I don't get the sense you ladies are mean and cruel to your H's like my W is to me.
M17 yrs. me49 xW47 d15 d11
BD1-Jul/11(Affair found out) Therapy 9 months (tried 2) BD2- May/12(sep) Court Jul/13 - I got 50/50 Sold home - Aug/13 Court #2 - Dec/13 Court#3 - Apr/14 ... She lost again We settled.
So my question for your H would be this: If he wasn't M'd, would he still work 80 hours a week? And if he would, then what does that have to do with loving his W, when she wouldn't exist? Who would he be "loving" by his actions then? My answer: himself. I don't think you can claim that you're doing it out of love for someone else when you would do anyway if you were alone. Then it just becomes rather narcissistic, that your spouse is blessed just by being around you while you continue to live your life the way you do when you're single.
I've thought for years that my H still carried a flame for his ex, though he denies it adamantly. Regardless of his words, I could see things in his actions. Even while he claimed to hate her (she D'd him and devastated him financially,) he would always talk kindly to her, never lower the bar in his interactions with her. He could have easily managed certain day-to-day problems if he had lied to her, but he just wouldn't. We recently had a conflict because he went to his ex-FIL's funeral, and of course hung out with his ex-inlaws for awhile afterwards. He hasn't had a relationship with them in 20 years, but there was no talking him out of it, even though he knew it bothered me. *That* speaks more to love that his words, and more love of his ex/family than of me.
I also think love has to be pure, or it's just something else. I think if you choose to lie to prevent an issue with your spouse, then there's something operating at a higher level than love, most likely selfishness. I don't think they can both exist at the same moment. I relate it to being on a diet. You're either on a diet or you're not. You can't say you are, and then chow down an entire chocolate cake. *That* is not being on a diet. Being on a diet means that you do the hard work of saying "no" when the cake is placed in front of you, not lie about the cake so you can continue to claim to be on a diet. When people see you chowing on the cake after stating that you're on a diet, I'm pretty sure they believe you're *not* on a diet, especially if there is a pattern. Of course, then there's the difference between being on a diet and wanting to lose weight. I believe that you can chow down an entire cake and still *want* to lose weight. So I guess that's where the feeling part comes in. And as long as you're not trying to cram a 400lb body into a size 4 pant, you can do that your whole life.
And I think *that* is where our H's have screwed up. They're trying to fit their poor behavior into a happy M, and it just doesn't fit.
So maybe I've done a full circle and have landed exactly where you are. In the diet analogy, I can believe that he *wants* to lose weight. I can also believe he will continue to eat everything in sight. As a result, he is not going to fit into size 32 pants. In our M, I could at least consider that he has feelings of love for me, but I also believe he will continue to exhibit selfish behaviors that far outweigh the loving ones, and so he will not fit into a happy M. With me, anyway.
I'm just babbling as I think this through. I guess I believe that he could love me, but it isn't his dominant feeling. When there is no "chocolate cake" competing for his interest, then he can love me. But there's just always chocolate cake somewhere, isn't there?
I don't get the sense you ladies are mean and cruel to your H's like my W is to me.
I could hear my H saying that I was. Of course if I ever asked him for specifics, he wouldn't be able to remember anything *at the moment*.
Feeling loved is complicated. It's why you can't just pick two people randomly off the street and it's an automatic connection. The 5LL's are a good tool for communication, but it's important that they be understood. And the lessons I've read are missing some aspects of it, I think. People have different LL's, sure, but I think a single person might have a different giving LL than their receiving LL. For example, a man might show his love by providing financial support for his family. To simply say his love language is financial support is a recipe for disaster. If his SAH W hears this, she might put the kids in daycare and get a job to try to assist with the finances. When in reality, the H's receiving love language is domestic support, and his W just shot that to heck.
You say that you were shocked that your W didn't feel loved. If she asked, could you itemize for her the things that you did that you did strictly out of love for her? I mean really give an itemized list? I have this conversation with my H all the time. "I just don't feel loved by you." "What?! I'm constantly doing things for you!" "Like what?" "Everything I can think of!" "What are those things?" "Everything you ask of me!" "What do I ask of you?" "Not a hell of a lot!" "Actually, I don't ask you for anything." In spite of that conversation, I would bet a millions dollars we could have the same exact conversation every week. Some weeks, I'm sure we have.
And if you did provide her a list, how did she respond to items on the list. For example, if you said you gave her the day to herself to do whatever she wanted, while you went to play golf with your friends... I can imagine she might have rolled her eyes. If you think you were demonstrating your love, you should be able to provide her a list. If you provided her the list, she should have had some response.
SS, I can totally relate to the issues with the loving gestures. It's the "once bitten, twice shy" scenario. The worst part of it is that not only was it painful getting bit the first time, but your H doesn't even remember biting you and criticizes you for not putting your hand out again. For me, it's really hard to believe that he's "sorry" for chomping on you when he doesn't even remember it.
I have similar issues. One is my hobby of gardening. When we were first M'd, I asked H to join me. You would have thought I asked him to lick a dirty diaper. After about 8 years of this reaction, I stopped asking and developed a personal interest that didn't include him. In fact, it excluded him. I like the peace and quiet. I like the relaxation of not having to explain everything to him. I'm pretty knowledgeable now, whereas my H doesn't know any more than he did 20 years ago. Having him help me at this point would be like having the neighbor's 2yo help. Not a pleasure for me. Well now H is torqued that he can't do that anymore, but only because he can't think of anything current. Sorry, BTDT, not interested in opening that wound again.
My H would tell you that he would work for 80 hours a week if there were no me. Funny thing is? He would not be telling the truth. The man would be CONVINCED he was telling the truth, but he wouldn’t be. I worked in the same office with him for 15 years, including during our initial separation. During that time? At BEST, he worked 50 hours a week. But I suppose that’s a whole other conversation altogether.
Narcissist? Maybe. If you ask my mom, save my first boyfriend, I’ve paraded around a string of narcissists. And that’s my fault. I need a strong person to deal with my strong personality, but there is a big difference between a narcissist and a strong person. I just haven’t quite figured that out yet. And honestly? It’s very hard to pinpoint. At the beginning of a relationship, even the narcissist pretends to be interested. It’s when they get comfortable, tired or whatever you start noticing things… like having whole conversations with the person without them asking you a single time how you are doing. Easy to miss when you are in the fog of whatever…
I was completely and totally in love with my H and missed some danger signs. When he left me, well I gained some interesting perspective. This man adored me for years but that stopped somewhere along the way. And more and more he displayed tendencies to do things or make decisions that were not good for me. For instance, moving to TN. This was something I was dead set against… but no matter what I said or did, he was moving. And truly, CV? That was the beginning of the end. I fell into a depression that drove him away. He watched me in that state and did nothing but run. He needed to go find his happiness and I brought him down. And I suppose someone could make a good argument for him that he did the right thing. His friends and his parents certainly made that argument. Your W is depressed and not being a W, so you should go. But we are talking about why WE don’t feel love. That just wasn’t very loving to me. He could have come after me or run away from me. He chose to run. I feel that if there was any connection left, he would have stayed. During a lot of the separation, I was pretty convinced that I wanted him back. Definitely one of those, “be careful what you wish for moments” though because when he came back, I couldn’t let the fact that he ran go. And suddenly, in pretty quick order, this image of who I thought he was, the things I did admire about him, vanished in smoke.
Again, someone could EASILY make the argument that my inability to “forgive” is my fault. But, at the end of the day, it came down to I didn’t feel love the way I needed to feel love. I could love him all I wanted, but if I didn’t feel it back, what did it matter? So yes, it comes down to the actions in many ways. The words become virtually meaningless. And none of this is to say that I don’t come fully equipped with my own issues that made him feel unloved. I’m equipped with lots and lots of issues and faults. Thing is? He is not telling me that he feels unloved. He has apologized for leaving. He has said that he made a lot of complaints about me that were not true. He said that the depression I had hit him hard and he didn’t know how to deal with it. So what happens the next time I am depressed? The trust that he would take care of me when I need him most is GONE. In addition, he is an alcoholic, he’s a workaholic, he likes to party all weekend with his friends, he lies about where he is and who he is with and maintains a R with the woman he had an affair with (although, he denies that to this day). Interestingly, I finally told him the entire truth about the R I had for a year when he was gone. I was very honest. I guess I thought that MIGHT open the door to him being honest. Nope. That door was swiftly slammed in my face. Now, don’t get me wrong, this man is texting constantly and calling constantly and that is escalating by the second, but he’s UNWILLING to have a R that is based on truth and honesty (a place where I feel safest). So… I guess it was my turn to ramble… but does he love me? I still think so. But in a way that is totally contrary to what I need.
LIS, do you have the option of making him put his money where his mouth is? Figuratively, of course. It actually helps that you don't have kids because they aren't complicating life's decisions. Say, for example, you can't stand that he continues interacting with this other woman. Could you insist that he move and get a job elsewhere and never speak to her again? I'm not sure that would be applicable to anything, but at least it's a reasonable and viable solution. It's tangible, measurable and significant. I'm looking for something in which he's the one that has to invest, and significantly.
For me, when I was having so many problems with his kids and his ex, I couldn't very well demand that we move away and he never speak to any of them again. So here I am, 19 years later, still dealing with the ex BS.
I'm not trying to put you on the spot. It's the same thing I do for my own sitch. Is there *anything* they could do to get us over the hurdle? Obviously, bringing home a bouquet of flowers isn't going to offset the lying of the past, nor convince us that they will be honest in the future? I don't know that there is anything? Is it perhaps just a dead horse?
And I get the forgiveness thing. Forgiveness only changes how *you* feel about a past offense. It doesn't change *their* behavior, and it doesn't make you trust that they won't do it again. I, personally, am not interested in a R where there is no trust. Forgiveness doesn't change that.
I don't feel like you are putting me on the spot at all. It truly helps me to talk through these things. Here's what I asked for:
1) Stop drinking - When I agreed to reconcile it was following him coming home with the name and number of an outpatient program. He never did call. His drinking increased.
2) Stop talking to OW - Since asking this, he has a) taken trips with her b) had her at the house c) hung out with her and her friends d) friended 8 of her friends on Facebook e) kept contact through text messaging, e-mailing and facebook.
3) Stop spending every weekend away - Since asking this, he has not spent one weekend at the house. Not a single one.
4) Stop spending so much time at work - When I asked this, he was probably doing about 60 hours a week. He's now at 80 hours a week
Those were the top things I requested and the results I got.
As far as contact? He knows I've been in contact with my family at home including my uncle. That has tipped him off that I'm getting ready to do something, I think. I don't know for sure, but that is what I think. I don't have the patience to count the amount of text messages today but I'm up to my 9th call. I'm stressed out beyond human comprehension.
Are you taking his calls and responding to his texts? What is the context? Your requirements seemed pretty clear and pretty basic, and it seems pretty obvious he wasn't interested in accommodating them.
Or does your uncle have connections and he's fearing for his life? (Don't answer that! This is a public forum!)
LOL. While I am Italian and my uncle’s arms are bigger than my thighs, no he’s not worried about being threatened. He just knows that there are a few family members who want to come here and get me out of here. My uncle and my brother lead that parade. Yesterday, I got a call from my uncle while on the phone with H. I asked H to hang on because “Uncle xxx” was on the phone. Because of my confession of OM last week, he has been uneasy about who I am talking to even though I insisted it was over so that’s why I told him who it was. But I wasn’t thinking because that it was my uncle caused a bigger problem.
The text messages are largely antidotal (the weather, work, my job), they are a means of “making sure I’m still there.” The phone calls are a bit different. He keeps asking if I’m ok, or what’s wrong or something along those lines. And yes, I pick up most of the calls and answer the texts. I’ve always done that because I am not looking to be mean to him or anyone. The only exception to that is if/when we are fighting and things aren’t nice between us (as in the case of last weekend). I try my best to be kind and understanding that he is going through his own trauma and to cut him off is cruel. I see so many spouses do that to people on these boards and I see the pain people are in because of it and I can’t and won’t do that to him.
With that said, I just hung up with him after speaking for 2 ½ hours (thanks for keeping me company as I made my way through that). I am exhausted. It sounds like he’s willing to concede that we should divorce. Sigh. Sad. And relieved. Need to go to my friend’s house for now. Need to get out of here.
LOL! I guess I'm just one of those mean people then, because I just ignored my H's phone calls and text. I figure it isn't any worse than if I'm busy and can't answer the phone. Besides, I should be busy.
Honestly, though, things very much aren't nice between us at the moment. I know it makes you sad, I know it's not what you want. But I actually envy your H's concession. I am so tired of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. And I get so caught up in it that I'm wound like a spring, while he's busy watching Glee videos on Youtube. If you asked him, he would tell you that finding a fix to our M is "of paramount importance" to him. His exact words. Hmmmm, I didn't know you could find that on Glee....
So this comes back to my point that I don't care what he says, or what he "feels" about me, if what comes across is indifference and a complete lack of effort.
I'm glad you have friends close by! Enjoy your time with her!
(Don't answer that! This is a public forum!)