EXPERIMENTING with physical touch with W

[MrBond]

IMHO, I think you need to slow down. Take it slow on the GAL. It sounds like you're trying to GAL the same way you were trying to get your W back. You want it to be quick. Stick with the cooking first and go from there. You want to be sure you have the time and commitment to those you are volunteering for and not just as a way to get your mind off our M.

[25yearsmlc]

what adinva and Bond said.^^^

Big Brother is probably the last thing a working father should do now. It's time consuming and takes AWAY from your d time. Might even look as if you preferred having a son...

Cooking classes are great. Habitat is too, I volunteered at a woman's shelter partly b/c it was indoors and I was in Alaska. Not sure what the time commitments are w/Habitat and you need to do your time managment carefully.

Being the assistant coach of something might work, or the pottery class, which was very different for me b/c it's not "active" enough, was really cool. (You have to pay for the supplies no matter where you go, btw.)

Bond's point about wanting to do all of it at once DOES make me think you're trying to rush things. Like the "faster you do it, the faster she'll return" but that's not what GAL is about. Please wrap your brain around that.

Also You are opening a 2nd business now. You say you are learning to delegate. But taking a class or two, while taking care of your d is probably quite enough.

You may end up being a single father too, so you need to realize you'll have to have enough flexibility to accomodate that possibility. It IS a possibility.

As for the sex, it's ironic that you did Not want it so much before...and now it's on your mind so much. I think gabby's suggestion is the obvious one and we don't need details. But paying or having Sex with another woman now, unless you simply want revenge (NOT a suggestion!) isn't even a comprehensible comment to me.

So I'll leave it at that.

Good luck SM, I hope you make the changes you need to make and that your wife stops mistreating you very soon. Adinva's comments are right on. What if OM bores her and then she wants another man, again? How many will you tolerate before you act?

I hope you learn to stand up for yourself in a healthy strong, manly way. That will probably be the most likely way to get her respect, but the goal has to be you getting your self respect back.

Like you said, the paradox is that we SOMETIMES get our WASs attention most when we seek it the least.

We move on in our lives, knowing, finally, that we'll be alright with or without our spouses...that we'll be happy, even without them.

So maybe they'll come back (it's certainly MORE likely if we've GAL and regained our self esteem/respect)

but IF they don't return, we'll be happy in our new lives, that much faster.

And if they do look our way, they'll see a more attractive spouse to return to. But you will have a lot of work to do if she does want back in.

Do you honestly feel if she returned home tomorrow and said "Okay I'm back. Let's not talk about OM, but let's stay m b/c now I am willing to be w/you..."

& that you'd take her back, and things would all be better?

You'll both need tools for restoring your m. Piecing is not easy.

Thankfully, you are getting some tools now from a DB coach. Stay with that.

But listen carefully to ALL of what she says, and do not 'Edit" what you tell her.

That doesn't serve your cause. Full disclosure does.

Good luck!

[SM34]

Adinva, AnotherStander, MrBond and 25, thank you so much for your positive words of encouragement. i would like to answer some of your questions, as well as comment on things you said so that you guys can help me further.

This post will contain things about my W, but only because the questions you all asked refer to her, and NOT because I am CODEPENDENT or obsessed =). So here goes....

Adinva wrote:

I'm impressed with the way that you argue and fuss and write and write and sometimes listen. Because the guys that come here, who say one thing, get some flak, and come right back on in the next breath saying "you're right!!! I've learned!!! I've got it now!!!" are honestly not going to get anything out of this. You might.

Thank you! I'm sorry i argue sometimes, but I'm a passionate about what I believe, and I consider myself to be intelligent so I like to think, and argue, and twist the point =). My father always says I should have been an attorney. Of course, I am trying to bench this approach so I can learn as much as possible from all of you. Please bare with me.

Adinva wrote:

You're probably not the best candidate for a big brother bc you have a 3yo you are already challenged to get home by 5:30

Yes I think you are right. AnotherStander and 25 also made the same comment. I wouldn't want to take time away from my D3 which is why GAL has been difficult. Also, 25 is right, I don't want W to think I would have rather had a son. Funny enough, I was always happy to have a girl. My W is the one that wanted a boy! She was a little upset, and even said one time "I don't want a girl" when she was pregnant. I told her just you wait until she is born, you will love her more than life itself. And I was right...

Adinva said:

In the end, in my opinion, the only way you aren't in the "friends" category is you refuse to be cuckolded by your W. You move her out of your bedroom and you set some boundaries about how you will be treated in your own home (some of which I believe you have been doing).

Again, you are spot on. My W has never spent a night on our bedroom with me. In fact, she said she is sleeping on the couch the day BEFORE BD and thats when I knew something was wrong. She spent two nights in our bed recently and I slept in the guest room, but only because she was very sick and I wanted her to get a decent nights sleep (we have a kick ass tempurpedic king mattress and the guest room has a crappy futon). Once she felt better, I took over the bed again =).

I have set some boundaries and I refer to the house as "My house" which is completely out of character for me. I'm just about the most selfless person you will every meet.

As far as money, i give my W money to do ALL the usual house stuff, and pay for her dinners, give her money to take D3 out and buy her clothes etc.. but I draw the line at money for trips to OM. We have a drawer where I put our cash, and I always know how much is in there. The last time she went to OM, I found that $40 was missing. I didn't message her and thought I would wait until she got back and confront her. When she walked in the door, before I said anything, she took out the $40 and said "Here is the money, I didn't use any of it. It was just in case of emergency".

I don't want to sound naiive but my wife is really a good person. I would not be hanging around trying to fix this if she wasn't. I read many people's sitch and think wow he needs to dump her ass! But my wife really is respectful of how hurtful this is for me. She is warming up to me big time now and I almost feel she is beginning to regret what she is doing. But I don't want to get a head of myself. I read an excellent response by someone on a different thread when asked my the LBS if they were doing the right thing by trying to save the M. the answer was "Is your wife a good person who is doing something bad, or a bad person doing something bad?". I believe my W is a good person who is thoroughly confused and does not see that she has a big hand in her own happiness, and that other people cannot bring you happiness. She has had this issue her whole life according to my MIL. She needs to learn that each person is responsible for their own happiness, and once you are a happy person you will have a happy life. And also your husband will react differently to you =). Yes I haven't forgotten I need to change some things too of course, just explaining why i give her so much slack for what she is doing to me.

AnotherStander said:

Being a Big Brother is a HUGE commitment and if you change your mind later or find yourself too busy then you will really crush a young boy's hopes.

Yes I would HATE to put a little boy through that. Plus as you can all tell, I am an extremely loyal person and I will go many extra miles to please. So if I couldn't come through for a little boy I would be crushed. Best to leave that alone until I am in a better place in my life. Definitely on my to do list for later in life though. As is adopting a child! I SOOO want to adopy a child one day...so does my wife. Hopefully we can recover our relationship so we can carry out our dream one day.

MrBond said:

IMHO, I think you need to slow down. Take it slow on the GAL.

I think you are right. But I really want to meet new people because honestly it is sad that I have no friends. I'm a great guy and I'm fun to be around. The friendships i have had throughout my life have been awesome, and I still have friends who are thousands of miles away who still call and contact me because I was special in their life.

Also, I feel like my W is almost waiting for this to happen!! Its weird, and I will comment on this in my next post because I want to answer everyone's questions first. But please do read my next post and see if it sounds crazy.

25 said:

As for the sex, it's ironic that you did Not want it so much before...and now it's on your mind so much.

25 don't make fun of me! =). It really wasn't like that. As I said before, I was a once or twice a week person, and my wife was an every day or every other day person. I really couldn't go one whole week without the warm embrace of my wife! Now it has been 2.5 months and it is crazy how much I miss it (with her). But 2.5 months is much MUCH longer than one week... my sex drive wasn't THAT bad guys...

25 said:

What if OM bores her and then she wants another man, again? How many will you tolerate before you act?

This an interesting question, and the answer in my opinion goes back to the point I made before about W being confused. I would NOT, absolutely no way, tolerate another OM. There is no way, and i she will be out before she has finished telling me about it! The thing is my W has not had any other relationships with anyone in her life (except me). I'm not excusing what she is doing, but there is almost a sense in my mind that she needs to get this doubt out of her system if we can have a loving marriage for the 40 or so years we have left on this planet. Or, if not, then we separate now. I can't go my whole life with someone who feels they didn't get to experience life, and think maybe there is someone else who is better for them.

2.5 years ago she was at her friends wedding (OM's brother and sister in law's wedding) and she met the now OM. I could not make it to the wedding because I had family from overseas who had flown to USA for my daughters 1st birthday. When W came back she said she had a lot of fun and she met Bob
's brother (we will call him Bob). She said Bob's brother is a really call guy. he is just like you! he is a nerdy, techie guy like you, and you would really get a long with him. I didn't think anything of it, and there was nothing else that night. But obviously my W had a little crush on him somehow.

So, now that he is single, he reached out to her. Because we are in a bad place with the stresses of D3, finances etc.. ( no need to go through them all again, you all know)... W opens up to him and quickly finds herself in an EA.

It probably sounds weird but this is the ONLY guy she has ever mentioned being "cool, and just like me". because she has always said there is NO ONE like me or could even come close. So I feel that if (or when) this relationship collapses, she will learn many things from this experience. The most important one for her is that she has to bring herself her own happiness. The important lesson for our marriage, is that we have something special and even when she took a risk and put her whole life on the line, she couldn't find anything close to what we have together. At that point I would say she would be done with looking for someone else.

People who know me say that I am an "old soul" and so even though I met her when I was 20 and many in my situation would feel they haven't gotten to live their life either, i do not have those feelings. A lot of guys would take this opportunity to scr$w anything that moves at this point, to make up for 14 years of monogamy. But I like to think I am wise, and I know there is nothing better out there. I may find a very nice woman, and if need be I WILL find a very nice woman. But what would make me feel that my life would be any better? I don't wait for my W to bring me happiness. I am a driven, business type person and I get satisfaction out of succeeding in my ventures, and having a beautiful family. My wife looks for happiness externally and that is a dangerous thing which she must get over if she is to be happy in life (with or without me).

25 said:

Do you honestly feel if she returned home tomorrow and said "Okay I'm back. Let's not talk about OM, but let's stay m b/c now I am willing to be w/you...

No absolutely not! There would be SO much we would need to talk about and get out in the open. She would need to learn to trust that her husband loves her and that she we are blessed to have each other and our beautiful daughter. She would need to learn to bring herself happiness, through a career, or hobbies, or reading or something. ... She has always told me "I don't have anything to look forward to everyday like you do". This was about the fact that I have my own business. I tried to help her set up her own business but she didn't want to be expected to contribute money to our life. I tried to make her a stay at home mom, but she was not honest enough to me and herself, that this was not fulfilling for her.


In short, what she is going through is a battle with her inner self, not with me. Its almost like a mid life crisis I guess. She is the only one who can confront those thoughts she has about what her purpose in life is, and why she is not happy deep inside. She thinks it is because of me, and that OM makes her feel incredible, but she can't let go of me or what we have. I have to let her learn this lesson, the hard way unfortunately. And i love her enough to stay out of the way of her learning because it is the only hope we have of spending the remainder of our long life and potential M as a happy couple. Again, of course I have things that I need to work on to make myself a better husband for her, but most of this sitch is caused by her inner demons. her mom has said she could see this coming because W complained to her before that her life was not fulfilling.

I think I answered the questions so that perhaps that will help you all understand where I am in my life. It is not so much that I am weak, and she is manipulating me. I like to think I am actually very strong, and confident in myself enough to allow her to make this mistake, knowing that she will realize the mistake and learn from it, and we can have a wonderful rest of our life. OR, she doesn't learn Sh$t, we get divorced and I move on with my life =)

[SM34]

IS IT POSSIBLE A WAW CAN BE TRYING TO TELL THE LBS WHAT HE NEEDS TO DO TO BECOME MORE ATTRACTIVE TO HER?

I wonder nowadays if my W is trying to tell me what to do to become more attractive to her. We already established she doesn't seem to be done with me, and that she is undecided between OM and myself. I am really her best friend (I know, best friends don't do this to each other), her loyal and faithful companion since she was 17, the father of her only child, the person who has made her life as comfortable as is possible. OM makes her feel incredible, although I suspect it is the "Love chemicals" that are making her feel incredible, not OM himself. With two children from a failed relationship, and then another failed relationship where his girlfriend left him for another woman, I hardly think he is good at making people feel special.

Anyway, lets focus on this bizarre feeling i have. DR and members of the DB forum offer specific advise to the LBS on what they need to do with themselves in order to MAYBE become attractive to your WAW. They are as follows:

1) Address the issues or concerns your WAW had with your M
2) Become the best father in the world (if you are not already. if you are, then try even harder).
3) GAL, make new friends, take up new hobbies.

These are out of the divorce busting "playbook" if there ever was such a thing. Now, has anyone heard of or felt that their WAW is looking at the same playbook and guiding you through these things????

Here is what my wife has done:

1) Addressing the issues: She has asked me twice if the vitamins my Dr told me I need to take in order to up my sex drive are "going well". Why would she be concerned if we are divorcing? Does she want me to be a stallion for my future spouse?

2) Become an awesome father: I think if asked my wife would say I am a very VERY supportive spouse when it comes to our daughter. I changed diapers and fed the baby from day one. I did most of the night shift so wife could sleep, even though I still had to get up early and work a 8 to 10 hour day. I have NEVER missed a prenatal appointment with W, never missed a sonogram session, and now have never missed a pediatricians appointment for our daughter. I leave my business and meet my W at the dr office to be there for her, or for D3 when they are going to the dr even for a routine checkup. Seriously I have not missed one single appointment! I don't care what is going on in my life or my business, I WILL be there for them no matter what.

But, the day of BD she kept telling me "Hang out with D3, and take your mind off things". I thought she just wanted to me enjoy myself and not think about what she just told me.

However, she is still saying things like "You know what would be really cool? if you took D3 to the zoo to show her the animals".. Then when I am there, she messages me to tell me "Send me pics of you guys!". Isn't that what we tell each other here on the forum? Do fun things with the kids and send your WAW pics of you enjoying yourself so she knows what she is missing? Why is she telling me what she thinks would be a great time, and then asking me to show her how much fun we are having without her?

She also sends me many MANY pics of D3 throughout the day, every day. Lately, they have also included self shots of her and D3 smiling or hamming it up for the camera. W is always smiling in the pics as if to say look how cute we are. She also makes sure the camera is angled such that there is a lot of cleavage in the pic. And she puts titles to the pics like "Your girls". WTF??

3) GAL, make new friends, start a hobby: At the begginning when i mentioned I might go out with the guys from work, she would so "Oh really? Where to?". Now it seems it is guided...like "hey you guys should go to ______ this weekend". Or "It would be very cool to take your employees out for dinner tomorrow".

On the friends thing, she says "You should call so and so and see what he is up to". The other day I wanted to mention the cooking class I want to take to see what she would say. I said "You know what i want to do? I want to take a cooking class! I found one that is once a week for 3 weeks, and it is $150". She said "That is an awesome idea! You love to cook and you can meet new people and make new friends! Livingsocial has deals for cooking classes, I'll look it up and find a good deal for you".

I keep saying she is acting like nothing is going on. But lately it has felt like there is more to it, almost like she has a copy of DR and she is guiding me through the things that I lost touch with in our M, the things that would make me more attractive. She said "I would need to fall in love with you again" back on BD and its almost like these are the things that will help that. Even when I mentioned that i wanted to buy some dumbells because I don't have time to go to the gym but I can curl some weights while watching TV in the evening, she said "Very cool. Then you can get those sexy arms back".

What gives?

[SM34]

Gabbysmom these last two posts were in response to the question posed by adinva and 25. The question was what if W got bored with OM and wanted to date other men.i was trying to illustrate why I thought that would not be the case.

Nevertheless, Thank you for reading my post and responding.

[SM34]

I think I am ready to schedule my second coaching session with Laurie. Will probably set it up for day after tomorrow.

My findings are that W did not display any discomfort nor did I sense any pull back in the days following touch. I was able to sit next to her on the couch, touch her, touch her hair. All things that Laurie asked me to try.

One interesting thing happened that i will need to tell Laurie about. I have a bad back from a car accident 15 years ago. For christmas, my W bought me a neck massager and said it was to "replace" her so I can give myself massages after she is gone.

Last night I mentioned my back was hurting again. I have said this several times since BD and gotten no response, or at the most a suggestion to take some Ibprofen.

Yesterday for the first time, my W said lay down and I will rub your back for you. I laid down and she rubbed my back for probably 20 minutes. This is the most touch that she has initiated since BD!!

I will take that as a baby step and report to Laurie.

Tickets arrived for Saturday night show. Its Theresa Caputo the long island medium. Wife was surprised that I actually took the time to set this up for us. She is very excited. She said I'm going to call my mom and see if she can keep D3 for the night and then when i told her I already set that up too, she was extra surprised! She said thank you so much for taking care of all the plans for a great evening. She always told me i wish you would show initiative, I wish you would just plan something for us without asking me my opinion on everything. So here we are...

[MrBond]

I would hold off on your coaching session. You haven't even done any consistent changes yet in order for you to make a report.

Stop looking at EVERY little move she makes and see what she does consistently on a regular basis. Then when she really changes, you can report to your coach to see what your next step will be.

YOU ARE RUSHING THINGS AGAIN! You haven't even started your GAL yet and you're concentrating everything on your W again.

Shows you haven't learned anything and/or aren't listening.

[SM34]

I really wasn't focusing on my wife again. Laurie asked,me to call her after I had made notes in how much physical touch my W would allow.

Also the previous posters had asked,me the questions that relate to my W.

That's why I had the disclaimer about these posts not being due to me being codependent.

Also I would not want to be intimate with W while she is seeing OM. I don't like the idea of a love triangle and I believe her ethics would not allow it. She has flat out refused me completely because she views herself as his woman now. I think that is why Laurie. Interested in how much physical touch she would allow. I will have to ask laurie exactly what we are trying to establish.

For me and my sanity, I am trying to focus on the GAL activities and the launch of my new business which is on one week. It is too early in my sitch to worry about W. I was really just reporting an update.

Back to my GAL! I am going out with friends on friday night for a crazy night on the town. Saturday wife and I go to Theresa Caputo show. Sunday I reserved for the zoo with D3.

Next week I have a tight schedule for retail store #3 launch! So excited !

[MrBond]

"I really wasn't focusing on my wife again. Laurie asked,me to call her after I had made notes in how much physical touch my W would allow."

Still too soon. It's only been one time. See if she returns any physical touch ON HER OWN and not a time when you initiate or ask for it.

"Also I would not want to be intimate with W while she is seeing OM. I don't like the idea of a love triangle and I believe her ethics would not allow it. She has flat out refused me completely because she views herself as his woman now."

No one said anything about intimacy. You have to stop thinking in extremes and think more gray actions. Little things add up to big ones.

"Saturday wife and I go to Theresa Caputo show."

So you two still go out even though she's seeing another guy?

[SM34]

Mr Bond thank you for your awesome insight as usual. I have a few questions or comments:

Still too soon. It's only been one time. See if she returns any physical touch ON HER OWN and not a time when you initiate or ask for it.

When my W offered to give me a back rub and then rubbed my back for about 20 mins, is this not her initiating on her own? Or is it because I mentioned my back hurts and that is kind of a hint? I have said that before and got no response.

No one said anything about intimacy. You have to stop thinking in extremes and think more gray actions. Little things add up to big ones.

This was in reference to gabbysmom comment. She said why would you want to be intimate touch with W while she is seeing OM. I was clarifying that i dont want actual sex with W while seeing OM but I was doing the touch test that Laurie asked me to do and report back.

The thing is my W believes our M to have been sex starved. So, not touching her or showing some kind of affection is probably "more of the same" which I think is why Laurie wants to establish how much touch my W is willing to allow.

Another interesting point is one that 25 made a long time ago. Since W has asked how my vitamins are going, kind of hinting towards whether it has increased my libido, 25 said to be ready in case W ever wanted to "test the goods" so to speak. I guess if W ever thought of returning to the M, she would want need me to prove that this would no longer be an issue.

So you two still go out even though she's seeing another guy?

We really haven't been going out anywhere together since BD. I think we would all agree that their will be no working on the M until the A is over. Other sites like MB and MA advocate exposure tactics to bust of the A so it ends quickly.

Since we are following the DB way, and the methods of MWD, we like to pave the path home etc.. but I think at the same time it would be wise to employ some tactics to make the A as uncomfortable as possible, but using indirect tactics.

My MIL was a WAW from a emotionally and physically abusive marriage. Anyway, she is the one that told me that her A partner (who is still her husban now after 17 years) was very paranoid and had insecurities related to the chance of her leaving him like she did with her husband, and so any contact she had with H would start conflict. She is the one how suggested that I need to play on these insecurities that OM is sure to have. She said OM knows you have the stronger position because you have 14 years with her, you have a beautiful daughter, a house together, etc.. and he has nothing.

She is betting that OM is very insecure about this, and cannot stop himself from thinking that W will not be able to leave all of that for him. Which is why we think he messages her literally every 3 minutes the entire day, to where sometimes I sense it is getting irritating for W. I know she will feel he is clingy at some point.

So, to play on the insecurities, I am trying to involve her in some things I do. This show was a perfect idea. Theresea Caputo is W's favorite show on TV and she wouldn't miss the show for the world. Also, it is on a Saturday night, and W has spent ALL saturday nights with OM since BD.

So, I played it smart. I said "I am going to see the Thereasea Caputo show on Feb 9th, its a Saturday. Would you like to join me?".. wifes face lit up and she was SO excited that I had asked her to come along.

When I ordered the tickets, and scheduled MIL to keep D3 for the night, I also showed her I am capable of planning a night and executing, something she said I was not capable of during our M. AND, I forced her to tell OM she is going out to spend the evening with her H on a saturday night, and D3 will not be there to cramp our style. So MIL is sure that will play on OM's insecurities and create the conflict that we need to create within the A.

My W messages me throughout the day with nice mesages, asks how my day is going, if I have eaten etc... but when she is with OM nowadays she doesn't. We are wondering if he is putting some pressure on her to show him that she is over me.

So, although it is kind of lame to participate in this love triangle, and I don't intend on doing this indefinitely, I think it is smart to force them to confront the fact that I am in her life and she enjoys my company. I am having to face the fact that she enjoys OM's company, so why should he not have to do the same?

Mr Bond, what are your thoughts on this tactic? I know it is not really DBing necessarily, but DB says to do what works. And advice from a WAW suggests that this actually works to create friction. Your thoughts...