Yep, you set people off and it's not too difficult to see why. You are a very confident person. Some people read that as "cocky" rather than confident and in control of the situation.
LOL! Anything but! Well then maybe that's why it's mostly when it's in writing and not in person. I will sometimes reword something 10 times in writing. I can't do that in person. Also, no one can see me bite my fingernails or twitch my foot or look down or rub my head in confusion as I think this out. Body language adds a lot to an interaction. I don't like to set people off, and I'll do my best not to, but I'm not going to be artificial to do so. Like you said, to what end?
I'm sorry for your drama! Of course, sometimes that can help the healing. Sort of "sears over" the pain. I know every time my H does something rude to me, it puts one more nail in his coffin. So is your H still at the house with you? Or did he move out? And is OW officially an OW now? I thought he was denying that. I wish you were close enough that we could go have a margarita together. Of course one would become three and then we'd be messed up. Not all bad, though, maybe.
Well color me shocked! Never, ever, ever saw you as a nail biter! CV, I like the confidence and competence. And you know, after thinking about it, I really really think I misspoke a bit yesterday. I'm not sure you turn people off so much as they think you are strong and can handle a stronger approach. And you say you can. But the truth is? Some of it is too strong and a bit hurtful. I know people are only trying to help but the packaging is sometimes even more important than the message. But at the end of the day? I still insist on you being you.
Yeah, the drama, at least at the level and intensity it has been at, is completely new. I am in unchartered waters for me as I am not used to fighting like this. It is VERY VERY different from when he left me. He stays at the house, I think to lay claim more than anything. I have been bouncing around. He still insists that he wants to reconcile but his behavior is more and more outrageous and completely contradicts his words. I have found that I stopped, at least, trying to control it so much or trying to figure it out so much. Meaning, I'm finding more and more peace. I can't make him be what he isn't. I can't make him feel what he doesn't. The only question for me is what am I willing to live with? My mom and I had a long talk last night and she said something to me that COMPLETELY shocked me. She said, that over the last 2 1/2 years, I have changed far more than my H. The things I want, the things I value are much different than what I've expressed before. It's something for me to think hard about. I have a lot of anger regarding the affair and have focused on that without really understanding that it goes far, far beyond that. She said that as long as I continue down the path I'm on (changed values and goals), I will find that a lot of people in my life will be changing, not just H. Kind of sad, but true. Anyway, a lot of soul searching. I look forward to the day when I find my bliss and none of this is so very very painful.
Well thanks for the clarification. Didn't mean to pull the rug out from under you! I certainly don't want to put people off, but I can't say that I lose any sleep over it either. I try to operate my life in a very conscious manner, bordering on boring, or uptight even, because I simply don't do spontaneous well. So most things I do/say, I wouldn't change anyway, at least until I learn some new information and choose differently. I agree that even a strong message can be delivered in a compassionate way. But I also think that requires some personal skill, and not everyone has that. I've been known to fall short myself many times, in spite of my efforts to that end.
Was your mom commending you on your changes? Changes that result from a sitch like yours can go either way. Finding peace is a good sign of positive change.
It doesn't surprise me that your friends will change. The ones that don't were your only true friends anyway. Like people that hoard around people that have money, and when the money dries up, they disappear. Consider it a blessing in the long run.
Are you and your H actually fighting? Like verbally or physically? Or was this more of an internal "defend your turf" sort of thing? The contradiction in his words and actions is something I deal with my H, too. It is soooooo frustrating! It's like he can't connect the dots. I don't know if it's complete denial on their part, or if they just think we're blithering idiots and can't see it, or what it is. I completely get that everyone has their own perspective, but there are some truths in life that simply aren't subject to interpretation. I wish they couldn't talk, because for me, being a naturally trusting and compassionate person, I fall for H's BS, then kick myself later for being duped yet again. I feel like Charlie Brown with Lucy and the football.
Yes, we must be true to ourselves... something I definitely need to work on more. LOL. You kind of did pull the rug out from under me! But this is not always the best forum to get to know people I guess.
I'm not sure that my mom was making any commentary on my changes other than she said that I seem far less willing to mold myself to my H than I used to. She just said that the things I wanted were different now. What was important to me was different now. I'm not sure she really called it good or bad... just different. For instance, my career used to be a lot more important than it is now. I suppose that's how I defined success. I define it quite a bit different right now. I regret not having children. She said there's still time but I just don't think so. Things like that...
I so know what you mean by the Charlie Brown thing. I really do. I just think it goes beyond that. I think somewhere that we know that these men love us and I believe they do. Listen, CV, when I thought my marriage was over, I dated. Lots and lots of fish in the sea. And they like you for awhile... mostly as a ploy to get into your pants... but love you? No. That's much harder to find. And there is some cold comfort in at least having people that love us even though we don't feel our needs being met. Does it make it right? I'm not sure I'm trying to defend that. I'm just really trying to get down to the reasons we stay stuck for so long.
Don't beat yourself up on your impression of me. First, you're right, it's not the format to get to know someone intimately. But also, I do seem to manage that illusion somehow, without even trying. My BFF said something to me once in that regard. We used to manage a big children's Christmas affair at our church. With anything big, you always have some unexpected issues come up. She told me she's so impressed on how I never got rattled, just took a second or two to think then implemented a solution. Internally, I was thinking, "Oh, cr@p!" Another time I was on tv for a little demo/bit. It was live television. I was so nervous, I kept resting my hands on the table so the camera wouldn't pick up on me shaking. All my friends that watched told me they had no idea that I was nervous, that I looked completely comfortable and natural. LOL! To me, it's like they're talking about someone else. I guess I'm so used to feeling nervous or scared that I've developed the ability to plow through it with no one noticing.
I wish we all had a mirror that would show us what other people see when they look at us. I think it would be helpful AND entertaining!
First, you could definitely have children still. It's harder when you get older, because you just don't have the energy you did when you were younger, but still definitely manageable. Plus, you have a different outlook on life when you get older that I think makes me a better mom than I would have been when I was younger. Don't get me wrong, I definitely envy my parents who were done raising my brother and me before they even hit 40. But we were VERY poor when I was young, so it's a tradeoff in every aspect. I don't want to encourage you or discourage you, because that's really a decision you need to make for yourself. I just don't want you to think it's not an option. (ps. My DS12 is adopted, FYI, but that's a story for another book. )
I'm glad to hear that you've changed. That's good. And not just because it sounds like your H is bad for you, but because I believe we're supposed to change. I can't imagine having the same outlook on life that I had when I was 25! I look at these kids that I'm going to school with and I just want to roll my eyes and "set them straight about life." But that's what experience is for. We learn, we grow. What would it say about us if we didn't?
I don't know, is it that we know they love us, or simply want them to love us, because we love them? I wouldn't swear with my hand on a Bible that my H loves me. I just can't reconcile so much of his behavior with him having loving feelings toward me.
I don't know, the more you describe yourself, the more I think I'm right. Being strong doesn't mean you aren't scared. Bravery is doing something in the face of fear. You are always willing to do something. That's bravery, that's strength and it requires confidence. Many people would refuse to get in front of that camera. Many would collapse when faced with crisis. You do it afraid? Pftttt... Nope, I had it quite right, I think.
My first marriage ended after my 3rd miscarriage. While it wasn't THE reason, it was definitely the proverbial straw. I was afraid to try again because it hurt so much. I met my H and he didn't want children and I thought it was perfect. Several years ago, it was discovered I had an undiagnosed thyroid disorder which is known to cause miscarriages. Did it cause mine? Who knows. But, I tell you, I've regretted my decision more and more about not trying again. And that cannot be with my H as he does NOT want children. But what? I mean I get divorced and meet a man in a couple of years? I mean at BEST, I'd be 43? Ugh. Not sure that's so fair to a child. Given the state of affairs my life's in? Pipe dream anyway...
You really don't know if he loves you? Hmmmm... I really really believe my H does (I think yours too). I'm not saying the love us the way that we need... show it the way that we need, but I think they do. Their actions absolutely betray their words and that was the final straw for me. But does my H love me? Yeah, I'm willing to lay down a lot of money on that bet.
Their actions absolutely betray their words and that was the final straw for me. But does my H love me? Yeah, I'm willing to lay down a lot of money on that bet.
See, this I simply can't rationalize. This isn't a matter of a child feeling like their parent doesn't love them because they disciplined them, when the parent has a larger perspective on things and is operating with a vision for the long term. This is an adult interacting with an adult. This sounds like what a woman says when she's been beaten nearly to death and still goes back to her husband. Maybe the issue is simply in our individual perspectives of the definition of "love." I see love as the action itself. If the action isn't forthcoming or appropriate, then I could care less what the person "feels." My H says the right things, so I know he gets the concept of what he's supposed to do, but then why doesn't he do it? Plus, the feeling of love is very compelling, and causes people to do things to their own detriment. People that love strongly will die for someone, give them a kidney, go into debt, etc. How is it that our H's love comes out so negatively? I can't rationalize lying to my H to cover my own arse, "because I love him so much." Yet H lies to me.
Which is harder, I wonder.... being in a failed M where you believe your H loves you or believes he doesn't?
Their actions absolutely betray their words and that was the final straw for me. But does my H love me? Yeah, I'm willing to lay down a lot of money on that bet.
See, this I simply can't rationalize. This isn't a matter of a child feeling like their parent doesn't love them because they disciplined them, when the parent has a larger perspective on things and is operating with a vision for the long term. This is an adult interacting with an adult. This sounds like what a woman says when she's been beaten nearly to death and still goes back to her husband. Maybe the issue is simply in our individual perspectives of the definition of "love." I see love as the action itself. If the action isn't forthcoming or appropriate, then I could care less what the person "feels." My H says the right things, so I know he gets the concept of what he's supposed to do, but then why doesn't he do it? Plus, the feeling of love is very compelling, and causes people to do things to their own detriment. People that love strongly will die for someone, give them a kidney, go into debt, etc. How is it that our H's love comes out so negatively? I can't rationalize lying to my H to cover my own arse, "because I love him so much." Yet H lies to me.
Which is harder, I wonder.... being in a failed M where you believe your H loves you or believes he doesn't?
Wow, you two hit me with something. Last summer my W exclaimed in a very empassioned statement that was anger filled and sad at the same time. I wanted to reconcile. I could not understand why W was so angry and treating me so mean. I said to her "But I love you and always have", she replied in a rage "You never showed me love!" Then she stormed off to her room and slamed the door. I really, really was at a loss. I really believed I was showing her. telling her. I did love her...still do. I would reconcile in a heartbeat. We did the 5 LL's earlier in the year but she refused to share with me what she wanted. I still don't know fully to be honest. I tried all 5 but maybe spread myself thin on all...I don't know. CV, I do agree that lying should never be acceptable. I have been married to one too. It is like a habit. So, all the times she said she loved me right to the end, I guess she was lying then too.
M17 yrs. me49 xW47 d15 d11
BD1-Jul/11(Affair found out) Therapy 9 months (tried 2) BD2- May/12(sep) Court Jul/13 - I got 50/50 Sold home - Aug/13 Court #2 - Dec/13 Court#3 - Apr/14 ... She lost again We settled.
Ooooohhhh I like this discussion. I don't think I've always felt this way. In fact, I know I haven't always felt this way. But I do believe he loves me. So yes, I suppose it does come down to the definition of love. But loving someone doesn't mean we always do what the object of our love asks us to do. If we did, well, both of us would be lying in bed with our H's now. I agree love is an action. I will absolutely concede that point. But I don't think it's an action that is always what we want. In the case of our H's, it's most often not. This is why a book like the 5 LL's is so popular. My H thinks that he shows love by working 80 hours a week and buys me nice things. He honest to God believes that. For a long time I felt working 80 hours a week showed he did NOT love me.
As far as the lying. Yep it's hurtful and downright damaging. I told my H that I didn't believe a single word that came out of his mouth anymore. He lies and he manipulates. But, as sick as it is, he does this to avoid having a problem with me. I suppose one could have the argument that if he loved me, he wouldn't lie. Except, I've lied to him as well. I've done that to avoid a problem and, in some cases, to avoid hurting him. I did realize in the end, that was more damaging, and did come clean on a whole bunch of feelings, but I don't believe I lied because I didn't love him.
My dad has Crohn's disease. Several years ago, following an operation for a perforated bowel, my dad developed sepsis (survival rate about 33%). He was in ICU and battling for his life, but it was becoming obvious to the doctors that he was not going to make it. So one afternoon, I received a call to get to the hospital immediately to say goodbye. I was in the ICU for several hours with my family and my stepmother and to my shock, my mother (who has been divorced from my dad for 30 years at this point), walks in having driven for nearly 5 hours to get there. She goes into my father's room and is in there for about an hour. She held his hand, she sang to him, she talked to him... and then she comes out. She's in tears but she looks at both my brother and me and tells us, "Your father isn't going to die. But you cannot leave him alone. I want you to sit in there and hold his hand. He needs all of us to love him through this." (She turned out to be right). It struck me how much my mom loved my dad. While she was the one who initiated the divorce, she loved him. And my dad has always expressed that he loved my mom and regretted the divorce. But during the marriage BOTH of them were responsible for some pretty bad things. She had an affair and he was a raging alcoholic.
So... maybe it is that love isn't enough. We have to have people who show us love the way we need. We need people of a healthy mind. We need to have compatibility in values. But I like what Floyd had to say here and it's definitely food for thought.
It is hard walking away from a M where you believe your H loves you. Very hard. Like I said, it's not always a nice world out there. There was a certain level of safety with him. But that safety is gone. I, like you CV, cannot survive in an environment that is full of lies and manipulation. I'm very black and white. And I don't survive well in an environment that isn't. But, is it worse? Nah. I think leaving any M for any reason is damn painful. I just don't like being the one having to make the choice.
I now believe it's up to us to show people how to love us. Through communicating our needs, by setting boundaries and being authentic to ourselves. I don't think we have the right to try to control or manipulate them or the situation. If they can't love us the way we need to be loved, we either have to accept that or move on.
My H told me I didn't make him feel loved and w Wanted anymore, so I asked him for examples. I got 1: you could write me little notes and put them with my lunch. Umm, sorry but I used to do that until one day, he didn't see it, it fell out, his friends from work seen it and they laughed at him. I got abused for it, so I stopped. 2: you could call me sometimes when I'm at work, just to say hello, Yeah, been there, done that, got abused and stopped. 3: well you could send me a text here and there saying you love me. Wow, remember when **** looked at your phone and seen that text, who got abused for it? There was more but It was the same pattern. Been there, done that, got abused and stopped.
In summary, every example he could give me to make him feel more wanted, I'd done, been abused for it and stopped. So he wanted me to keep doing these things for him, even after him yelling and banging around?
The thing was, most of these things I'd stopped doing like five or six years ago. He may have just grown and changed since then and that's fine but it wasent communicated to me, until after he had already given up hope. Had he communicated earlier,.....
Relationships should be about control, manipulation and tit for tat. IMHO ( Which I have to add, is changing rapidly ATM) if your communicating, being open and honest, setting healthy boundries, being authentic to yourself and are open for compromise there's not much more you can do, except decide if your willing to accept it or not.
M: 29, H: 31 D: 9 S: 8 T: 13 Y M: 9 Y ILYBIDKIILWY 12/09/2012 ~~~~ Worrying does not empty tomorrow of its troubles. ~~~ it Emptys today of its strengths
