progression from her being very cold and totally over our relationship the first few weeks and the way she is now is very different. Is she playing me? I can;t know for sure, but just from having known her since she was 17 I believe she is not. She truely believes that if she chooses OM, she can still have a very friendly relationship with me, and still come over to our home any time she wants. She of course has not read up on emotional needs etc.. like we all have so she doesn;t realize she is only happy right now because I am providing her with MOST of her emotional needs. Once I reach the point where i can't take this anymore, if she chooses OM and moves out, she will quickly realize he isn't going to cut it. And I will have shown her how wonderful I am, and that I am willing to work on my short comings, and the last memories she will have of life in our marital home will be wonderful. If I had kicked her out at the beginning, she would only remember emotional emptiness.

So do you guys think I am making sense? Aren't some sitches a little different and require a different approach? She feels I wasn't taking time to bond emotionally with her, so acting as if is going to re inforce that.

If anyone is around here tonight to expand on any of this, please do. I am very curious because this can make or break my cause. I want to stay married, and whether I feel like a doormat or not is of no concern to me right now. I am only concerned with whether my W thinks I am a doormat, and how to gain respect and at the same time exhibit the ability to be mroe emotionally available and more complimenting.

The most important thing to note when weighing the options is what AnotherStander mentioned, and also Laurie my DB coach. She is not pushing away, and she is not recoiling when I show affection.

I respect you all and REALLY REALLY appreciate all of you guys very very much. I may argue a little but it is only because of what I feel is working. That is why I want you guys to know the updates so that I can get feedback if what I am doing is bringing her closer, or further.

Please provide input tonight if you are around. My phone coaching is in the morning so I will be able to ask Laurie why she is having me try to touch my W when DB rules say no touch, although i feel I know the answer to that. If any of you have some more questions I should ask her please let me know!!

THANK YOU GUYS!! AnotherStander, Starsky, Tallula, Fade, LEO, Gabbysmom, thank you all for your input. Please let me know if I am interpreting michelle's teaching and correctly applying them to MY PARTICULAR SITCH.